Hell Is Immoral?

LearningToLetGo said:
What if we approach Hell from the opposite direction, that is Heaven?

Heaven is a place with no suffering, yes? If so, how can anyone say there is no suffering in Heaven while untold billions are forever being tormented in Hell? Do those in Heaven simply forget about their former loved ones?
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That's a good question which I have often wondered about. The best I can think of is...

Revelation 21:4 ESV
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
 
blueskies said:
What do we remember of this earthly existence in heaven…
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crossnote said:
That's a good question which I have often wondered about. The best I can think of is...

Revelation 21:4 ESV
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
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I've pretty much accepted that it's impossible for us to remain "us" without Heaven eventually turning into Hell. I suppose it's like comparing you to "you" when you were three verses today: technically the same person but almost nothing in common except a name. The "us" in Heaven will be so radically different than the "us" on Earth as to be only nominally the same people.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
What if we approach Hell from the opposite direction, that is Heaven?

Heaven is a place with no suffering, yes? If so, how can anyone say there is no suffering in Heaven while untold billions are forever being tormented in Hell? Do those in Heaven simply forget about their former loved ones?
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Yes, Heaven is indeed a place of no suffering. However, no, we will not suffer in the knowledge of the loss of those we may have loved. You'll have to think outside the box of our weaknesses and lack of experience here in this realm by letting Paul's words speak to the deeper parts of your understanding:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Even the familial relationships we have here on earth, they dissolve away in eternity. For example, my former wife I had here on this earth, she is no longer my wife there. Father, mother, son , daughter, niece, nephew, etc., they all dissolve away from any importance when we also consider:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colasians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

In other words, in eternity, the distinctions and ties we see here will all melt away through us all having a common bond through Christ Jesus, and those who are not a part of that bond because they have chosen to keep their sins upon themselves, to try and atone for them through eternity in Hell, they are not longer of any relationship to we in Heaven. We won't celebrate their chosen path, but we will also have no reason to bemoan their choice in life and eternity.

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

See that? The tears are because of the experience of death and sorrows of this life, and they will all be wiped away. Understanding is a powerful thing, and the understanding that He will give to us is more than adequate to wipe away "all" our tears. It won't be some giddy indifference to the suffering in Hell, but rather an understanding that those people in that place chose to be there, and that nothing will ever change that.

It's not fatalism, but rather the difference between the lack of understanding we have here, and what we will gain once we enter into that realm.

MM
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I've pretty much accepted that it's impossible for us to remain "us" without Heaven eventually turning into Hell. I suppose it's like comparing you to "you" when you were three verses today: technically the same person but almost nothing in common except a name. The "us" in Heaven will be so radically different than the "us" on Earth as to be only nominally the same people.
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There's the flaw in your reasoning and understanding. You "see through a glass darkly" right now, and can't understand seeing without that barrier blocking out greater and more profound understanding that will place us in a whole different frame of mind.

I've heard people claim that we will not remember anything of this life since it's riddled with sin. Frankly, that's yet another failure at rightly dividing the word of truth because so many people read their Bibles like a novel rather than to do any deeper study of the text in order to soak up the resin that sticks to the floor of scripture. Yep, most slide through without taking notice of the deeper things. You have to DIG for gold, because it simply doesn't leap up at you from the ground. The thought that we will cease to remember anything from this life implies that some will walk up to you and ask how you earned that crown, and your respond, "Heck, I don't know. I just have it...."

:confused:

There seems to be no end to the lunacy some will adopt about a realm they have never experienced, and haven't even studied to any depth from what is revealed in scripture. I strive to scrape up the resin on the floor, because the healing and understanding is in that resin that doesn't come up and stick to the understanding of those who merely skate through the scriptures, missing entire troves of sweetness and glorious understanding.

So, when all is said and one, this idea that we will cease in being who we are after having been shaped by who we are/were here...no. I simply can't buy that. The sins here, they are not what shape us for who we will be there, and so remain nailed to that cross forever. The righteousness that is imputed upon us here, that has everything to do with who we will be there. After all, His righteousness is imputed upon us here, in who we are right now. If it were all worthless, then there would be nothing upon which for Him to impute His righteousness. Nowhere are we told that all that we are, and that has been covered by His righteousness, will melt away at death.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
There's the flaw in your reasoning and understanding. You "see through a glass darkly" right now, and can't understand seeing without that barrier blocking out greater and more profound understanding that will place us in a whole different frame of mind.

