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To what post are you now responding? It almost seems that you will go to any length for your doctine to be justifed/
How Does One Keep The Sabbath And Does It Apply To The New Covenant
- Thread starter Brother Paul
- Start date
To what post are you now responding? It almost seems that you will go to any length for your doctine to be justifed/
I want to clue in here. It says that sabbath was made for man not man for the sabath. It's not for Gods benefit. He doesn't need the sabbath. We do. We need that time. The sabbath is made for our benefit. Nothing else. God gave us the sabbath
What are you even arguing about?[/quote]
You have to work for that answer, Beloved. Read the previous posts.
Hi Bro. Major,
What you said is true. However, consider this for a moment. Does not God's very presence reveal the exceedingly sinfulness of sin? Yet the promise from Jesus is that the Father and Jesus Himself will make their abode w/ in us (John 14:23)( note:there are conditions that must be fulfilled for this to happen, see previous verse). The principals of the commandments is upheld by God because it is God's very nature. Therefore when God is dwelling within us, it is in fact impossible to sin.
Let me put it another way. The law is like a mirror, which shows us our true condition. In real life, if we had a piece of dirt on our face , we probably would not notice it until we looked at the mirror. But the mirror cannot take away the dirt. We would need to blot it out with a towel or something. This is what Jesus does for us at the cross. But Jesus does not stop there, he now works through us in order we keep our "faces" clean. We call this sanctification. However, Jesus cannot force us. We have to work in cooperation with Him through our choices for this process to run its course.
God Bless,
MoG
Romans 7:1 tells us that the Law (all of it, including those engraved in stone) only had its authority over us until we are dead.
So go back to the previous part of this conversation into Romans 6 and you will read…
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him …(we who are genuinely born of His Spirit, our old man being now judged, condemned, and crucified with Christ, is now dead…thus neither the Law nor the consequences due because of the Law, apply to us…we are not of this world but a totally new type of creature)
In Romans 7:6 we are (have been in Christ) delivered from what? The Law! Why? Because we are dead therein (and so are you) for by it we KNOW that all men have (or else will) sinned. This is exactly how the devil got his hold on us. By getting each of us to decide good and evil for ourselves we become our own lord (just as he did). The devil used the Law (which is Holy and good) to bind each and every one of us.
But despite that, God still loved us such that Christ died FOR US while we WERE YET SINNERS (spiritually dead before God) as we read in Roman’s 5:8.
Hebrews 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
And when He did this He offered Himself “once for all” and sat down (there is no new entrance into the Holy of Holies in Heaven and continuous application of the blood over and over)
Hebrews 10 tells us…”Wherefore when he came into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering thou would not, but a body you have prepared for me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither does God have pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.
He took away the first, that he may establish the second.By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all… this man (Christ Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God…by this one offering he has (past tense) perfected forever them that are sanctified (that is all and any born from above). Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
That is all of them, not an excuse to sin, but God foreknowing all that one would ever do, IN CHRIST saves the ungodly (that is us who have been born from above, because all our sins past, present, and future, have been remised)
brother Paul
So go back to the previous part of this conversation into Romans 6 and you will read…
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him …(we who are genuinely born of His Spirit, our old man being now judged, condemned, and crucified with Christ, is now dead…thus neither the Law nor the consequences due because of the Law, apply to us…we are not of this world but a totally new type of creature)
In Romans 7:6 we are (have been in Christ) delivered from what? The Law! Why? Because we are dead therein (and so are you) for by it we KNOW that all men have (or else will) sinned. This is exactly how the devil got his hold on us. By getting each of us to decide good and evil for ourselves we become our own lord (just as he did). The devil used the Law (which is Holy and good) to bind each and every one of us.
But despite that, God still loved us such that Christ died FOR US while we WERE YET SINNERS (spiritually dead before God) as we read in Roman’s 5:8.
