Hebrew 6:1-11

When we try to adjudicate who we give money to and who is worth it, we play God.... I have a tough time with this one. It looks black and white in scripture. But it makes no sense sometimes knowing who I'm giving to. But I am guessing that Gideon didn't understand what he was doing but obeyed God anyway....
 
Paul said, "if a man will not work, neither let him eat." Which means there are instances where we judge whether a person ought to receive charity. That's not to say that all homeless people, for instance, are unwilling to work, only to say that I'm not so sure that we are automatically obligated in all cases to give without asking questions. I just wanted to throw that in there, though I would rather have commented after reviewing the relevant verses to see if they say what I think I remember them saying. Time is my enemy.
 
Rumely,

I certainly see why that verse came to mind, but I think the context of charity within the church, contrasted to Christ saying if they want the coat, give them the shirt too, requires a lot of reconciling. In a pragmatic sense, when people are asked and expected to make that sort of judgement call, they almost always err on the side of caution, not on generosity, which seems to be spitting on the coat/shirt, thought.

Also I would object that had Gideon judged the directive from God, man's reasoning would have called the army back and gone to war for what sort of results? Its a fine line to balance I think. And what I see in most Churches I have been familiar with they miss the call from Jesus' comments.
 
Aenon said:
I know a lot of people refuse to give money to the homeless because "they will just go buy more alcohol." However, we are not responsible for people abusing our charity. Abuse of charity is not a disqualification of charity itself. We can't allow people to harden our hearts to a "need." I am convinced God made me a magnet for these people, because people walk up to me all the time, in need of something. It is my job from then on to give charity (1 Cor 13) to express my love for the Lord (Mat 25:40). I do however think we should call these people out on certain addictions if we observe them and help them get away from that.

Also, charity isn't just for the person in need, either. One time a homeless guy was waiting outside a place called "Pita Pit," asking for money for food. So I took him inside and bought him whatever he wanted. The cashier and the other employee working there were so perplexed by my buying him a meal. They both knew he was waiting outside their business all day, and I suppose they thought nobody was going to do anything. After I bought him a meal, one of the employees gave me about ten "buy one get one free" coupons and said "That was really nice of you to do." Charity impacts everyone who observes it.
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That is very true and I agree 100%. There are true homeless and helpless in our world but IMO they should not STAY that way.

All I am saying is that what we see is not what is going on. The Bible is very clear as Rumely pointed out that if we are to eat we are to work.

We can come up with one example after another but the bottom line is that a man should work.

We can say and quote Scripture after Scripture how we as believers are to show love and compassion toward others.
That is true and I agree.

Do you really think that the man who stands at the corner with a sign asking for money is not able to work???

Do you think that he is homeless ( ? ) or maybe he is just hiding so he will not have to pay child support for his 3 hungry children.???

Is he homeless or is he hiding from the police because of a rape he has committed??

Could it be that he is just lazy and knows that there are people who will support him??

Could it be that we as a society have taken "FAIRNESS' to the next level and are using the Scriptures to support that which is not Biblical but is instead HUMANITARIAN.

The Bible teaches ACCOUNTABILTY and RESPONSIBILITY.

Remember the old saying..............."give a man a fish and you feed one man one time. Give him a fishing pole and you will feed him for a life time".

Also............God made birds and God made worms but the bird has to go out and catch the worm or he dies.
 
While I understand where your argument is coming from, I also do not think it is as simple or easy as that. It isn't just "Oh he isn't working so therefore he is probably just lazy and doesn't want to work." I believe the vast majority of homeless people are not working because they have given up trying to find someone that would hire them. I've been unemployed for 6 months at one point in my life, without collecting any unemployment. I could not find a job, and it was extremely discouraging. There were moments where I found it hard to simply get out of the bed in the morning. I simply wanted a job, but a job was something I couldn't find. Homeless people most likely do not have College degrees or maybe even a Highschool degree. They also do not have a car. That alone makes it impossible to find a job, let alone get hired for one. Many employers will not hire people simply because they do not have reliable transportation.

This is why saying "Just get a job" is a very insensitive and ignorant thing to say.
 
This isn't "calling you out" or whatever people feel it is when they are questioned. I'm going to explain why I don't think what you thought might be, in the comment below, is what you thought it might be. :) How's that sentence?

Your vss are...

