Hell Is Immoral?

[Musicmaster]

Ok, folks, time to put your thinking caps on and comment after listening to this guy's premises and his conclusion, which is that Hell is allegedly "immoral."

Can you list the flaws in his premises? False premises utterly fail to support his conclusion.

 

[Musicmaster]

 

[Major]

Ok, folks, time to put your thinking caps on and comment after listening to this guy's premises and his conclusion, which is that Hell is allegedly "immoral."

Can you list the flaws in his premises? False premises utterly fail to support his conclusion.

Honestly MM.......at this late stage in my life, I give NO time and NO respect to those kinds of people.

He said............."Hell is not true".

But God said in Luke 16:23.........
" And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

So I like everything else in life have a choice. I can believe this knucklehead or I can believe God!!! Some choice huh!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I watched the video with sound off so only read the captions. His words may not be Biblical but he does have a point, namely how can God hold you accountable for something you can in no way change? Basically we're talking original sin here. The sin of Adam applies to all humanity. That's makes humanity a collective. Likewise the sacrifice of Jesus, and God's grace and mercy thereof, must also apply to all humanity. I don't see how we can have it both ways.

From this perspective, it seems to me Hell is less a place where God sends you than a place where you retreat in fear from God. Those damned forever are therefore damned by choice, or so it seems.

 

[Musicmaster]

I watched the video with sound off so only read the captions. His words may not be Biblical but he does have a point, namely how can God hold you accountable for something you can in no way change? Basically we're talking original sin here. The sin of Adam applies to all humanity. That's makes humanity a collective. Likewise the sacrifice of Jesus, and God's grace and mercy thereof, must also apply to all humanity. I don't see how we can have it both ways.

From this perspective, it seems to me Hell is less a place where God sends you than a place where you retreat in fear from God. Those damned forever are therefore damned by choice, or so it seems.

His point, however, is rooted in fallacious reasoning, because he's applying purely subjective premises as his way of trying to empirically prove his entirely subjective conclusion. I could begin naming the list of fallacies he perpetrated, such as Tu Quoque, Kettle Logic, Personal Incredulity, etc., etc.

The fall of mankind fit perfectly with God's plan, no matter how difficult those folks out there find it in their attempts at grasping it.

The bottom line is this: The majority of mankind has a problem with, above all else when it comes to God, His Sovereignty.

How so?

Simply stated: Mankind wants a god who is under our control. God's being Sovereign places Him outside of our control.

For them to desire a God who is under our control is to desire a god who is a lower life form than a cockroach. For example, we could place a cockroach on a table in front of us, having placed a candle in front of it, and try to apply the power of our own minds to will that cockroach to leap into the flame. We all know the cockroach would run the other way, in spite of the sill-power of our minds, but they want a god who does jump into the flame, simply from the basis of our desires, when not even a cockroach is subject to our will?

Naw. Ain't gonna happen.

Hell is their own choice as the logical and reasonable alternative to placing their sin upon the only One who can take their sins, and keep them from having to spend eternity trying to atone for them.

Immoral? No. Human free will for choosing as to where each one's sin lands is what keeps it from being immoral.

We also have good reason to believe that Hell is exactly as described, and that it is eternal. That is the lasting and eternal demonstration for the Power in the Blood of Christ Jesus. They may label that as being cold and indifferent, but, then, the alternatives they whine about as being more gracious and desirable...they end up stuck in circular reasoning on that.

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

The bottom line is this: The majority of mankind has a problem with, above all else when it comes to God, His Sovereignty.

I think you are correct.

Perhaps the problem is linguistic? When we think "sovereign" we think "king", and indeed the Bible uses that word to describe God. The problem, however, is "king" carries much baggage. Yes there have been good kings in history but that is generally the exception. Historically, most kings are negligent at best or downright capricious at worst, so when we think of God's sovereignty as God being king we risk undermining our own thoughts before we even begin. Biblical verses describing a lake of fire and gnashing of teeth don't help in this regard.

I prefer to see God as father instead of king. That places his sometimes stern action against humanity as more corrective than punitive. He has a plan for us that is in our ultimate best interest, not unlike a human father raising a possibly troublesome child, and wants to see us succeed perhaps despite our own efforts to undermine ourselves.

 

[Musicmaster]

I think you are correct.

Perhaps the problem is linguistic? When we think "sovereign" we think "king", and indeed the Bible uses that word to describe God. The problem, however, is "king" carries much baggage. Yes there have been good kings in history but that is generally the exception. Historically, most kings are negligent at best or downright capricious at worst, so when we think of God's sovereignty as God being king we risk undermining our own thoughts before we even begin. Biblical verses describing a lake of fire and gnashing of teeth don't help in this regard.

