Hell Is Immoral?

[Musicmaster]

Doesn't Revelation tell us death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire? Making hell separate from the lake of fire.

This is a good example for the weakness of our English translation.

The Greek word translates as "hell" in Revelation 20:13 has the following definition in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Hades as a power is personified, 1 Corinthians 15:55 (where L T Tr WH read θάνατε for R G ᾅδη [cf. Acts 2:24 Tr marginal reading]); Revelation 6:8; Revelation 20:13f.

That doesn't seem to imply that the place called Hell is cast into itself, or some other lake of fire. It's a personification of a power. We have no other name to put upon that personification, just that it's some...one.

???

So, this is one of those things at which we can only speculate in this limited realm of ours.

MM

 

[Major]

Here's an idea that will wrinkle your noodle.

What if God perceives time the way we perceive space, and God creates the way a painter works a canvas?

A painter does not start at one end and fully finish as he moves across, the way an inkjet printer does. Rather, he paints a bit here and a bit there, slowly bringing the entire image into focus as he goes. And occasionally he paints over an area, perhaps many times, until the final image is complete.

So perhaps God moves backwards and forwards through time, creating a bit here and then a bit there, maybe reworking this or that, until all of creation is complete. For all we know, the Lake of Fire could have been created first? "Let there be light!"

But then again.........maybe not.

IF.....IF as you said, "God moves backwards and forwards through time, creating a bit here and then a bit there, maybe reworking this or that, until all of creation is complete"...........What do we then do with Genesis 1:31.........
"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

 

[crossnote]

So perhaps God moves backwards and forwards through time, creating a bit here and then a bit there, maybe reworking this or that, until all of creation is complete. For all we know, the Lake of Fire could have been created first? "Let there be light!"

(Just thinking out loud)
God transcends time and space, so there is no 'moving back and forth through time'.
(no longer thinking out loud).

 

[Major]

This is a good example for the weakness of our English translation.

The Greek word translates as "hell" in Revelation 20:13 has the following definition in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Hades as a power is personified, 1 Corinthians 15:55 (where L T Tr WH read θάνατε for R G ᾅδη [cf. Acts 2:24 Tr marginal reading]); Revelation 6:8; Revelation 20:13f.

That doesn't seem to imply that the place called Hell is cast into itself, or some other lake of fire. It's a personification of a power. We have no other name to put upon that personification, just that it's some...one.

???

So, this is one of those things at which we can only speculate in this limited realm of ours.

MM

Then what about........
Rev. 20:10 says.........
" and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Versre13..........
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. "

It seems to me that the Bible indicates that there are TWO different locations.
1. Hell which is Sheol/Hades
2. Lake of Fire

What I am saying is that those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination after the GWT Judgment.

 

[Major]

(Just thinking out loud)
God transcends time and space, so there is no 'moving back and forth through time'.
(no longer thinking out loud).

Yea. I agree. Since time has NO meaning to God, He would not move anywhere, forward or backwards. Man, this is giving me a headache.

 

[bobinfaith]

Yes sir it does. "The lake of fire" is a term used in only a few verses near the end in the book of Revelation. Hell, the lake of fire, outer darkness , Sheol, Hades, Ghenna, are all terms describing the final destination of those who reject Christ. This is a state of complete separation from God, never-ending and inescapable. It seems to me that these all seem to be different references to the same thing. Now why this place is reffered to as the Lake of Fire only in the Revelation is a mystery to me. Now, if we think on this, and I have, I believe we can agree that the Bible tells us what hell is “like,” using symbols such as the lake of fire. But Scripture does not tell us too much about what hell “is,” in direct terms.

Perhaps it is part of 'progressive revelation' the Scriptures are so famous for?

Doesn't Revelation tell us death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire? Making hell separate from the lake of fire.

This is a good example for the weakness of our English translation. The Greek word translates as "hell" in Revelation 20:13 has the following definition in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon: Hades as a power is personified, 1 Corinthians 15:55 (where L T Tr WH read θάνατε for R G ᾅδη [cf. Acts 2:24 Tr marginal reading]); Revelation 6:8; Revelation 20:13f. That doesn't seem to imply that the place called Hell is cast into itself, or some other lake of fire. It's a personification of a power. We have no other name to put upon that personification, just that it's some...one. ??? So, this is one of those things at which we can only speculate in this limited realm of ours.

MM

Hello Major, crossnote, Dave F. and Musicmaster;

I've been following this thread and I read some interesting comments and questions from you guys and wanted to share my thoughts to what each of you posted.

Hebrew being the original language of the Torah, Pentateuch (five books,) thus the Old Testament, obviously before the Scriptures expanded to the Greek "Ta Biblia" or the original language of the New Testament. This is why the Hebrew and Greek were so important being the original language. But not all 66 books can be accurately translated to another language, for example, the English translations.

I need to respond to brother MM's statement of the weakness of our English translation(s). Weakness does play a part in the English translations because for centuries there has been a failure in agreeing with God's inerrant Word.

