How Does One Keep The Sabbath And Does It Apply To The New Covenant

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

you sound like you understand Jesus is talking about gaining salvation in this verse ..

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

and these two apply directly to what Olivia posted ..

Jhn 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
1 Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

How can life mean being saved when Jesus said I am come that they may have life and have it more abundantly. How can Jesus say that we may be saved, and be saved more abundantly...? That doesn't compute.
Salvation is everything in the Greek word sozo, it includes healing, deliverance, victory, prosperity, health, etc. The life that Jesus uses in that verse is zoe, literally the life of God, meaning it's what makes God God. So Jesus said we could have that and have it more abundantly. It is in reference to learning how to walk in the Kingdom of God (God's ways and methods, not the Kingdom of Heaven (God's physical place of residence).

 

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Since this thread was created with me in mind I will address it. I first will say this, if you are honest at heart and are not convicted about the Sabbath truth, then I would dare not ask anyone to go against their conscience. But if your conscience through your genuine study of scripture says otherwise, then do it. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. " John 14:15 If you are inquiring or want to express a disagreement, I would respectfully ask that you do it with a Christian attitude and I will do the same. The wonderful thing about God is he made us with free will, that is what makes our devotion to Him so sweet.

I will personally explain why I keep the Sabbath according to my study of scripture. It is a lengthy thought so I might break it down into little topics. If you agree, so be it, if not, so be it. Fair? We are all in different stages in our spiritual discernment. Lets agree to let the scriptures speak and have the final word. Now here is a summary of my belief about the Sabbath.

I keep the Sabbath because I believe, according to the bible, that it provides us with a glimpse of who Jesus is as creator, as redeemer, and as restorer. By keeping it, this is one of the ways I testify that Jesus is all three of these things to me. Those reasons for me are paramount to my conviction. A secondary reason includes history. For example history shows that Saturday and Sunday were kept for the 2nd, 3rd and part of the 4th century. The new testament also shows that the apostles, Jews and Gentiles often came together for worship on the Sabbath day.

Now, when discussing this controversial subject, the first verse that many elude to is found in the old testament. when Moses comes down from Mount Sinai, in Exo 20:8-11. It reads,

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Few questions arise when we study Exo 20. Why did God give these commandments? Why does God write just the 10 commandments with His own finger twice Exo 31:18, Exo 34:1, and the 612 commands and ordinances he leaves for Moses to write? Exo 34:27 Why then does God give this peculiar commandment to keep the Sabbath day?

Additional questions come when we look at the Sabbath commandment. Why does God say remember? Why must there be rest or a ceasing from works? Even if you believe it is just for the Jews, these are still valid and important questions to answer.

Why does God say remember?

God states specifically to remember to keep it (the seventh day) Holy. So the first part of the command tells us that they (the Jews) were to remember to keep the Sabbath Day holy? Well that is interesting. My question here is if they have to remember it, when did it become Holy? Well lets see what scripture tells us.

Prior to the command issued in Mt. Sinai, we find that the Jews were already being taught the idea of Sabbath keeping. This is found in Exo 16:23-26.

23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.


God was teaching His people dependence on Him. They were to gather all the manna that God provided once a day and save nothing for the next, less it spoil. (Exo 16:18-20) But the 6th day was different. On that day they had to gather twice as much. (Exo 16:23). And when they did this, it did not spoil (Exo 16:24). Well we might think, this is what God wanted them to remember. Perhaps in part, but is this when the Sabbath became Holy? Moses tells them "Tommorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath" He indicates to them, that the holy sabbath is coming, implying that this day is a day already made Holy and we must be prepared for it.
When does the Sabbath become holy?

The 4th commandment tells us when and why to keep the Sabbath, 11 For (or because) in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Here the God of heaven points to creation as the express reason to keep the Sabbath. In addition, he tells us that He blessed that day and hallowed it. But was it blessed at creation or blessed during Israels trek in the dessert?

Gen 2:1-3

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it (set it apart, another words, made it Holy) because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. So when God created mankind (not Jews), he blessed the seventh day, sanctified it or in other words, He made it Holy.


True, man was not commanded to keep the Sabbath at creation. In fact His only command at creation was not to eat of the tree of Good and Evil. I believe, this was a freewill choice by Adam and Eve, to commune and spend time with Jesus on His Holy day. In the bible, when something is Holy, it is because it is entering the very presence of God.

There are a ton of more things to add, but I want to keep it short. As I said, this is my conviction so far, of my study of scripture. More to come, if you desire it.

God Bless,
MoG

Yes, never go against your conscience, but also Hebrews says to have your heart sprinkled from an evil conscience. Meaning that your conscience can be wrong, for if someone is still observing the Sabbath as a matter of following the Law then just read Galatians 2-4 and be set free (for Chapter 4 culminates with abandoning and casting out the Law (meaning having to follow it vs following Jesus and walking in the Commandment of Love), on top of Colossians 2.
If you seek to honor God with a Sabbath, that is different and addressed in Romans, for anyone to call a day holy to be set apart unto the Lord, then God will honor that (for He honors those who honor Him), but not as a matter of legalism or adherence to the Law, which Jesus fulfilled for us, since we could never do it.