Hebrews 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
And when He did this He offered Himself “once for all” and sat down (there is no new entrance into the Holy of Holies in Heaven and continuous application of the blood over and over)
Hebrews 10 tells us…”Wherefore when he came into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering thou would not, but a body you have prepared for me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither does God have pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.
He took away the first, that he may establish the second.By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all… this man (Christ Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God…by this one offering he has (past tense) perfected forever them that are sanctified (that is all and any born from above). Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
That is all of them, not an excuse to sin, but God foreknowing all that one would ever do, IN CHRIST saves the ungodly (that is us who have been born from above, because all our sins past, present, and future, have been remised)
brother Paul
Joel...you said "I want to clue in here. It says that sabbath was made for man not man for the sabath. It's not for Gods benefit. He doesn't need the sabbath. We do. We need that time. The sabbath is made for our benefit. Nothing else. God gave us the sabbath"
Thank God I never said "the Sabbath" was made for God huh? God did give the children of Israel the 7th day Sabbath (not us), but it is a blessed thing to take one weekly (for our benefit) only we are not bound to do so. Now if you observe it on the 7th day, the Lord bless. I think that is wonderful. Peace be unto you...
"Bigot"? "Sicko"? Thats funny, that is not the Spirit I received when I believed...your old man must still be alive. Jesus taught us not to even call your brother a fool or you are in danger of hell fire...only in Him can you find true rest (eternal rest).
brother Paul
Thank God I never said "the Sabbath" was made for God huh? God did give the children of Israel the 7th day Sabbath (not us), but it is a blessed thing to take one weekly (for our benefit) only we are not bound to do so. Now if you observe it on the 7th day, the Lord bless. I think that is wonderful. Peace be unto you...
"Bigot"? "Sicko"? Thats funny, that is not the Spirit I received when I believed...your old man must still be alive. Jesus taught us not to even call your brother a fool or you are in danger of hell fire...only in Him can you find true rest (eternal rest).
brother Paul
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Welcome back Bro. Paul
,You said in your commentary for Rom 6: 3-8: " (we who are genuinely born of His Spirit, our old man being now judged, condemned, and crucified with Christ, is now dead…thus neither the Law nor the consequences due because of the Law, apply to us…we are not of this world but a totally new type of creature)"
What do you think Paul means in Rom 6:1-2?
My friend MOG, that is not the "mirror" we have, the bitter waters have been made sweet. We are no longer looking to The Old Covenant (testament) and Moses we are looking to Christ alone and are being changed by looking to Him alone. Please read these scriptures and really meditate on what they are saying? Sorry I have to post them all, because they bear witness in context and cannot be denied as to what they are saying:
2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, (ten commandments) was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Thanks Mitspa,
Will do. I will meditate on these. In the mean time, I have one question, according to the verses you posted, as it actually reads, what was to be done away with?
God Bless,
MoG
In verse 7 the "glory" of the law and in 11. In verse 13 the law itself is "abolished" or passing away however one would like to translate it?
2673. katargew katargeo, kat-arg-eh'-o
from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
Welcome back Bro. Paul
You said in your commentary for Rom 6: 3-8: " (we who are genuinely born of His Spirit, our old man being now judged, condemned, and crucified with Christ, is now dead…thus neither the Law nor the consequences due because of the Law, apply to us…we are not of this world but a totally new type of creature)"
What do you think Paul means in Rom 6:1-2?
Well like any scripture taken alone one can make it say a lot of different things (some which it does not mean) and many scriptures allow us to use many applications (like the story of Naaman the Syrian for example) but I wonder why you asked me this for certainly nothing I posted condones one just going about living a blatantly sinful life. No longer being under the law and still living as the Spirit desired in showing us the law are two different things.