I prefer to see God as father instead of king. That places his sometimes stern action against humanity as more corrective than punitive. He has a plan for us that is in our ultimate best interest, not unlike a human father raising a possibly troublesome child, and wants to see us succeed perhaps despite our own efforts to undermine ourselves.

It is indeed true that the Lord desires that ALL men be saved, but most of humanity doesn't want anything to do with God. It's wonderful that the Lord is the only benevolent King who has ever existed, and mankind regarding His perfect justice as being unjust; that simply clangs and gongs in harmony with all the rest of the chaos of thought and beliefs we find in the minds of the utterly lost.

There are some on the crowds of the lost that God hates, and others He has turned over to their own lusts and desires. Is that what some would call "cold shouldering?" Perhaps, but that was of their own doing, not His. I'm reminded of when the pharaoh hardened his own heart before God came along and hardened it even more in order to use that man through whom to demonstrate His perfect Power, and...wow! The Lord used that man and his hardness to indeed show the world that the Lord is not One to be trifled with.

Amen

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

Ok, folks, time to put your thinking caps on and comment after listening to this guy's premises and his conclusion, which is that Hell is allegedly "immoral." Can you list the flaws in his premises? False premises utterly fail to support his conclusion.

Honestly MM.......at this late stage in my life, I give NO time and NO respect to those kinds of people. He said............."Hell is not true". But God said in Luke 16:23........." And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." So I like everything else in life have a choice. I can believe this knucklehead or I can believe God!!! Some choice huh!

Hello Musicmaster;

One time Southern Baptist Matt Dillahunty almost became a minister but as he learned more about the Truth of God, in time it did not sink in with him.

To quote Robert Frost, "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference."

Jesus' burden is light, for example, He equips us with growing knowledge and wisdom. The more we are discipled the more we learn about God who trumps science and human intelligence over the Bible. So when Matt comes along and tangles over his words as in this video proclaiming hell as immoral, the seasoned believer can distinguish the dark and the light, thus the Truth.

Matt ends with, "I don't buy it" regarding hell. My response to his argument is the same, "I don't buy it, Matt."

Hello Major;

Luke 16:23, And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. - WBT

To correct Dillahunty, hell is not for the worst or the immoral, it's for the impenitent.

I echo what you are sharing. I also don't have time for this but nor did Jesus when He said, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? - Matthew 17:17 ESV

The Lord is Great! He still endured, loved and ministered to the world just as we are to endure, love and minister to the world.

God bless you, MM and Major.

 

[Major]

Hello Musicmaster;

One time Southern Baptist Matt Dillahunty almost became a minister but as he learned more about the Truth of God, in time it did not sink in with him.

To quote Robert Frost, "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference."

Jesus' burden is light, for example, He equips us with growing knowledge and wisdom. The more we are discipled the more we learn about God who trumps science and human intelligence over the Bible. So when Matt comes along and tangles over his words as in this video proclaiming hell as immoral, the seasoned believer can distinguish the dark and the light, thus the Truth.

Matt ends with, "I don't buy it" regarding hell. My response to his argument is the same, "I don't buy it, Matt."

Hello Major;

Luke 16:23, And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. - WBT

To correct Dillahunty, hell is not for the worst or the immoral, it's for the impenitent.
I echo what you are sharing. I also don't have time for this but nor did Jesus when He said, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? - Matthew 17:17 ESV

The Lord is Great! He still endured, loved and ministered to the world just as we are to endure, love and minister to the world.
God bless you, MM and Major.

I guess I did not word that very well Robert. After I read what you posted back I felt the need to elaborate.

I spend time and energy, and have NO problem with it in talking to the lost who need to be saved, or the saved who are strugelling over a specific problem, but as seen in that specific video when those who for some reason feel the need to denigrate what we all know the Scriptures says......I just do not have time neither do I have the energy anymore to fight that battle.

That battle is actually over. THAT man has gone down the hole of total rejection. Someone with a lot more patience than me is the one who needs to confront that kind of individual.

 

[bobinfaith]

I guess I did not word that very well Robert. After I read what you posted back I felt the need to elaborate. I spend time and energy, and have NO problem with it in talking to the lost who need to be saved, or the saved who are strugelling over a specific problem, but as seen in that specific video when those who for some reason feel the need to denigrate what we all know the Scriptures says......I just do not have time neither do I have the energy anymore to fight that battle. That battle is actually over. THAT man has gone down the hole of total rejection. Someone with a lot more patience than me is the one who needs to confront that kind of individual.