Personally, I have always felt the English language is a beautiful language. Residing in a multi-multi culture city, many people have shared with me that when they learned English it was/is also a complicated language. That combined with translating from the Hebrew or Greek hasn't always been a consolation for the Bible because it falls short of the original languages (per other's posts.)

Look how many meanings we can have for (English literal) hell, (Greek and sub-meanings) for hades, (Hebrew and sub-meanings) for sheol.

A lone Hebrew or Greek word can have more than one meaning or nuance. It seems to me that to gain a better knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek is to add it to our cross references when we are studying or have a discussion of the Bible.

I'd like to ask you to share your thoughts as well, brothers and sisters.

 

[Major]

Hello Major, crossnote, Dave F. and Musicmaster;

I've been following this thread and I read some interesting comments and questions from you guys and wanted to share my thoughts to what each of you posted.

Hebrew being the original language of the Torah, Pentateuch (five books,) thus the Old Testament, obviously before the Scriptures expanded to the Greek "Ta Biblia" or the original language of the New Testament. This is why the Hebrew and Greek were so important being the original language. But not all 66 books can be accurately translated to another language, for example, the English translations.

I need to respond to brother MM's statement of the weakness of our English translation(s). Weakness does play a part in the English translations because for centuries there has been a failure in agreeing with God's inerrant Word.

Personally, I have always felt the English language is a beautiful language. Residing in a multi-multi culture city, many people have shared with me that when they learned English it was/is also a complicated language. That combined with translating from the Hebrew or Greek hasn't always been a consolation for the Bible because it falls short of the original languages (per other's posts.)

Look how many meanings we can have for (English literal) hell, (Greek and sub-meanings) for hades, (Hebrew and sub-meanings) for sheol.

A lone Hebrew or Greek word can have more than one meaning or nuance. It seems to me that to gain a better knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek is to add it to our cross references when we are studying or have a discussion of the Bible.

I'd like to ask you to share your thoughts as well, brothers and sisters.

Well I speak backwoods Alabamian.
Country boy red neck.
And now for the last 60 years Gator Tail.
I have studied Hebrew. (Hated it).
I have studied Greek. (Hated it).

I really have grown to love just plain English!

You said..............
"Weakness does play a part in the English translations because for centuries there has been a failure in agreeing with God's inerrant Word."

Yes sir! We have a winner!!!!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

What do we then do with Genesis 1:31.........
"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

Who knows, perhaps Genesis 1 through 2:3 are like the executive summary of creation?

 

[Major]

Who knows, perhaps Genesis 1 through 2:3 are like the executive summary of creation?

I do not buy that.

A long time ago, a Hebrew professor told us that there are NOT 2 Creation stories. Moses did what was the accepted style of Hebrew story telling. He gave an overall summary and then went into details of the summary.

In the Hebrew style, the word "and" becomes very important. In the Western style of writing, an account is broken up into sentences. Each thought is written and closed with a period. The Hebrew style of writing on the other hand continues a sentence dividing each thought with the word "and".

 

[LearningToLetGo]

A long time ago, a Hebrew professor told us that there are NOT 2 Creation stories.

I don't know what you mean by this. Did I imply there were two stories?

 

[Major]

I don't know what you mean by this. Did I imply there were two stories?

Genesis 1 through 2:3 are like the executive summary of creation?

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Genesis 1 through 2:3 are like the executive summary of creation?

An executive summary is just that, a summary. It's not a second creation story.

 

[Musicmaster]

Then what about........
Rev. 20:10 says.........
" and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Versre13..........
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. "

It seems to me that the Bible indicates that there are TWO different locations.
1. Hell which is Sheol/Hades
2. Lake of Fire

What I am saying is that those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination after the GWT Judgment.

Major, I do get what you're saying, but if I may offer something for thought.

Sheol is in the bowels of this earth. Hell is a place that will exist even after this earth and Sheol is destroyed. The second resurrection is when those in Sheol will be resurrected to be judged and cast into Hell, or the lake of fire.

Does that clarify some things?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello Major, crossnote, Dave F. and Musicmaster;

I've been following this thread and I read some interesting comments and questions from you guys and wanted to share my thoughts to what each of you posted.

Hebrew being the original language of the Torah, Pentateuch (five books,) thus the Old Testament, obviously before the Scriptures expanded to the Greek "Ta Biblia" or the original language of the New Testament. This is why the Hebrew and Greek were so important being the original language. But not all 66 books can be accurately translated to another language, for example, the English translations.

I need to respond to brother MM's statement of the weakness of our English translation(s). Weakness does play a part in the English translations because for centuries there has been a failure in agreeing with God's inerrant Word.

Personally, I have always felt the English language is a beautiful language. Residing in a multi-multi culture city, many people have shared with me that when they learned English it was/is also a complicated language. That combined with translating from the Hebrew or Greek hasn't always been a consolation for the Bible because it falls short of the original languages (per other's posts.)

Look how many meanings we can have for (English literal) hell, (Greek and sub-meanings) for hades, (Hebrew and sub-meanings) for sheol.

A lone Hebrew or Greek word can have more than one meaning or nuance. It seems to me that to gain a better knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek is to add it to our cross references when we are studying or have a discussion of the Bible.