I've heard people claim that we will not remember anything of this life since it's riddled with sin. Frankly, that's yet another failure at rightly dividing the word of truth because so many people read their Bibles like a novel rather than to do any deeper study of the text in order to soak up the resin that sticks to the floor of scripture. Yep, most slide through without taking notice of the deeper things. You have to DIG for gold, because it simply doesn't leap up at you from the ground. The thought that we will cease to remember anything from this life implies that some will walk up to you and ask how you earned that crown, and your respond, "Heck, I don't know. I just have it...."

:confused:

There seems to be no end to the lunacy some will adopt about a realm they have never experienced, and haven't even studied to any depth from what is revealed in scripture. I strive to scrape up the resin on the floor, because the healing and understanding is in that resin that doesn't come up and stick to the understanding of those who merely skate through the scriptures, missing entire troves of sweetness and glorious understanding.

So, when all is said and one, this idea that we will cease in being who we are after having been shaped by who we are/were here...no. I simply can't buy that. The sins here, they are not what shape us for who we will be there, and so remain nailed to that cross forever. The righteousness that is imputed upon us here, that has everything to do with who we will be there. After all, His righteousness is imputed upon us here, in who we are right now. If it were all worthless, then there would be nothing upon which for Him to impute His righteousness. Nowhere are we told that all that we are, and that has been covered by His righteousness, will melt away at death.

MM
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Agreed.

IMHO, It is likely only our “past troubles” will be forgotten, but not all of our memories.

I do so hope that the memory of me missing 4 consecutive foul shots against Lakeview HS will be erased.

I do believe as you say that Our memories will eventually be cleansed, redeemed, healed, and restored, not erased. There is no reason why we could not possess many memories from our earthly lives. The memories that will be cleansed are the ones that involve sin, pain, and sadness.

The promise of wiping away every tear does not come until after the tribulation, after the final judgment, and after the re-creation of the universe.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
What if we approach Hell from the opposite direction, that is Heaven?

Heaven is a place with no suffering, yes? If so, how can anyone say there is no suffering in Heaven while untold billions are forever being tormented in Hell? Do those in Heaven simply forget about their former loved ones?
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Actually, YOU have just asked the "unanswerable" question brother!

Now, please understand that I just like everyone else have seen loved ones that I KNOW are in hell today. I know that as a fact because when I gave the gospel to them, they either laughed, told me to leave them alone or walked out of the door. If the Bible is true, and it is, then those people are in hell today and there was NOT ONE single word that I could have said at their funeral to get them to heaven,

Now......your question is, Will I remember them when I am in heaven and know about their torment in Hell?

The bottom line answer is that the Bible doesn't specifically say that people in heaven cannot look down on loved ones in hell, so we can't be dogmatic. However, it is unlikely that they can. People in heaven are likely preoccupied with other things such as worshipping God and enjoying the glories of heaven.

Then it must be remembered that when we are actually in heaven, we will have GLORIFIED bodies which means we will have the same mind as Christ!

Now..........I am NOT a big believer in DEATH BED confessions. However, we can all hope that the Holy Spirit has done a work of grace in someone's soul at the last moment before they die. We can hope that the message given to them during their life may have been aware of the hours leading up to their death and cried out to God for salvation.

The only real death bed conversion in the Bible is the thief on the cross proves and that "deathbed conversion" is certainly possible although not likely.

And if someone is unable to speak, or too weak to respond, those around them would not know of that conversion. We may be surprised and delighted to one day see them in the presence of Christ.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I've pretty much accepted that it's impossible for us to remain "us" without Heaven eventually turning into Hell. I suppose it's like comparing you to "you" when you were three verses today: technically the same person but almost nothing in common except a name. The "us" in Heaven will be so radically different than the "us" on Earth as to be only nominally the same people.
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Yup...

1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 
Ok, everyone....time for yet another revelation that popped me right between the eyes.

Genesis 3:22 NASB20 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take [fruit] also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

If we look at the above quote, we can glean some things from it that are very interesting.

With mankind having become like One of the Three, and in knowing good and evil, the prospect of Hell THEN became the reality that was not realized in Adam's pre-fall state. This all fit in perfectly with God's plan for mankind, for in the environment of sin and redemption, man is tested, even having not seen God in all His glory, as did the angels, and who therefore have no redemption available to those who fell with Satan. That well establishes the reason as to the creation of Hell for those entities in particular, with non-repentant man following after them to that place.