2Th 3:4 We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. (what they are DOING, leads them into the love of Christ)
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. (some in the CHURCH were leading unruly lives, not as they were taught. We are discussing ill behavior inside the Church here.)
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, (sets himself/themselves as the example.)
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you; (The example he/them uses is they didn't depend on the Church, they provided for themselves.)
2Th 3:9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example. (I think from other vss that teachers had a right to be compensated for their works, something a lot of evangelicals and Fraink VIola types of people like to overlook.)
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. (The context isn't in helping a homeless person. It's in context to the behavior of those inside the Church.)
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. (Emphasis it's in the Church.)
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. (The people he redresses are those he just mentioned inside the Church there.)
2Th 3:13 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.
2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

And if someone wishes to say that would cross over to the world, as well, I'd suggest that Paul also said....

1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Cr 5:13
But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. (Those outside the Church are God's to judge.)

Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. (We are the tools God uses to execute His will upon the earth.)
Mat 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;...........
.......continued...

Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

We are to not judge those outside of the Church (hard to determine if they are worthy or not without judgment of some sort.)
Like the example you brought up above, those within the Church live by other standards. Same as the Jews followed their laws, but "God fearers" didn't live by all the laws.
Those inside the Church are to work for their bread, which meant not be lazy and depend on the Church, which some of them are noted as doing in this particular church. AND His comments doesn't address someone down and out on life options either. The assumption we should make is those addressed are healthy and capable, as after the vss I posted He warns them to continue to DO GOOD....

We are the instruments God uses for sharing His love to the people.

And we are to love everyone, even our enemies, same as God does, just as completely. So, with the examples Jesus gave of loving neighbor being feed the poor, clothe the needy, etc...
I don't see how we have a right to determine someone who asks isn't worthy of charity. UNLESS they are a brother, in the Church, you have direct interaction with, and should call them out.

If they ask for your coat, give them your shirt.... matt 5, doesn't read if they NEED your coat.



Rumely said:
Paul said, "if a man will not work, neither let him eat." Which means there are instances where we judge whether a person ought to receive charity. That's not to say that all homeless people, for instance, are unwilling to work, only to say that I'm not so sure that we are automatically obligated in all cases to give without asking questions. I just wanted to throw that in there, though I would rather have commented after reviewing the relevant verses to see if they say what I think I remember them saying. Time is my enemy.
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...just a thought regarding the difficulties with evangelism...perhaps that is why we are told to "make disciples"? I understand the need to spread the gospel, and do not disagree with it. I just wonder if it's not enough to tell someone about the gospel, and see that person through to salvation, and leave it there, unless we know that person then has someone who can and will disciple him/her. I also agree that emotional appeals to people are not good. Sharing the gospel ought not be, IMO, an appeal to emotion. The one who hears the gospel in that way tends to be shaken when "bad" things happen. At least, that has been my experience/what I've seen happen.
I realize this isn't news to anyone--my bad if it came across in that manner. It's just what sprang to mind. :)
 
Abba's

BAM! What a conviction to lay on the Church. BOOM! Dead on!

But, here's the trick part to that question, "who was asked to make disciples, specifically?"

Your mind has good springs!
 
Aenon said:
While I understand where your argument is coming from, I also do not think it is as simple or easy as that. It isn't just "Oh he isn't working so therefore he is probably just lazy and doesn't want to work." I believe the vast majority of homeless people are not working because they have given up trying to find someone that would hire them. I've been unemployed for 6 months at one point in my life, without collecting any unemployment. I could not find a job, and it was extremely discouraging. There were moments where I found it hard to simply get out of the bed in the morning. I simply wanted a job, but a job was something I couldn't find. Homeless people most likely do not have College degrees or maybe even a Highschool degree. They also do not have a car. That alone makes it impossible to find a job, let alone get hired for one. Many employers will not hire people simply because they do not have reliable transportation.

This is why saying "Just get a job" is a very insensitive and ignorant thing to say.
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I can not agree with you with all respect to you.

I will also resist saying that your opinion is ignorant as you have said to me. There was no need to make such a comment to me or anyone else as we are simply talking and sharing. What is ignorant to you may be the gospel to someone else.

Being un-employed and homeless are two differant things. You say you were un-employed fopr 6 months. Were you also living under a bridge as well??? Did you stand on the corner with a sign that said "HUNGREY".

I do not believe that the "majority" of homeless are not working because they have given up trying to find a job. The truth is that 54% of all Americans are receiving a check from the govt. of some kind today. If the welfair ended, then they would be energized to find a job.

Jobs are out there friend. It may not be the job one wants or it may not be what one wants to get paid, but they are out there for those who will lower their standards in order to work.