Say you have two sons. One does all they are supposed to do because they were told to and the other does what is right because it is in their spirit to do so. Both are to be commended but one is different then the other. At some point the one who does only because they are told to, when they fail, they will feel condemnation, guilt, and could even at times feel burdened. Imagine how sad for them if they were persuaded in their mind to think they were no longer in their father's love? Or that now he was going to smite them if they did not immediately do something to compensate for it? This is how the devil can gain a foothold! The other son, when he fails knows all is still well,he is confident that his father still loves him despite his temporary failing, gets himself back up and carries on knowing his shortcomings and his assets and strengths. Is not this one a son after your own heart even though neither is perfect and you love them both?
Remember what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Luke 16? He had kept all the commandments since his youth! Jesus says to him...now after you have done all that I commanded you, say to yourself, "You are an unworthy servant for you have only done your duty..."! Keeping the commandments is a good thing but they are insufficient to deal with the sin in your life...one can turn and keep all the commandments perfectly (though doubtful in light of Christ's clarification of the deeper and truer meanings in light of GOd's absolute Holiness) and die and go to the judgment without their sins being remissed. The other realizing they could not possibly meet that standard perfectly falls before God for His merciful grace and has ALL his/her sins covered by the blood (once for all) and though they are not perfect by the standards of what they do or do not do receive GRACE because He wh0o promised cannot lie, said He would do it, and did it (Hallelujah! All praise and glory belong to God alone, thank you Lord Jesus)
So I hope that put it into perspective but if you still require an exegesis I still stress that one can only know the full meaning and import of any scripture (or few strung together) by reading it as a part of the whole counsel of God on a given matter.
brother Paul
Bro. Paul,
Thank you for the explanation. What you describing is justification. I have no quarrel with that, we are only justified by what Christ did for us. And for that reason, we keep the law not to be saved but because we are saved. We uphold the law. We serve out of love.
In continuing with your analogy: you may love your sons unconditionally (grace), but you still have to teach them.. right? For example, some parents love unconditionally but let there children do whatever they want. And we see how they grow up, even to the point of loathing there parents. However, others show there children that they are loved unconditionally even when they "sin" but still show them how to do right (this represents the law). It is this combination that binds the child's heart to the parents.
This is why Paul tells us:
2 tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
FYI, this is before much of the NT was even written.
Blessings,
MoG
My friend, the scriptures are very clear on this issue. One is not justified by faith apart from the law and then put back under the law. And I have shown in very clear terms and with great detail what Paul means by upholding the law and its effect and purpose. To which you gave no reply but to repeat this same idea that Paul is somehow saying one thing in one passage and then saying a complete contradiction in the next? This is not true and I do not understand how one who appears to have your honest intentions can not see and admit what is evident?
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith:
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
The reason why they seem to me like contradictions is simply because the theology you provided so far has not reconciled them together. For my part, I see no contradiction in my theology.
Your premise is that the law is abolished. I say the opposite. The scripture makes it clear that sin is breaking the law (1 john 3:4). If this was not the case, the law would not bring fourth death. It is the law that gives sin its strength; therefore, it is only the transgression of that law that can sin be manifested. Now I did not forget that you believe that the law referred to in 1 John 3:4 is the law of faith, the law of love, and the law of the life of the Spirit of Christ (which does not make sense in the context of the epistle). But either way your still transgressing a law which is equals to sin which is also equals to death (although this idea makes the new covenant as "faulty" as the old one). Therefore, when I see Rom 6:1, 2, 2 tim 3:16, Rom 3:31, Psalms 119:86, I see contradiction in your theology, but I see reconciliation in mine.
Note: I did not forget about 2 Cor 3 from you as well as Rom 7:3-8 from Brother Paul. As I said, I will meditate on those verses. I guess I got to include these verses from Galatians you just provided as well.
