Your good my brother. Go as God leads you.
Hell Is Immoral?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
After following the rabbit down the hole lets get Back to the original thought of the thread........."IS HELL IMMORAL"?
FOCUS........the question is NOT ....is Hell real?
The question IS NOT..........................is Hell evil?
The question IS NOT..........................is Hell cruel?
The question is......IS HELL IMMORAL ?
The problem is there for the last 50 years, the Christian community and humanity itself has been trying to eliminate Hell.
Many scholars have noted that hell is a “secondary doctrine,” . What does that mean???? It means by implication that Hell is not as important as the primary doctrines like the Trinity or the natures of Jesus or even Heaven. For some, that may raise the question of why should we care about hell at all. THAT IS ACTUALLY THE FOCUS OF THE QUESTION IMHO.
Personally, I believe that There are various reasons why we should care about hell, the simplest ones are as follows:
1. It’s mentioned many times in the Bible.
So then, do you just pretend that it is not in the Bible? Do you skip over the words, Sheol, Hades and Everlasting torments?
2. It makes it clear that God is just.
We may not like the idea of hell, but allow me to ask a really simple question here.
Did God call or, or text you and ask you what YOU thought about Hell, or Heaven, or the Cross or death itself.
How many of you know and understand what MORAL means??????
IT means “Just” ! JUST is short for JUSTIFIED! It means that we’re working with the confines of what is morally correct.
That means there is a good reason for the things happening the way that they are, and many people believe in the valid morals of whatever the situation is. The meaning of “just,” according to The Cambridge Dictionary, is “fair; morally correct.”
May I say to you what YOU already know. All of us, as we get older, become more and more aware that we are all broken. We all commit sins, and as the Bible describes it many times, we are all worthy of judgment. Now THINK about it......Without punishment for sins, God would not be a JUST ruler of the universe. Therefore, Hell is important to help us understand God’s justice and moral goodness, as well as his sovereignty.
Now, do I like the idea of a place of eternal torment for those who are not forgiven for the sins they have done in their lives.
NO!. But go back and read the above............God did not call me and ask me for advice on anything. What He did do is ask me to be obedient and belive.
FOCUS........the question is NOT ....is Hell real?
The question IS NOT..........................is Hell evil?
The question IS NOT..........................is Hell cruel?
The question is......IS HELL IMMORAL ?
The problem is there for the last 50 years, the Christian community and humanity itself has been trying to eliminate Hell.
Many scholars have noted that hell is a “secondary doctrine,” . What does that mean???? It means by implication that Hell is not as important as the primary doctrines like the Trinity or the natures of Jesus or even Heaven. For some, that may raise the question of why should we care about hell at all. THAT IS ACTUALLY THE FOCUS OF THE QUESTION IMHO.
Personally, I believe that There are various reasons why we should care about hell, the simplest ones are as follows:
1. It’s mentioned many times in the Bible.
So then, do you just pretend that it is not in the Bible? Do you skip over the words, Sheol, Hades and Everlasting torments?
2. It makes it clear that God is just.
We may not like the idea of hell, but allow me to ask a really simple question here.
Did God call or, or text you and ask you what YOU thought about Hell, or Heaven, or the Cross or death itself.
How many of you know and understand what MORAL means??????
IT means “Just” ! JUST is short for JUSTIFIED! It means that we’re working with the confines of what is morally correct.
That means there is a good reason for the things happening the way that they are, and many people believe in the valid morals of whatever the situation is. The meaning of “just,” according to The Cambridge Dictionary, is “fair; morally correct.”
May I say to you what YOU already know. All of us, as we get older, become more and more aware that we are all broken. We all commit sins, and as the Bible describes it many times, we are all worthy of judgment. Now THINK about it......Without punishment for sins, God would not be a JUST ruler of the universe. Therefore, Hell is important to help us understand God’s justice and moral goodness, as well as his sovereignty.
Now, do I like the idea of a place of eternal torment for those who are not forgiven for the sins they have done in their lives.
NO!. But go back and read the above............God did not call me and ask me for advice on anything. What He did do is ask me to be obedient and belive.
To proclaim hell as Immoral requires a judgment call on fallen man's part.
From God's standpoint it is a fact, whether we judge it as moral or immoral.
Apples and oranges.
Am I missing something here?
From God's standpoint it is a fact, whether we judge it as moral or immoral.