Neither can I agree with this comment..........
"Many employers will not hire people simply because they do not have reliable transportation."

I hired and fired people for 30 years before retirement and I never asked how anyone planned on getting to work for me. IF they were able to get there for an interview, they are able to get there for a job offered.
 
Rumely said:
Paul said, "if a man will not work, neither let him eat." Which means there are instances where we judge whether a person ought to receive charity. That's not to say that all homeless people, for instance, are unwilling to work, only to say that I'm not so sure that we are automatically obligated in all cases to give without asking questions. I just wanted to throw that in there, though I would rather have commented after reviewing the relevant verses to see if they say what I think I remember them saying. Time is my enemy.
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I agree with you my friend.

I have been a member of only two churches in the past 30 years. Both have tried to help those who are in financial trouble. Both in fact did and still do help those who are actually in need. Both have food banks at no charge to those who are hungry. My church now pays for medical bills and doctor vists for its members who can not afford them.

I am not trying to be insensitive here toward any one group, I am simple telling you that reality is differant from the pie in the sky Christianity some seem to be saying.

When the situation of those who ask for money are investigated, the results are overwhelming that those people are in the situation they are in it by choice.

Are some legitimate...YES. Are some totally unable to work because of health...YES. But not as many as we would seem to be thinking.

DO NOT send me a nasty comment. I am not being mean, I am just telling you what I have personaly seen and been involved in. Folks.......there are people who do nothing but look through the Yellow Pages of the phone book for address to churches to visit and ask for money. God help you if your church name begins with an "A or B or C". They are the first.

Now.........when someone comes to a church and asks for money, how many do you think will work for that church if offered????

The church may say.....We will give you $50.00 and all we ask is that you use our lawn mower and mow the yard for us. You would think the homeless would have no problem with that........THINK AGAIN!
 
Major said:
I can not agree with you with all respect to you.

I will also resist saying that your opinion is ignorant as you have said to me.
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That's a lie, you said it. Why say you aren't going to say it, right before you say it. Such passive aggressive try to leave your way out of being blamed/accused of being "unXian" is just an attempt to manipulate the audience so you can be a presumptive bully.

I'm going to resist admonishing you for saying you weren't going to do something, while you actually do it. I would never do such a thing..... Except in immitation of you.

Major said:
There was no need to make such a comment to me or anyone else as we are simply talking and sharing. What is ignorant to you may be the gospel to someone else.
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Of if only all the places you violated your own terms weren't deleted so you could be shown and held accountable.

Major said:
Being un-employed and homeless are two differant things. You say you were un-employed fopr 6 months. Were you also living under a bridge as well??? Did you stand on the corner with a sign that said "HUNGREY".
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Maybe HUNGRY, but no, no sign that says Hungrey. He didn't say he was without means to provide for himself, so why would he hold the sign out. Perhaps in another year he would have needed that assistance.

Major said:
I do not believe that the "majority" of homeless are not working because they have given up trying to find a job. The truth is that 54% of all Americans are receiving a check from the govt. of some kind today. If the welfair ended, then they would be energized to find a job.
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Welfare is evil. That's why a Xian nation adopted a means to provide for those in need. Tell everyone on the board one fact of life. IF THE CHURCH DID THEIR JOB AND TOOK CARE OF THE NEEDS OF GOD'S CHILDREN AS EXPECTED THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE WORLD WOULD HAVE NO NEED OF CHARITY.

Major said:
Jobs are out there friend. It may not be the job one wants or it may not be what one wants to get paid, but they are out there for those who will lower their standards in order to work.
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Ever notice people that use the word, "friend" in a sentence, anything but feel that way about the person they use it to? Sorry to interrupt you sir, NO you aren't or you wouldn't have done it.... same thoughts.... But perhaps the people are not qualified for the jobs that are available. A one legged man wouldn't get a good success rate at a butt kicking contest for example. It would be pretty hard to be a one handed welder, and impossible to keep up with productivity requirements. It would be hard to be a secretary if you were dyslexic, blah blah blah. Of course you'd have to stop pointing the finger and judging someone and get the facts to find out you were wrong, so the danger is those that think they are right and refuse to accept any challenge to their beliefs or comments.

Major said:
Neither can I agree with this comment..........
"Many employers will not hire people simply because they do not have reliable transportation."
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There is a reason it was made illegal to ask about transportation in an interview. But, heck, I can see plainly that you know more than the legal authorities.