Just some things to mull over.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Ok, everyone....time for yet another revelation that popped me right between the eyes.

Genesis 3:22 NASB20 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take [fruit] also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

If we look at the above quote, we can glean some things from it that are very interesting.

With mankind having become like One of the Three, and in knowing good and evil, the prospect of Hell THEN became the reality that was not realized in Adam's pre-fall state. This all fit in perfectly with God's plan for mankind, for in the environment of sin and redemption, man is tested, even having not seen God in all His glory, as did the angels, and who therefore have no redemption available to those who fell with Satan. That well establishes the reason as to the creation of Hell for those entities in particular, with non-repentant man following after them to that place.

Just some things to mull over.

MM
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Yep! Right again!

Hell was not created for men!
 
(Warning: Speculation Ahead)
Since hell was 'created' for the devil and his angels 👼, was it 'created' after the fall of the angels (as a consequence of their rebellion) or before the fall of the angels ( due to God's foreknowledge)?

(You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you on this forum You have the right to a mod. If you cannot afford a mod, one will be provided for you.) lol
 
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crossnote said:
(Warning: Speculation Ahead)
Since hell was 'created' for the devil and his angels 👼, was it 'created' after the fall of the angels (as a consequence of their rebellion) or before the fall of the angels ( due to God's foreknowledge)?

(You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you on this forum You have the right to a mod. If you cannot afford a mod, one will be provided for you.) lol
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Ya know.....these hard questions are killing me!!!! They cause me to si and think and drink coffee. Then I have to go to the bathroom one an hour instead of once every 3 hours. ;) When you get older you will know what I mean!!!!!!!!

I wonder if YOU realize that this is a 3 part question.....or maybe you do and are trying to see if anyone else knows??????

So then....#1......If, when speaking of “hell,” you are thinking of the current holding place of the unrighteous dead, Scripture simply does not tell us when that place was created.

Then #2................IF, If by “hell” you are thinking of the final place of punishment, the lake of fire, That place has not yet been opened.

Then #3...............When we think of God and time, it is always a bit confusing because God is not bound by the constraints of time, as we are. God does not have to “wait and see” in order to respond to a situation. From our time-bound perspective, it makes sense to ME to think that Hell-(Sheol-Hades,) Lake of Fire, was created after the rebellion of Satan but before the rebellion of human beings.

Matthew 25:41:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

For me personally, I believe that Hell was created after Satan rebelled, and that Hell will itself be turned into-renamed the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment.
 
Major said:
When we think of God and time, it is always a bit confusing because God is not bound by the constraints of time, as we are.
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Here's an idea that will wrinkle your noodle. :)

What if God perceives time the way we perceive space, and God creates the way a painter works a canvas?

A painter does not start at one end and fully finish as he moves across, the way an inkjet printer does. Rather, he paints a bit here and a bit there, slowly bringing the entire image into focus as he goes. And occasionally he paints over an area, perhaps many times, until the final image is complete.

So perhaps God moves backwards and forwards through time, creating a bit here and then a bit there, maybe reworking this or that, until all of creation is complete. For all we know, the Lake of Fire could have been created first? "Let there be light!"
 
LearningToLetGo said:
Here's an idea that will wrinkle your noodle. :)

What if God perceives time the way we perceive space, and God creates the way a painter works a canvas?

A painter does not start at one end and fully finish as he moves across, the way an inkjet printer does. Rather, he paints a bit here and a bit there, slowly bringing the entire image into focus as he goes. And occasionally he paints over an area, perhaps many times, until the final image is complete.

So perhaps God moves backwards and forwards through time, creating a bit here and then a bit there, maybe reworking this or that, until all of creation is complete. For all we know, the Lake of Fire could have been created first? "Let there be light!"
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Could be!
 
Dave F. said:
Doesn't Revelation tell us death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire? Making hell separate from the lake of fire.
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Yes sir it does.

"The lake of fire" is a term used in only a few verses near the end in the book of Revelation.

Hell, the lake of fire, outer darkness , Sheol, Hades, Ghenna, are all terms describing the final destination of those who reject Christ. This is a state of complete separation from God, never-ending and inescapable.

It seems to me that these all seem to be different references to the same thing. Now why this place is reffered to as the Lake of Fire only in the Revelation is a mystery to me.

Now, if we think on this, and I have, I believe we can agree that the Bible tells us what hell is “like,” using symbols such as the lake of fire. But Scripture does not tell us too much about what hell “is,” in direct terms.
 
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