God Bless,
MoG
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My premise has been proven in the clear reading of the scriptures, to which you have given no answer other than to say you disagree and therefore you are right. I see there is not much room to reason in the truth of scripture but maybe we could discuss another issue that comes to my mind when I relate to those from your group? I hope you do at least see the great difference we have in doctrine, that some of us could never accept the SDA as a true part of the church "in what we understand to be the church". I mean do you see that we are unable to come to agreement on the very core of the gospel? Aside from who is right and who is wrong, do you really expect some of us that hold these things as the True Gospel, to come into a place of fellowship in the truth, when we disagree so much about what the truth is? I know in the past when I have dealt with SDA, and have in a sense rejected them as fellow heirs of Christ, they seem almost confused that I and others would reject that they are walking in the truth. My friend you seem to have a sincere faith, I hope you are born-again? I hope I see you in heaven with the righteous in Christ. But if you are and you make it? It will not be based on the teachings you have tried to uphold, it will be because of your faith apart from any keeping of any part of the law of Moses. I thank you for your kindness and your willingness to discuss these issues.
Thank you for your kind remarks. I just want to clarify one point. You said, "My premise has been proven in the clear reading of the scriptures, to which you have given no answer other than to say you disagree and therefore you are right" I only want to comment on this remark because it implies that I have not provided any rational defense to my position. But I believe I have presented cogent points from scripture and presented my case very clearly (as you believe), starting from the very beginning of the thread. I have carefully considered the text you and other advocates of your doctrine have provided as "proof" and your interpretation of them and found the interpretation very inconsistent with the other writings of Paul. I do not expect you to agree, but it is what it is. Concerning this I believe we have reached an impasse.
But the discussion was not in vain. I have made a friend and look forward to seeing you also in the kingdom. It is sincerity of heart and complete devotion to Jesus and His sacrifice that will get us there. One thing both of us know for sure, time will flesh out all error.
God Bless,
MoG
Amen and may we both rejoice in that we both believe in a kind and gentle God, full of mercy who would, even if in our errors, find a place for us in His love. I hope that is a bit of doctrine we can both agree upon?
I have to disagree here MoG, I think these sections of Romans 6 and 7 speaks to our real spiritual condition and to how God Himself views us. Old man dead in Christ...new man made alive with Him....an entirely new creation.
Just seen a statement that should be corrected,( that 2 Tim was written before most of the NT)
I believe that Paul makes clear that the doctrine that is used for instruction in righteousness, is the very doctrine that He himself taught.
2Ti 3:10 ¶ But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Im not sure but I believe this epistle was a latter epistle, in that those responsibilities that had been Pauls, where being confirmed in Timothy.
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your still transgressing a law which is equal to sin which is also equal to death
So you are saying you are spiritually dead? For surely you have sin in your life! If you are this is good. It is a first step to depending solely and only on Christ for your salvation. Welcome to the doorway to eternal life (which is by grace through faith....it is the gift of God). Once you admit to yourself that in light of the new depth of meaning Christ put on the law you will realize you on your own effort (by what you do or so not so) are (and always will be) a miserable failure and that the ONLY hope you have is Christ and Christ alone (who fulfilled the law for all who are baptized by the Spirit into Him) then you will see the scriptures resolve the alleged contradictions IN HIM.
So you are saying you are spiritually dead? For surely you have sin in your life! If you are this is good. It is a first step to depending solely and only on Christ for your salvation. Welcome to the doorway to eternal life (which is by grace through faith....it is the gift of God). Once you admit to yourself that in light of the new depth of meaning Christ put on the law you will realize you on your own effort (by what you do or so not so) are (and always will be) a miserable failure and that the ONLY hope you have is Christ and Christ alone (who fulfilled the law for all who are baptized by the Spirit into Him) then you will see the scriptures resolve the alleged contradictions IN HIM.
Yes 2 Tim was most likely the last of Pauls epistles written right before his death, the "scriptures" and doctrine he would have been speaking of would have very much been his own epistle and the gospels and of course Paul would have included the Old Testament, but Just as Peter pointed to Pauls epistles as the source sound doctrine, Paul would have been doing very much the same.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.