Hello Major;

I appreciate that and I feel we both are on the same page; when to discuss our faith to those who are lost or struggling as God leads. But at some point we can discern when to let the conversation go.

I believe God appoints His servants who are willing to go the extra mile, but this guy in the video can go on and on. To me his mind is made up and I don't have time to convince or be entertained by others when their issues are contrary to God.

Are we close? See what MM brought to the table? lol!

 

[ButterflyJones]

I watched the video with sound off so only read the captions. His words may not be Biblical but he does have a point, namely how can God hold you accountable for something you can in no way change? Basically we're talking original sin here. The sin of Adam applies to all humanity. That's makes humanity a collective. Likewise the sacrifice of Jesus, and God's grace and mercy thereof, must also apply to all humanity. I don't see how we can have it both ways.

From this perspective, it seems to me Hell is less a place where God sends you than a place where you retreat in fear from God. Those damned forever are therefore damned by choice, or so it seems.

And yet in Deuteronomy 24 we're told the sins of the father do not pass to the son. Each is responsible for their own sins and punishment.


The myth of eternal torment in a hell is immoral. And contrary to scripture. Our Omniscient Sovereign God says, love me or I'll burn you for eternity? No.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NW — For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave* (“Sheol”), whither thou goest.

The Hebrew Bible doesn't speak of a fire and brimstone place of eternal torment.
Sheol is in the Hebrew Bible. Changing that word to the Greek God of the underworld name, Hades, corrupts God's original word, Sheol. The grave.

New Testament Christians know, the wages of sin is death. Not eternal torture in fire.

 

[Dave F.]

New Testament Christians know, the wages of sin is death. Not eternal torture in fire.

Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10 seem to suggest otherwise. What are your thoughts on these?

 

[ButterflyJones]

Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10 seem to suggest otherwise. What are your thoughts on these?

Compare to God's disdain for firey torment here, “And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” Jeremiah 32:35

But God would then burn people eternally for their sins? And contradict himself when saying the wages of sin is death?

 

[Major]

And yet in Deuteronomy 24 we're told the sins of the father do not pass to the son. Each is responsible for their own sins and punishment.


The myth of eternal torment in a hell is immoral. And contrary to scripture. Our Omniscient Sovereign God says, love me or I'll burn you for eternity? No.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NW — For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave* (“Sheol”), whither thou goest.

The Hebrew Bible doesn't speak of a fire and brimstone place of eternal torment.
Sheol is in the Hebrew Bible. Changing that word to the Greek God of the underworld name, Hades, corrupts God's original word, Sheol. The grave.

New Testament Christians know, the wages of sin is death. Not eternal torture in fire.

Deut. 24 could also simply refer to the fact that every person is responsible for their own actions. Because the father is an alcoholic does not mean the son has to be but most of the time thay are. Same with beating the wife. The son sees the father do it and thinks it is the way to live.

IF Eternal torment was a myth, one has to wonder why Jesus the Christ would talk more about hell than heaven.

 

[Major]

Compare to God's disdain for firey torment here, “And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” Jeremiah 32:35

But God would then burn people eternally for their sins? And contradict himself when saying the wages of sin is death?

That is not a contradiction.

It was a command for His people to not do what the people were doing in Cannan! They were killing babies and burning them as a human sacrifice to Molech as a blessing for better crops.

That is a total misreprentation of Scripture and is taking it out of context to make it say what is does not say.

DEATH in the Scriptures = Separation!

 

[Major]

And yet in Deuteronomy 24 we're told the sins of the father do not pass to the son. Each is responsible for their own sins and punishment.


The myth of eternal torment in a hell is immoral. And contrary to scripture. Our Omniscient Sovereign God says, love me or I'll burn you for eternity? No.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NW — For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave* (“Sheol”), whither thou goest.

The Hebrew Bible doesn't speak of a fire and brimstone place of eternal torment.
Sheol is in the Hebrew Bible. Changing that word to the Greek God of the underworld name, Hades, corrupts God's original word, Sheol. The grave.

New Testament Christians know, the wages of sin is death. Not eternal torture in fire.

Now, YOU may not like the idea of eternal torments in a place called Hell, I know I do not like it but you know what............
God did not ask YOU or ME what I thought of it or if I liked it.

It is because GOD SAID that it is.

Now, what does denying the existence of Hell bring in the first place????

Well, it takes away the responsibility of morality. Think about this, if people eliminated the acceptance of Hell or judgment after their earthly lives – Sin would be free. If people chose to ignore the existence of Hell, anyone can choose to live an immoral life and get away with it. YES my friend........that is exactly what our human nature of sin will demand from us.

