Hell Is Immoral?

[ModeratorTeam]

This thread is once again opened for posting as long as PROPER treatment of others takes place and their beliefs are honored.

ANY bickering or demeaning will result in at least one week time off from CFS for anyone involved.


23

 

[crossnote]

I prefer to see God as father instead of king. That places his sometimes stern action against humanity as more corrective than punitive. He has a plan for us that is in our ultimate best interest, not unlike a human father raising a possibly troublesome child, and wants to see us succeed perhaps despite our own efforts to undermine ourselves.

Revelation 19:16 NASB95
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

[forgiven61]

he is Both father in heaven and king of kings Lord of Lords. father; one who imparts life and is committed to it; a progenitor, bringing into being to pass on the potential for likeness. so in heaven at the moment he is our heavenly father. when he returns he will be King of Kings Lord of Lords

 

[Major]

You have my deepest sympathies.


For all others, consider what is being proposed by errant savage exegetical false teachings, in any Biblical subject.

In this instance innocent babies in utero and newborn, and God.
They're damned sinners

Which, if the exegete is to remain consistent, means the stillborn, the SIDS newborn, go to Hell when they die.
Because God said so. Per the exegete being proposed.

Now consider all scripture must be in a consistent context to the narrative of an all loving Savior God.

Recall Jesus , who is-was God on Earth, and that teaching in Matthew 19:13-14 and Luke 18:16-17.

Jesus is telling the people of the way, "Christians", that we are to become like little condemned sinners.

No?
Precisely right.

A baby is never a sinner. We are not guilty of sin unless or until we violate God's spiritual laws .

Any parent knows babies and newborns are innocent and act out as innocents.


There are denominations that teach God condemns babies in the womb.

However, that is not what God says.
Remember, context and consistency in the narrative.
God says sin is not passed to others, Ezekiel 18:20.


When that is true of us, it would be God's contradiction were Adams sin to pass to the unborn and newborn.

I am glad to see that the thread was re-opened.

I do not want to leave the impression with anyone that there is any validity to..................
"In this instance innocent babies in utero and newborn, and God.
They're damned sinners
Which, if the exegete is to remain consistent, means the stillborn, the SIDS newborn, go to Hell when they die.
Because God said so. Per the exegete being proposed."
That is a passionate and personal OPINION and NO ONE said that!

What was actually said by me was what God said............
"David says, Psalms 51:5...................“Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me”.
Then in Psalms 58:3............................“Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies”.

Any one who reads the Bible understands what that means. We do NOT INHERIT THE SIN of our parents but WE DO INHERIT THE SIN NATURE OF ADAM. That is not what I SAY but it is exactly what God says.

It was then said by me that....................
"The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence."

 

[crossnote]

Hell is not immoral. What is immoral, are those who deny what God has clearly revealed in His Word and right off the lips of His Son while revealing the Father...

for example:
Matthew 13:49-50 KJV
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Major]

Hell is not immoral. What is immoral, are those who deny what God has clearly revealed in His Word and right off the lips of His Son while revealing the Father...

for example:
Matthew 13:49-50 KJV
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Agreed!

Hell was not designed for human beings. When one reads the teachings of Jesus, one will learn quickly that hell was not intended for any person to experience. Jesus said in Matthew 25:41..........
“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons”.
Hell then is a human choice NOT a divine wish!
God has NOT sent one single human being to hell and never will. THAT IS MORALITY!

Then...........Hell is a Place for Justice to be Served! That also is MORALITY!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Hell is not immoral. What is immoral, are those who deny what God has clearly revealed in His Word and right off the lips of His Son while revealing the Father...

Let us tread carefully here and remember we must first love our enemies. In the wrong ears, such words may become license to inflict justice upon the unjust, as history has repeatedly shown us.

 

[Via dolarossa]

Agreed!

Hell was not designed for human beings. When one reads the teachings of Jesus, one will learn quickly that hell was not intended for any person to experience. Jesus said in Matthew 25:41..........
“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons”.
Hell then is a human choice NOT a divine wish!
God has NOT sent one single human being to hell and never will. THAT IS MORALITY!

Then...........Hell is a Place for Justice to be Served! That also is MORALITY!

I’m not sure I fully understand..

No one wishes to go to hell, at least I don’t.
I wouldn’t start to intentionality do things I know will send me to hell… sometimes I have done things I didn’t know would be suffering at the end, but usually it’s something I wasn’t aware of at the time. Not all sins are intentional are they?

So if hell is a place for justice to be served one could say God is not very fair.
It’s like me saying to my granddaughter
“ because you accidentally dropped the cookie jar and broke it your not getting a cookie”

But also, since I am not God and I don’t fully understand how He works His universe I am ignorant of what will be. So I will just take your word for it. Or you could explain it for me it could help me understand it better. Because an eternal hell is a very frightening concept. I must admit. And how would I know if I’m going or not? I might think I’m not going, but I may end up there

Thanks.

