Hell Is Immoral?

[Major]

I think the issue some (including me) take with hell is that it's apparently one-size-fits-all. Any sin will send you there. That's like having a judicial system where every crime, from jaywalking to premeditated murder is punishable by death.

May I say to you my dear friend...it is NOT ANY sin that sends anyone to hell. It is only ONE act or better said the lack of ONE CHOICE!

We all sin. We all LIE, we all steal and cheat. We have lust for the wrong person. We all break the Sabbath but that is NOT what sends a man to hell.

It is Rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is disobedience! That is the Unpardonable Sin!

 

[Major]

You did not answer my question, but rather offered up the Israelites sacrificing their children to a false god, which is a terrible sin. The scriptures I posted speak of unrepentant sinners being cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. I was asking for your thoughts on these scriptures.

Correct and I noticed that as well!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

May I say to you my dear friend...it is NOT ANY sin that sends anyone to hell. It is only ONE act or better said the lack of ONE CHOICE!

We all sin. We all LIE, we all steal and cheat. We have lust for the wrong person. We all break the Sabbath but that is NOT what sends a man to hell.

It is Rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is disobedience! That is the Unpardonable Sin!

What then of sin? God cannot be in the presence of sin yet here we are bringing sin to God's very door. He must purge that sin from us before we enter but since we are in many ways defined by our sin, the "us" that enter Heaven cannot be the "us" that live on earth. We are changed fundamentally. Are we even recognizable?

 

[Major]

God said the wages of sin is death.

Yes He did.

He also said in Matthew 25:46............"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:48....................................................."‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Rev. 21:8...."But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Do YOU think that those Scriptures are a lie or in some way are not valid or truthful?????

Now, please feel free to ignore everything I say! NO ONE has to accept my posts. I AM NOT THE AUTHORITY.

However, my advice is to ignore the Bloggers on the internet, and instead get into the Word of God.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I am partial to the notion of a circle with concentric circles within. The core of the circle is God. It is there that we find pure, undifferentiated oneness. As we travel outward from the circle we experience separation. With separation we develop individuation. As we travel progressively outward we increasingly separate from the oneness of God and solidify in our illusion of other. We see ourselves and others as distinctly different beings. We lose our natural empathy and become capable of great harm to each other.

This is illustrated in the progress from the Garden (oneness) to separation (the fall) and eventually murder (Cain/Abel). Hell, in this sense, is the progression of lost souls fleeing from the oneness of God due to the fact that God sees all and these souls do not want to acknowledge the hurt they have caused others. They do not want to feel the guilt that accompanies the empathy that comes from unity so they run and hide.

 

[Major]

What then of sin? God cannot be in the presence of sin yet here we are bringing sin to God's very door. He must purge that sin from us before we enter but since we are in many ways defined by our sin, the "us" that enter Heaven cannot be the "us" that live on earth. We are changed fundamentally. Are we even recognizable?

Excellent question! Thank you for asking.

There are THREE steps of salvation.

1. JUSTIFICATION.
That is a legal term which means that when we accept the payment for our sin by accepting Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are in the eys of God.....declared NOT GUILITY! We are then clean JUST AS IF WE HAD NOT SINNED.

2, SANTIFICATION.
That means we are being "Set Apart" by God. We are then to grow in every phase of knowing Christ. Learning and living for Christ and aloowing Him to live through us.

3. GORIFICATION.
That is what the Resurrection is all about.
1 Corth. 15:51-54..........
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

At the Rapture/First Resurrection, the dead will rise 1st and then those who are alive will be give GLORIFIED bodies so that we will be just like Christ, in that our bodies will be as He is NOW!

I am partial to the notion of a circle with concentric circles within. The core of the circle is God. It is there that we find pure, undifferentiated oneness. As we travel outward from the circle we experience separation. With separation we develop individuation. As we travel progressively outward we increasingly separate from the oneness of God and solidify in our illusion of other. We see ourselves and others are distinctly different beings. We lose our natural empathy and become capable of great harm to each other.

This is illustrated in the progress from the Garden (oneness) to separation (the fall) and eventually murder (Cain/Able). Hell, in this sense, is the progression of lost souls fleeing from the oneness of God due to the fact that God sees all and these souls do not want to acknowledge the hurt they have caused others. They do not want to empathy that comes from unity so they run and hide.

The fact you are stating is that the further we get from God the further we get away from truth. There is a name for that!

C. S. Lewis called this anticipation Sehnsucht, a German word for “yearning.” Sehnsucht is used to describe a longing for a far-off country that’s, for now at least, unreachable. Lewis connected the yearning itself and the foretastes of it with the joy that is longed for.