Allow me to ask you......If there were NO speed limi sign anywhere on the Interstates, how fast would YOU drive??
Dont answer, I know how fast. As fast as your car would go! NO LIMITS.

Love is a two sided coin. God's Love is everlasting (1 John 4:16) and eternal. While His love is absolute, there’s another thing we are certain of. On the other side of the coin, God loves all except for wickedness or evil (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Hate” there is an understatement, the Lord loathes evil and Heaven is not the destination for evil. Where do YOU think that the wicked, evil, lost person should speand eternity????

This is why Hell exists because the heavens keep no trace of evil simply because God loathes it. Would YOU as an owner of a household keep something YOU hate around YOUR house????

God wants us to live with morality and kindness and love one for another. He loves us but, He hates our sins. In our lifetime, we are given two options which are clearly depicted in the Bible. The first option is found in Matthew 25:33-34 where we are to inherit the Kingdom of God. Now, the other option is found in Matthew 25:41 where we are given to understand the consequences of not choosing Heaven. In this, God commands us to depart from Him and bathe in the lasting fire with the devil and his angels.

Now that IS what the Bible says. Love it or not!

Whether we believe personally in the eternally torment of hell or we dont.......does not change the Bible fact that there is such a place and the lost of all the ages will be there!

This whole topic reminds me of the bumper sticker..........."GOD SAID AND THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO IT".

 

[ButterflyJones]

Now, YOU may not like the idea of eternal torments in a place called Hell, I know I do not like it but you know what............
God did not ask YOU or ME what I thought of it or if I liked it.

It is because GOD SAID that it is.

Now, what does denying the existence of Hell bring in the first place????

Well, it takes away the responsibility of morality. Think about this, if people eliminated the acceptance of Hell or judgment after their earthly lives – Sin would be free. If people chose to ignore the existence of Hell, anyone can choose to live an immoral life and get away with it. YES my friend........that is exactly what our human nature of sin will demand from us.

Allow me to ask you......If there were NO speed limi sign anywhere on the Interstates, how fast would YOU drive??
Dont answer, I know how fast. As fast as your car would go! NO LIMITS.

Love is a two sided coin. God's Love is everlasting (1 John 4:16) and eternal. While His love is absolute, there’s another thing we are certain of. On the other side of the coin, God loves all except for wickedness or evil (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Hate” there is an understatement, the Lord loathes evil and Heaven is not the destination for evil. Where do YOU think that the wicked, evil, lost person should speand eternity????

This is why Hell exists because the heavens keep no trace of evil simply because God loathes it. Would YOU as an owner of a household keep something YOU hate around YOUR house????

God wants us to live with morality and kindness and love one for another. He loves us but, He hates our sins. In our lifetime, we are given two options which are clearly depicted in the Bible. The first option is found in Matthew 25:33-34 where we are to inherit the Kingdom of God. Now, the other option is found in Matthew 25:41 where we are given to understand the consequences of not choosing Heaven. In this, God commands us to depart from Him and bathe in the lasting fire with the devil and his angels.

Now that IS what the Bible says. Love it or not!

Whether we believe personally in the eternally torment of hell or we dont.......does not change the Bible fact that there is such a place and the lost of all the ages will be there!

This whole topic reminds me of the bumper sticker..........."GOD SAID AND THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO IT".

God said the wages of sin is death.

 

[Dave F.]

Compare to God's disdain for firey torment here, “And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” Jeremiah 32:35

But God would then burn people eternally for their sins? And contradict himself when saying the wages of sin is death?

You did not answer my question, but rather offered up the Israelites sacrificing their children to a false god, which is a terrible sin. The scriptures I posted speak of unrepentant sinners being cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. I was asking for your thoughts on these scriptures.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Well, it takes away the responsibility of morality. Think about this, if people eliminated the acceptance of Hell or judgment after their earthly lives – Sin would be free. If people chose to ignore the existence of Hell, anyone can choose to live an immoral life and get away with it. YES my friend........that is exactly what our human nature of sin will demand from us.

I think the issue some (including me) take with hell is that it's apparently one-size-fits-all. Any sin will send you there. That's like having a judicial system where every crime, from jaywalking to premeditated murder is punishable by death.

 

[Dave F.]

I think the issue some (including me) take with hell is that it's apparently one-size-fits-all. Any sin will send you there. That's like having a judicial system where every crime, from jaywalking to premeditated murder is punishable by death.

Hell is for those who reject Jesus as Lord and Savior. Salvation is a free gift to all, but we must accept it, otherwise God will not force anyone to be with Him.