Major said:
I hired and fired people for 30 years before retirement and I never asked how anyone planned on getting to work for me. IF they were able to get there for an interview, they are able to get there for a job offered.
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When you hire all the new hires in the country, then you will be elgible to make those. When someone refuses to consider things outside of their tight circle of beliefs and try to impose their reality or how they live their lives as what is the NORM in the world and the world is operating as they do, is a newsflash for unreasonable.

Pompous presumptive angry statements like this post annoy me and are a poor representation of the faith, or any organization that allows them to go unspoken against. It's one thing to speak strongly in defense of your beliefs, but to presume that YOUR life is the standard the world operates by is just incredible. To argue that something can't happen in the real world, because you didn't do it, is incredible. To argue that someone elses positions are wrong without taking the time to address them specifically, just expect everyone to accept them is incredible.

Good bye. This thread is done for me.

Aenon ty for your thoughts. And Abba's same to you.
 
When I can be shown a biblical example where Christ asked someone to mow the lawn, or coached His disciples to do the same before getting charity, I'll admit major has an argument.

Until then I will just conclude if Major was Gideon he would have attacked with 27K soldiers not 300 because God's order could not have meant anything as stupid as attack with 300, so it must be wrong and man needs to intervene.
 
Major said:
I agree with you my friend.

I have been a member of only two churches in the past 30 years. Both have tried to help those who are in financial trouble. Both in fact did and still do help those who are actually in need. Both have food banks at no charge to those who are hungry. My church now pays for medical bills and doctor vists for its members who can not afford them.

I am not trying to be insensitive here toward any one group, I am simple telling you that reality is differant from the pie in the sky Christianity some seem to be saying.

When the situation of those who ask for money are investigated, the results are overwhelming that those people are in the situation they are in it by choice.

Are some legitimate...YES. Are some totally unable to work because of health...YES. But not as many as we would seem to be thinking.

DO NOT send me a nasty comment. I am not being mean, I am just telling you what I have personaly seen and been involved in. Folks.......there are people who do nothing but look through the Yellow Pages of the phone book for address to churches to visit and ask for money. God help you if your church name begins with an "A or B or C". They are the first.

Now.........when someone comes to a church and asks for money, how many do you think will work for that church if offered????

The church may say.....We will give you $50.00 and all we ask is that you use our lawn mower and mow the yard for us. You would think the homeless would have no problem with that........THINK AGAIN!
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Thank GOD He looks at the inside and sees the real reasons for the things we do - good AND bad - and He loves us anyways and meets ALL of our needs. Because, if it were left up to the "church" on this earth to do this job, we'd ALL be in a world of hurt. BUT for the Grace of God, each of us could be in a different place in this life. And BECAUSE of the Grace of God, we must not think more of ourselves than we ought. We are all needy when compared to Him. We have "sold" our souls to the Christian cliche's and worship them, rather than actually DOING what the Bible says.

GOD does not need us to run HIS COMMANDS past the bar of our understanding!!!!!!!! He only needs us to obey. Just O B E Y.

Truthfully, when it's an "us" v. "them" mentality it is a wrong mentality. We are in a NEW COVENANT which says we are all objects of His love.

God help us all to LOVE His people. They are so broken. We were all broken once.
 
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”
 
Your version left some words out. See the BLUE below.


covered_by_grace said:
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you Determined if I was worthy to receive before you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you Determined if I was worthy to receive before you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you carefully evaluated my character, checked for abortions in my history, and made sure I wasn't gay, then invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ And showed me what good and prudent judges you are!
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ In fact, you didn't even consider I might be worthy.
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”
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You have to get the new and improved redacted version, NIRV to read all the extra neo-con translational verses.... You can't leave home without them.
 
covered_by_grace said:
UGGGGG!!!!! I wasn't paying attention... thanks for catching it! :D
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Seriously, it is a shame to insert our own presuppositions into the Word of God.
(I know you didn't do that, Xian, for any reason but to prove what I'm saying here, which is that we, by nature, want to put our "2 cents" in when it's not needed.
 
Hmm...when my husband and I give to an organization, we actually do check out how they spend their funds. I mean, if there are 2 organizations that feed children in third world countries, and one spends 15% on administrative costs with 85% going directly to feeding children, while another's ratio is 60% administration, 40% food for kids, guess which we choose? We also look to see if they're accountable to something like the ECFA. I don't know if this is bad...it seems wise to us not to give the Lord's resources to an organization that will buy a million dollar jet for their execs, though.
 
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