In other words........We expect something more of food, entertainment, and relationships, and we are inevitably disappointed.
Though we live in a fallen world, we still retain the expectations and hopes of a better one. I now I do!

Most will not admitt it, but the loss of happiness comes from growing more and more distant from God. That is what YOU just said and it is called seperation.

 

[ButterflyJones]

You did not answer my question, but rather offered up the Israelites sacrificing their children to a false god, which is a terrible sin. The scriptures I posted speak of unrepentant sinners being cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. I was asking for your thoughts on these scriptures.

And I gave them to you.

Context.

An Omniscient sovereign God having dominion over his creation cannot contradict his own word.


The wages of sin is death.

Ours is a faith rooted in Judaism and the Messiah in the Tanakh. Eternal punishment for sins in a fire and brimstone bottomless pit of Hell is not there.

If Hell were awaiting the sinner God would have warned Adam of that. He did not. Genesis 3.

The body returns to dust. The soul to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
God is not a man that he should lie. If God does not change we must believe what he said about the wages of sin being death.

If it were Hell he would have stated that to the first human sinners, Adam and Eve.

Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:4
We cannot ignore man's part in canonization of scripture.

The concept of the Hell so many insist is of God is a 2nd century interpolation.

I love God with all my heart. And mind. That is why I do not accept a pagan underworld,and the names of their god and goddess, as part of his plan.

Jesus said do not believe every spirit but to test them to see if they are of God.
Some may think that applies to my pov here. That's outside my control. Believe as you wish.


However, think more of God than to blindly insist he contradicts himself. And do the research.

Do not ever ignore man's part in telling us what they believe God meant to say. Man write the Bible. Man voted on what would be contained within.
Over 40 different authors. Over a period of 100+ years and numerous councils decided what message, according to them, was God's to the world .

"The Bible says it and that's it!"

Which version?

God gave us intellect.
THINK! More of God than to believe he will burn sinners for eternity. And he loves you!
When he first said something else entirely.

When He'll has a man made history, pre-Bible, pray attention.

The Church's Development of the Hell Myth

Yeshua before 30 C.E. is dedicated to helping people understand Yeshua's teachings entirely separate from the church that grew up soon after his death, calling him Jesus or Christ. The site is non-denominational and non-religious. It contains only the teachings of Yeshua from the gospels and...

30ce.com

 

[ButterflyJones]

Excellent question! Thank you for asking.

There are THREE steps of salvation.

1. JUSTIFICATION.
That is a legal term which means that when we accept the payment for our sin by accepting Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are in the eys of God.....declared NOT GUILITY! We are then clean JUST AS IF WE HAD NOT SINNED.

2, SANTIFICATION.
That means we are being "Set Apart" by God. We are then to grow in every phase of knowing Christ. Learning and living for Christ and aloowing Him to live through us.

3. GORIFICATION.
That is what the Resurrection is all about.
1 Corth. 15:51-54..........
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

At the Rapture/First Resurrection, the dead will rise 1st and then those who are alive will be give GLORIFIED bodies so that we will be just like Christ, in that our bodies will be as He is NOW!


The fact you are stating is that the further we get from God the further we get away from truth. There is a name for that!

C. S. Lewis called this anticipation Sehnsucht, a German word for “yearning.” Sehnsucht is used to describe a longing for a far-off country that’s, for now at least, unreachable. Lewis connected the yearning itself and the foretastes of it with the joy that is longed for.

In other words........We expect something more of food, entertainment, and relationships, and we are inevitably disappointed.
Though we live in a fallen world, we still retain the expectations and hopes of a better one. I now I do!

Most will not admitt it, but the loss of happiness comes from growing more and more distant from God. That is what YOU just said and it is called seperation.

Gorification?
alooowing?
foretastes?
admitt?
seperation?

Thank you. I remember what the moderator said about spell check.

 

[Dave F.]

So, are you saying the new testament is false? You seem to base everything on the old testament. On what basis do you ignore the teachings of Jesus? What evidence is there that the new testament is not accurate? Your answer to my question seems to be that only the old testament is the word of God. As for man's involvement in the writing of the bible, it was also men who wrote the old testament.

 

[Major]

Gorification?
alooowing?
foretastes?
admitt?
seperation?

Thank you. I remember what the moderator said about spell check.

Very astute observation! Thank you for the corrections! It is an indication that you read the post! Very exciting!

Now allow me to ask the obvious question......... What has that got to do with the thread in view?