I'd like to ask you to share your thoughts as well, brothers and sisters.

Well said, Bob. You're right when speaking about the complexities of English when compared against the less complex, ancient languages.

That's why I delve into the ancient languages to capture the essences of meaning that translation doesn't capture. My example above is just one of many anomalies that are easily misunderstood in translation. The idea of Hell being cast into itself doesn't make sense. Therefore the need for clarification.

MM

 

[Major]

Major, I do get what you're saying, but if I may offer something for thought.

Sheol is in the bowels of this earth. Hell is a place that will exist even after this earth and Sheol is destroyed. The second resurrection is when those in Sheol will be resurrected to be judged and cast into Hell, or the lake of fire.

Does that clarify some things?

MM

It is actually what I was saying. Hades (Greek) Sheol (Hebrew) Gehenna, “the Valley of Hinnom” and Hell are all the names of the same place.
Is it in the bowels of the earth????Maybe!

Maybe we get that idea that hell is below us, perhaps in the center of the earth, comes from passages such as Luke 10:15 .....
“And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell”.

Also, in 1 Sam. 28:13-15the medium of Endor sees the spirit of Samuel “coming up out of the ground.”

Ephesians 4:9, says that before Jesus ascended into heaven, “he also descended . . . into the lower parts of the earth.”
Some Christians take “the lower parts of the earth” as a reference to hell. Is it????? Hard to say for sure. Maybe! Maybe not!

Now, the words LAKE OF FIRE do not appear until we get to Revelation 19:20, 20:10, 14, 15.

Personally, I do not think that Hell/Hades/Sheol is the Lake of Fire. NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire today.!!!!

The first person to go into the Lake of Fire will be the antichrist, followed by the false prophet and then, 1000 years later, by Satan himself. This will occur in the future, after Jesus has returned to the Earth. It is not until after these enter it that the great mass of unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thus, nobody is in the Lake of Fire at the moment. Yet, there are countless people currently in Hell. What then is Hell?

Hell today is the place of tormenst spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16. It is a "holding" place for the spirits of the wicked lost until the GWTJ. THEN those spirts and their bodies will be resurrected and then cast into the LOF!

Does HELL turn into the LOF or is there another place that will become the LOF is the real question.

Seems to me we are saying the same thing!

 

[Major]

An executive summary is just that, a summary. It's not a second creation story.

Yes I understand but that was the reason I said there was a summary then the details given.
That was the normal Eastern method of writing......first a summary then the details.

 

[Baby Finch]

Ok, folks, time to put your thinking caps on and comment after listening to this guy's premises and his conclusion, which is that Hell is allegedly "immoral."

Can you list the flaws in his premises? False premises utterly fail to support his conclusion.

The video was removed by its uploader?

 

[Musicmaster]

The video was removed by its uploader?

Oh, bummer! That happened on Youtube, not here.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It is actually what I was saying. Hades (Greek) Sheol (Hebrew) Gehenna, “the Valley of Hinnom” and Hell are all the names of the same place.
Is it in the bowels of the earth????Maybe!

Maybe we get that idea that hell is below us, perhaps in the center of the earth, comes from passages such as Luke 10:15 .....
“And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell”.

Also, in 1 Sam. 28:13-15the medium of Endor sees the spirit of Samuel “coming up out of the ground.”

Ephesians 4:9, says that before Jesus ascended into heaven, “he also descended . . . into the lower parts of the earth.”
Some Christians take “the lower parts of the earth” as a reference to hell. Is it????? Hard to say for sure. Maybe! Maybe not!

Now, the words LAKE OF FIRE do not appear until we get to Revelation 19:20, 20:10, 14, 15.

Personally, I do not think that Hell/Hades/Sheol is the Lake of Fire. NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire today.!!!!

The first person to go into the Lake of Fire will be the antichrist, followed by the false prophet and then, 1000 years later, by Satan himself. This will occur in the future, after Jesus has returned to the Earth. It is not until after these enter it that the great mass of unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thus, nobody is in the Lake of Fire at the moment. Yet, there are countless people currently in Hell. What then is Hell?

Hell today is the place of tormenst spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16. It is a "holding" place for the spirits of the wicked lost until the GWTJ. THEN those spirts and their bodies will be resurrected and then cast into the LOF!

Does HELL turn into the LOF or is there another place that will become the LOF is the real question.

Seems to me we are saying the same thing!

This touches upon the weaknesses in translations I had mentioned in another thread. Translators stick whatever word will make the most sense to the reader, and without worrying about the deeper implications. That's why in-depth studies, as you know, reveal those weaknesses and errors, and therefore, as, again, you know, renders translations as not being infallible.

MM

 

[Major]

This touches upon the weaknesses in translations I had mentioned in another thread. Translators stick whatever word will make the most sense to the reader, and without worrying about the deeper implications. That's why in-depth studies, as you know, reveal those weaknesses and errors, and therefore, as, again, you know, renders translations as not being infallible.

MM

Again........we are on the same page!