 

[crossnote]

Let us tread carefully here and remember we must first love our enemies. In the wrong ears, such words may become license to inflict justice upon the unjust, as history has repeatedly shown us.

Right, as long as we don't compromise God's truth on whatever topic He reveals. Telling/warning people of hell is loving them. If you saw a person heading pell mell to a washed out bridge, wouldn't it be more loving to warn them than watch them take the plunge?

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Right, as long as we don't compromise God's truth on whatever topic He reveals. Telling/warning people of hell is loving them. If you saw a person heading pell mell to a washed out bridge, wouldn't it be more loving to warn them than watch them take the plunge?

Of course, but you misunderstood me. By equating immorality with those who deny God and linking denying God with going to Hell, we imply that those who are immoral are going to Hell. This is the first link in the chain that dehumanizes the "other" and can, if not carefully monitored, lead to violence including genocide. Now, I know that's not what you meant but we can't know who might read our words in the days to come and if some kook gets the wrong idea we don't want to be the one to give it to him.

 

[crossnote]

Of course, but you misunderstood me. By equating immorality with those who deny God and linking denying God with going to Hell, we imply that those who are immoral are going to Hell. This is the first link in the chain that dehumanizes the "other" and can, if not carefully monitored, lead to violence including genocide. Now, I know that's not what you meant but we can't know who might read our words in the days to come and if some kook gets the wrong idea we don't want to be the one to give it to him.

Yeah, I'm not sure how we got on an immoral slant. What sends a person to hell is their rejection of Jesus Christ and His redeeming work. Paul put forth His harshest words towards those who tampered with the Gospel...

Galatians 1:8-9 KJV
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Immorality was not mentioned.

 

[Major]

I’m not sure I fully understand..

No one wishes to go to hell, at least I don’t.
I wouldn’t start to intentionality do things I know will send me to hell… sometimes I have done things I didn’t know would be suffering at the end, but usually it’s something I wasn’t aware of at the time. Not all sins are intentional are they?

So if hell is a place for justice to be served one could say God is not very fair.
It’s like me saying to my granddaughter
“ because you accidentally dropped the cookie jar and broke it your not getting a cookie”

But also, since I am not God and I don’t fully understand how He works His universe I am ignorant of what will be. So I will just take your word for it. Or you could explain it for me it could help me understand it better. Because an eternal hell is a very frightening concept. I must admit. And how would I know if I’m going or not? I might think I’m not going, but I may end up there

Thanks.

YES. All sin is intentional!

PLEASE...PLEASE do not ever take my word for anything!!! YOU read the Scriptures. YOU check out what I say. YOU do the work.

Actually, INTENTIONAL and UNINTENTIONAL sins are the Old Test. way of understanding and is spoken to in the Book of Leviticus.

While there may have been a distinction in terms of the consequences of unintentional and intentional sins in the Old Testament, the Bible is clear all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory in Romans 3:23.

It is my understanding then that there is no sin which would not be forgiven because all sin is intentional. After all, sin is not something that just happens to us. We choose to sin. When faced with morally significant decisions, we either choose to obey God, or choose to disobey God. That’s not to say we don’t experience a moral conflict within us because we fight every day with the sin nature that is in us.

You asked.........
"So if hell is a place for justice to be served one could say God is not very fair."

NO.....just the opposite!

You said..........
"“ because you accidentally dropped the cookie jar and broke it your not getting a cookie”.

NO! You would be punishing your child for an accident. She did not break the jar on purpose, it was an accident, RIGHT.

Now.....If you told that child....."DO NOT TOUCH THE COOKIE JAR." And then she Choose to do it anyway, that is rebellion!=SIN!
That is exactly what Adam and Eve did and God had to discipline them just as He did. IF He had not disciplined them then He would have been immoral!

YOU are not going to hell!!! YOU have confessed that Jesus is the Christ! The thought that you might not go to heaven is the clear indication of Satan placing that idea in your head. REJECT IT! REBUKE IT!

 

[Musicmaster]

I’m not sure I fully understand..

No one wishes to go to hell, at least I don’t.
I wouldn’t start to intentionality do things I know will send me to hell… sometimes I have done things I didn’t know would be suffering at the end, but usually it’s something I wasn’t aware of at the time. Not all sins are intentional are they?

So if hell is a place for justice to be served one could say God is not very fair.
It’s like me saying to my granddaughter
“ because you accidentally dropped the cookie jar and broke it your not getting a cookie”

But also, since I am not God and I don’t fully understand how He works His universe I am ignorant of what will be. So I will just take your word for it. Or you could explain it for me it could help me understand it better. Because an eternal hell is a very frightening concept. I must admit. And how would I know if I’m going or not? I might think I’m not going, but I may end up there

Thanks.