 

[Major]

So, are you saying the new testament is false? You seem to base everything on the old testament. On what basis do you ignore the teachings of Jesus? What evidence is there that the new testament is not accurate? Your answer to my question seems to be that only the old testament is the word of God. As for man's involvement in the writing of the bible, it was also men who wrote the old testament.

Brother, I think It means that the poster is only using the Scriptures that seems to support his point of view without context at all.
I would say that we do not live by the Torah or Tanakh.

I am sure YOU know this, but there is no clear reference to hell in the Old Testament. Those who reject the actual, literal Words of the Lord Jesus Christ of the doctrine of hell use this fact to assert that hell is not real because the Old Testament does not teach this concept. This is problematic for various reasons.

The Evangelical author, Randy Alcorn has written that.............
“the doctrine of hell is suggested in the Old Testament, but it is clearly revealed in the New. Jesus said more about hell than anyone.”

I have been around a long time and I have seen and still see even in the postings right here recently that, despite the Bible’s clear teaching of both heaven and hell, it is not unusual Christian people to believe in heaven’s reality while rejecting the reality of hell.

Now may I say to you what you already probably know and that is this has everything to do with wishful thinking.

It is easier to accept the idea of a happy and comfortable afterlife, but damnation isn’t quite so appealing., especially when we know that some of our family are in fact in hell today. Our brain just can not process the fact that someone we love, a mother or wife or child is in the torments of hell.

This is very similar to the mistake so many people often make when it comes to dangerous behaviors. The assumption that we will get what we want overrides the unpleasant but rational view that things might not end well.

As YOU have stated and I agree completely, the doctrine of hell is fully revealed in the New Testament. It is in tandem with the revelation in the Old Testament, which teaches that God will have His day in which He eternally expresses His wrath, visiting judgment upon the wicked.

There may not be overt references, but the Old Testament does teach the doctrine of a literal and eternal hell, opposing rather than helping those who reject this teaching.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

You may not choose to overdose but you do chose to take drugs.
You may not choose to die in a car crash but you do choose to drunk drive.
You may not choose to go to Hell but you do chose to reject Jesus.

I hear arguments like this occasionally and they seem to carry weight but there is one flaw in the above logic that is often overlooked.

In the first two cases, not performing the action is default. You must go out of your way to take drugs. You must go out of your way to drunk drive.

In the third example, the default is flipped. You must go out of your way to accept Jesus. Left to your own devices you won't do that.

This brings us to the strange case where the default action is to go to Hell. I think that's a major stumbling block that I don't see anyone discussing.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Very astute observation! Thank you for the corrections! It is an indication that you read the post! Very exciting!

Now allow me to ask the obvious question......... What has that got to do with the thread in view?

Excellent question. Please remember your typo post and reply to correction next time you think to confront any member for the same reason.

 

[Major]

Excellent question. Please remember your typo post and reply to correction next time you think to confront any member for the same reason.

Very interesting. Would you please post the post # where I in any way confronted you or corrected you on your typo's?

 

[Major]

You may not choose to overdose but you do chose to take drugs.
You may not choose to die in a car crash but you do choose to drunk drive.
You may not choose to go to Hell but you do chose to reject Jesus.

I hear arguments like this occasionally and they seem to carry weight but there is one flaw in the above logic that is often overlooked.

In the first two cases, not performing the action is default. You must go out of your way to take drugs. You must go out of your way to drunk drive.

In the third example, the default is flipped. You must go out of your way to accept Jesus. Left to your own devices you won't do that.

This brings us to the strange case where the default action is to go to Hell. I think that's a major stumbling block that I don't see anyone discussing.

Philosophically, that makes sense. However, philosophy never answers questions......it only asks more questions.

I have NO problem accepting that Hell is the default destination of the lost man.

It is exactly what God promised in Romans 6:23......
“The payoff for a life of sin is death, but God is offering us a free gift— eternal life through our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King”.

Hell then if we call it the default destination, it is because of sin and a man's refusal to accept the gift of God to be healed of his sin.
Now if there was no such thing as Hell, and we somehow convinced ourselves that there is no hell.....then we just called God a liar!

But you see, and I think you know this, God loves us in a way that we cannot understand. Through Christ, He paved a way back home to Him.

Ephesians 2:8-9...........
“For it’s by God’s grace that you have been saved. You receive it through faith. It was not our plan or our effort. It is God’s gift, pure and simple. You didn’t earn it, not one of us did, so don’t go around bragging that you must have done something amazing”.

We deserve to pay for our sin, we should go to hell because of our sin, but we are not required to pay anything for forgiveness and restoration—for salvation. Jesus has already done that. All God is waiting on is for us to accept His gift.