Apples and oranges.
Am I missing something here?
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No sir you are not. I was just trying to be "intellectual".
Did it work???
Actually, You and I are sitting on the same pew. A sinner telling God that the Hell He created is immoral, is kind of like me telling Nick Saban how to coach football!
Hell is real because God said it is.
Eternal torment is bad because God said it is.
So I can honestly say that to the degree anyone struggles with the concept of hell and eternal punishment is the degree to which we don’t understand God’s holiness and honor on the one hand, or the horror and depravity of mankind’s sin, on the other.
In other words, if hell strikes anyone as unreasonable or unfair or disproportionate, or immoral, it can only be due to the fact that either: 1. you don’t believe the Bible is inspired and true, or
2. you don’t believe that God is infinitely holy and just, or
3. you don’t believe that mankind is morally depraved and has committed cosmic treason and is thus deserving of eternal condemnation.
Now that is the ONLY e positions anyone can have.
I do not need to explain anything for God!
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Actually, my post was not directed at your previous post but more at the title of the thread and those who would answer the question in the affirmative.
Now that hurts my feelings! I thought you really cared about what I thought.
I'm not gonna argue with God about how chemistry, biology, physics or mathematics should work. I guess the same argument applies to salvation.
Of course, but you misunderstood me. By equating immorality with those who deny God and linking denying God with going to Hell, we imply that those who are immoral are going to Hell. This is the first link in the chain that dehumanizes the "other" and can, if not carefully monitored, lead to violence including genocide. Now, I know that's not what you meant but we can't know who might read our words in the days to come and if some kook gets the wrong idea we don't want to be the one to give it to him.
I'm not sure I understand your rationale. The word of God is replete with warnings about the immoral going to Hell.
For example:
2 Peter 2:4-16
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; (immoral)
6 and [if] He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing [them] to ashes, having made [them] an example of what is coming for the ungodly; (immoral)
7 and [if] He rescued righteous Lot, [who was] oppressed by the perverted conduct of unscrupulous people
8 (for by what he saw and heard [that] righteous man, while living among them, felt [his] righteous soul tormented day after day by [their] lawless deeds),
9 [then] the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from a trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in [its] corrupt passion, and despise authority. Reckless, self-centered, they speak abusively of [angelic] majesties without trembling,
11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a demeaning judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions as they feast with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having hearts trained in greed, accursed children;
15 abandoning the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the [son] of Beor, who loved the reward of unrighteousness;
16 but he received a rebuke for his own offense, [for] a mute donkey, speaking with a human voice, restrained the insanity of the prophet.
So, are you saying that even the indictments from scripture against the immoral, and their consignment to Hell, incites violence against them?
Is it not the immoral who do violence against the immoral and the righteous? The Crusades were not the righteous going against the unrighteous. They were the immoral exacting judgement against the immoral and the righteous.
Just trying to wrap my brain around your statements above.
MM
Perhaps we stand a wee chance when it comes to the things we see (chemistry, biology, physics, etc), but when it comes to the unseen (salvation, hell, etc.) we are at the complete mercy of His revealing such matters through His Word and Spirit.
Now....think for just a moment! What is there in the whole entire world that you could argue with God about with the expection of winning that argument?????
Now I agree that there are some things that "I" do not understand or even agree with, but in reality, would there be any reason to argue with God??
Personally, I do not think we stand ANY chance in an argument with God.
Chemistry, biology, physics, math, name any science thought and.......He created all of those things!
What I am trying to say is that all of the "sciences" we know of are the product of the mind of God.
Since God has always existed and thought, the laws of mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology and of course salvation are also eternal, existing before people.
Is it then any wonder that we read in Romans 1:20 ......where it tells us that it is ‘the things that are made” that reveal the attributes of God -that He exists.
Agreed, I was just applying a wee bit of Judo, not Karate.
Old country boys from U.A. do not know Judo or Karate!!!!
We know 357 Magnums and baseball bats. Judo and Karate is way toooooo much work!
i have watched this post and and honestly most of the time . i stand on my head trying to understand . here is the deal HELL / the eternal lake of fire is for those who never Got saved. Good people honest people. no good people all the same. if your not saved and you leave this life on earth Lost. eternal damnation awaits
on the other hand leave this life saved /born again heaven awaits a life of peace and rest/ eternal life the rest of i say no more
on the other hand leave this life saved /born again heaven awaits a life of peace and rest/ eternal life the rest of i say no more
I do not know how many times that I have been asked why I believe in hell. I do not do short answers but I always say.............