Via, let's cast this into a different light.

All of mankind has two choices before him:

1) call upon the Lord for salvation and new birth, and therefore having their sins nailed to that cross through the sufficiency of His blood, or
2) retain his sins upon himself, and go to eternal Hell to try and atone for his sins through his own suffering, which will never suffice.

Yes, most will go to Hell out of defiance and hatred of the Lord, and that's their choice.

That completely nullifies any accusation of Hell being immoral since being sent there is not based at all upon the merits of our own works and actions, but rather what the Lord accomplished on that cross on our behalf and as a gift through grace (unmerited favor).

MM

 

[Major]

Let us tread carefully here and remember we must first love our enemies. In the wrong ears, such words may become license to inflict justice upon the unjust, as history has repeatedly shown us.

What then would be your recommendation then when referring to those to deny the Father and that The Father is revealed in the Son????

 

[Major]

Of course, but you misunderstood me. By equating immorality with those who deny God and linking denying God with going to Hell, we imply that those who are immoral are going to Hell. This is the first link in the chain that dehumanizes the "other" and can, if not carefully monitored, lead to violence including genocide. Now, I know that's not what you meant but we can't know who might read our words in the days to come and if some kook gets the wrong idea we don't want to be the one to give it to him.

I can not help to ask you this question.......
"who do you think are those going to hell"? ...........Are they Moral or Immoral?

Then the question must be.......Isn't being a MORAL person something we DO?

So then salvation is only by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and not by works we do, then the answer must be that NO MORAL PERSON WILL GO TO HEAVEN!

Do you agree that the vast majority of people will go to hell?

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I can not help to ask you this question.......
"who do you think are those going to hell"? ...........Are they Moral or Immoral?

Then the question must be.......Isn't being a MORAL person something we DO?

So then salvation is only by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and not by works we do, then the answer must be that NO MORAL PERSON WILL GO TO HEAVEN!

Do you agree that the vast majority of people will go to hell?

Your reasoning is good and I have no fault with it. If entry into Heaven were predicated on morality then we would all be in bad shape. Fortunately, as I see it, entrance into Heaven has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with accepting God. To the degree to which we are moral or immoral I fully expect to receive a "stern talking" from God when I die, and I suspect fear of that "stern talking" may very well be enough to cause some to reject God altogether. But this is just my feeling on the matter. Pay no heed to me if you feel otherwise.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

What then would be your recommendation then when referring to those to deny the Father and that The Father is revealed in the Son????

That's not my point. My point is "othering" and a return of the Crusades or the Holocaust. I had hoped to not be this blunt but as soon as we state (or even imply) that we are God's favorites and others are damned to Hell we give license to some people to murder other people in God's name.

 

[Major]

That's not my point. My point is "othering" and a return of the Crusades or the Holocaust. I had hoped to not be this blunt but as soon as we state (or even imply) that we are God's favorites and others are damned to Hell we give license to some people to murder other people in God's name.

OK. I get it......Sorry!

I do understand.........and I am not trying to be argumentative, in any way.

I dont think we can include the crusades in this discussion. They were more about trying to take control away from the Muslims and not soteriology. Just an opinion....I was not there.

Then the Holocaust was focused on Hitlers extermination of the Jews and not who goes to hell or a license to murder in God's name.
God was the furthest name in Hitlers mind.

Now just for conversational purposes, isn't it true that only God's favorites, those who have been born again will enter heaven?

 

[Major]

Your reasoning is good and I have no fault with it. If entry into Heaven were predicated on morality then we would all be in bad shape. Fortunately, as I see it, entrance into Heaven has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with accepting God. To the degree to which we are moral or immoral I fully expect to receive a "stern talking" from God when I die, and I suspect fear of that "stern talking" may very well be enough to cause some to reject God altogether. But this is just my feeling on the matter. Pay no heed to me if you feel otherwise.

Totally agreed and that was my point!

Now, may I say to you in all candor.....You are not going to get a stern talking to when you stand before God.

Yes, I think that some will be ashamed because it is then that they will realize that there was some thing that they could have done but did not do. But knowing that while we’re still on earth gives us the opportunity to live lives worthy of reward. In other words, knowing now means we can fix it for then.

Whatever we think that God will give a talking to about, has already been done to Christ when He died for us.

Isaiah confirms that in 53:4-6......
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all”.

Revelation 22:12 introduces the fact of rewards for the believers:
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Now just for conversational purposes, isn't it true that only God's favorites, those who have been born again will enter heaven?

Yes, but it's... complicated. I created a thread yesterday asking what it means to know God. My opinions on the matter are listed there if you are curious. I don't want to distract from this topic more than I perhaps already have.