When we understand who He is, which is accomplished through prayer and study of His word inspired by the Holy Spirit in us as believers, we will get to know Him, and see glimpses of the hope that awaits us in eternal life.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

We deserve to pay for our sin, we should go to hell because of our sin

And our sin is dumped upon us before we are born. We are literally judged and found guilty before we exist.

No, I think there is more to it than this.

[Please forgive my bluntness. We are touching upon a difficult topic that is at the very core of Christianity and my emotions are running hot.]

 

[Major]

And our sin is dumped upon us before we are born. We are literally judged and found guilty before we exist.

No, I think there is more to it than this.

Now, honestly, is that something new for you????

When your children were little and crawling and just walking, did you have to teach them to steal that toy from their brother?
Did you have to teach your child to lie when you caught him eating those cookies you told him not eat????
No one has to teach a child to lie; rather, we must go to great lengths to impress upon children the value of telling the truth. Toddlers are naturally selfish, with their innate, although faulty, understanding that everything is “mine.” Sinful behavior comes naturally for the little ones because they are born sinners.

Christianity 101 says that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. That is neither fair or unfair. It is however the consequences of our grandparents for sinned and sin was imputed to all men.

We, you and me are sinners in FOUR ways..........
1. By actions.
2. By nature
3. By imputation
4. The whole estate of man is under sin.

Every one of us are affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions.
Everyone of us has a sin nature and you will till the day you die!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Now, honestly, is that something new for you????

The fact of our sin nature is not new to me, nor is the fact that we are tainted by it (although I am not sure 'tainted' is the correct word).

No one has to teach a child to lie; rather, we must go to great lengths to impress upon children the value of telling the truth.

Absolutely! This leads to my point: we teach children not to do these things, we don't throw them in jail for them and we certainly don't torture them with fire. Now, yes -- I know -- at a certain point, namely when children grow up and are no longer children, we do throw them in jail for such things. But still, we don't torture them with fire.

Extending my analogy, are we to equate death with the age of majority? Is death somehow the point at which we are no longer eligible for correction and now must be forever tortured? If that's how God wants it then so be it, but I don't think that's how it works. Like I said, I think there is more to it.

 

[Major]

The fact of our sin nature is not new to me, nor is the fact that we are tainted by it (although I am not sure 'tainted' is the correct word).

Absolutely! This leads to my point: we teach children not to do these things, we don't throw them in jail for them and we certainly don't torture them with fire. Now, yes -- I know -- at a certain point, namely when children grow up and are no longer children, we do throw them in jail for such things. But still, we don't torture them with fire.

Extending my analogy, are we to equate death with the age of majority? Is death somehow the point at which we are no longer eligible for correction and now must be forever tortured? If that's how God wants it then so be it, but I don't think that's how it works. Like I said, I think there is more to it.

You may not threaten them with fire, but I bet you threaten them with "Time out" or "Taking away a game" or "Taking away TV time" or a "spanking" or some kind of punishment for disobedience. We spanked our children until they got to be old enough to do other things that would get their attention.

May I say to you that if a parent does not discipline their children when they are young....then YES, there is a really good chance that they will be thrown into jail later. If they do not learn right from wrong they will do wrong and wrong has consequences.

Brother, God may step into the life of a believer with loving discipline, even to the point of death, to keep us from experiencing the level of condemnation of those who have rejected Christ. The writer of Hebrews describes it this way, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives" (Hebrews 12:5–6).

"Is death somehow the point at which we are no longer eligible for correction"......................YES!

If a man kills a man, and is place in prison for a life term, does he die in prison?......................YES?
Prison is not and never was supposed to be a place of correction. it is PUNISMENT!

Please consider the fact that God, therefore, has deemed all who commit sin will go to hell because they have failed to meet His righteous standard; they have broken His Law of moral perfection. If God did not send people to hell for breaking His laws, it could be said that God is not just. A good analogy is a court of law with a judge and a lawbreaker. A just judge will always convict the person who has been found guilty. If that judge did not pursue justice for the crime, he would not be a just judge.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Please consider the fact that God, therefore, has deemed all who commit sin will go to hell because they have failed to meet His righteous standard; they have broken His Law of moral perfection. If God did not send people to hell for breaking His laws, it could be said that God is not just. A good analogy is a court of law with a judge and a lawbreaker. A just judge will always convict the person who has been found guilty. If that judge did not pursue justice for the crime, he would not be a just judge.

I hear ya, brother. It's just difficult to swallow the fact that our crime is our very existence. If that's how God feels then it would have been better he not spare Noah nor his family. Clean slate.