First, I have such unshakable confidence in the inerrant truth of every word in the Bible that the matter is already settled before I ask it.
Second, by God’s grace I have come to understand, at least to some degree, the immeasurable magnitude and majesty of God’s holiness and beauty and authority and the honor that is due to him from all of his creatures, including you and me.
Third, again by God’s grace I have come to understand the immeasurable horror and ugliness and self-centeredness of humanity’s sin and depravity and wickedness.
So then, when we consider the question of........IS HELL IMMORAL, or if hell strikes anyone as unreasonable or unfair, it can only be due to the fact that either they don’t believe the Bible is inspired and true, or they don’t believe that God is infinitely holy and just, or you don’t believe that mankind is morally depraved and has committed cosmic treason and is thus deserving of eternal condemnation.
Over the years many people for do not know their head from their foot have made all kinds of stupid comments about hell.
One of those you have heard is...........All my friends will be there!
That implies that Hell that will be a place where they will be united with their unbelieving friends and drink beer all the time in an endless party. The fact is that hell is a place of utter isolation, loneliness, and deprivation.
Another is.................Satan and his demons will be in charge there.
The fact is that hell is the place where Satan and his demons suffer eternal punishment. Satan and his demons are inmates in hell, not its warden or guards.
Then there is the old standby of.....Satan and his demons will torment the humans in hell.
Pay attention now. There is not one text in the Bible that suggests Satan and his demons afflict or torment human beings.
They themselves, instead, are the object of God’s punishment. There have been numerous books written by people who claim to have visited hell in which they describe a scene where demons are tormenting humans who have been consigned there. This should be the first indication to all careful, Bible-believing readers that such an experience is fabricated or better said....IT IS A LIE!
Then I am sure everyone has heard it said.............There are people in hell who want to reconcile with God!
Musicmaster spoke to that when he posted about a "second chance' taught by the Mormons.
Nothing in Scripture indicates this is so. Instead, those in hell are eternally defiant of God and hate him all the more with each passing moment.
What about the one that says.............There are people in hell who do not deserve to be there.
That is one of the more blasphemous notions about hell that you will ever here said. Nothing could be farther from the truth. God’s justice is impeccable and he never consigns anyone to punishment in hell who does not fully deserve to suffer there. Now remember this
Bible fact........God has never "SENT" one single soul to hell!!!!
Then there is the one that is taught by the UNIVERSALISTS. There are people in hell that will be saved and released and go to heaven.
Now, as much as I wish this were true, it isn’t. The Bible , NO WHERE teaches the doctrine of universalism, that is, the idea that everyone will eventually be saved and given eternal life in the new heaven and new earth. Universalism is totally a figment of the imagination!
Then the one that to me is the most ridiculous is...............The bodies of those in hell will be totally consumed by the fire,
That is called, ANNIALATIONISM. It is the belief/teaching that after the Last Judgment, all unsaved human beings, all fallen angels (all of the damned) and Satan himself will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished rather than suffer everlasting torment in Hell often synonymized with the lake of fire.
Seventh-day Adventists - Jehovah's Witnesses - Church of England -Universal Universalists - Christian Science - Bible Students -to name a few denominations who teach this.
What if we approach Hell from the opposite direction, that is Heaven?
Heaven is a place with no suffering, yes? If so, how can anyone say there is no suffering in Heaven while untold billions are forever being tormented in Hell? Do those in Heaven simply forget about their former loved ones?
Heaven is a place with no suffering, yes? If so, how can anyone say there is no suffering in Heaven while untold billions are forever being tormented in Hell? Do those in Heaven simply forget about their former loved ones?
i think your beating a dead horse
There's no horse to beat. We're just throwing ideas back and forth in polite conversation.
What do we remember of this earthly existence in heaven…
Do we remember our own sins and transgressions. Do we feel guilt, remorse and shame? If so, would it preclude our chances of happiness in heaven?
Most have lost someone close to them by separation or death. We miss them for sure. Are our chances of any happiness forever lost with them?
How much greater are our chances for peace and happiness in heaven?
As much as I try to pick apart a point, I totally agree with your post EXCEPT... how you spell 'ANNIALATIONISM". lol