 

[Brother Paul]

Early Writings by E. G. White on page 65 she says, “The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. He has thought to change the very commandment that was given to cause man to remember his Creator. He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the Decalogue and thus make himself equal with God, or even exalt himself above God. “

This whole assumption is just incorrect (or a boldfaced lie to manipulate, you decide). First no “pope” changed the day of rest, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ providing the new birth did that. The 7th day is still the Sabbath day for all who are part of that covenant. The church however always gathered for corporate worship on the 1st day. It was the Emperor Constantine who decreed the 7th day Sabbath as a day of worship illegal in his political decree in 321 A.D., not the pope (in fact there was no such thing as “the Pope” when this was done).

No one in the leadership of the church incited this. Now being that it was also never a commandment of God to gather for corporate worship on the 7th day Sabbath, it is terrible in our modern pluralistic mindset to hinder such a freedom, but it is not against the Creator anymore then say demanding no more roasted egg on the Seder plate. People even after Constantine’s decree could observe or keep the 7th day Sabbath in all their dwellings just not publically nor ecclesiastically. In my opinion this was wrong of the Emperor but it was his to choose to do in his kingdom.

Secondly we see Ellen calling the 4th commandment “the greatest commandment in the Decalogue” in stark contradiction to what Jesus Himself said…the greatest commandment is this “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength” and the second is like the first, “Thou shalt love they neighbor as they self”…Now let’s see Jesus or Ellen, Jesus or Ellen, hmmm, let my think about this? NOT! Jesus wins, Ellen is misleading people by this whole statement (and I believe purposely to beguile her potential following). So the 4th commandment is not "the greatest commandment" in the Decalogue nor in anything else.

Effective successful propaganda always provides a scapegoat and diverts the truth to a substitute or counterfeit truth (which actually is not true). Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister once said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Now take that principle and see it as it was applied here and repeated by the many alleging authority over the years and viola….the masses buy into it without question…it’s called getting the seekers to swallow the camel whole while straining at the gnat….

In the Epistle of Barnabas, the writer most likely being a Jewish believer in Messiah around 100 A.D., we see reflected an early tradition of the followers of “the Way” which says, “we also worship on the first day, which is the eighth day“! To me this implies this real or pseudo-Barnabas also kept the 7th day Sabbath, while still keeping what the Church has always called “the Lord's day“, as did many early Christians of Hebrew descent. Certainly there is nothing wrong in this, for surely its motive is the glorification of God and His Christ.


Likewise in the Didache, as well as the Letters of Ignatius, both written around 110 A.D., the writers make further reference to Christians coming together on the first day of the week! It had nothing whatsoever to do with the day of the Sun, neither was it a compromise with pagan practices as a result of pressure from Roman Catholicism, or the Emperor Constantine, who wouldn’t be born for another few centuries, neither of which were politically, or physically, established as any kind of dominating influence, or ruling power, at that time.

We worship on this day in memory and celebration of the resurrection, celebrating the victory won for us over sin and death, and we do so in the unity of the Spirit, to bring glory to the LORD God our Father.


Later, but still hundreds of years before the Constantine accusation, Justin Martyr around 150 A.D. writes regarding our gathering together that it was on “the first day after the Sabbath, remaining first of all days, called however the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and remaining the first“. Notice Justin does not deny the 7th day is the Sabbath? But that is irrelevant to this practice of gathering for worship and in no wise required (so do not be deceived).

His contemporaries elsewhere (see Iranaeus, and Bardasian) refer to “the Lord’s Day of resurrection“ as being the 1st day of the week! Therefore, how the elders and learned ones of Christian gatherings like the SDA can know these truths (and they do) and yet intentionally hold them back from their flocks is beyond me. On occasion, it has caused me to question the sincerity of some of their leaders in some of these congregations (and my wife Salome and I have attended Sabbatarian services and they are beautiful and sincere and the people LOVE Jesus and are dedicated to what they have been taught). Surely the leaders though are to take blame, for though they KNOW what I have just showed you, the children will believe what they are taught by those they love and trust. So if you desire to glorify God in this way do so to His glory rejoicing, but do not do it or be afraid to not do it out of guilt, because that is bondage and that is the work of Satan, and do not impose it on others who know it is not required by God because then you are speaking something for God that God did not say...

This unending historical confirmation continues in other places through Clement and Tertullian around 200 A.D., which again is clearly a solid century before the birth of Constantine. Then, shortly after this, Cyprian the Bishop of Carthage (around 225 A.D), says that the Lord’s Day upon which Christians worship “is both the first day and the eighth day“!

Now it is clear that all these local bodies, regardless of which Apostle founded them and prepared their first leaders, regardless of where they were (Palestine, Syria, Greece, Rome, Carthage, etc.,) all were taught the same thing, believed the same thing, and practiced the same thing. So do not let anyone fool you with rhetorical argument and misstatement of facts…God does not command a day to gather for corporate worship and when born from above we worship Him every day (from new moon to new moon, from Sabbath to Sabbath) not just on the 7th day. Our rest (the eternal rest) is IN CHRIST of that you can be assured.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Early Writings by E. G. White on page 65 she says, “The pope has changed the day of rest from the seventh to the first day. He has thought to change the very commandment that was given to cause man to remember his Creator. He has thought to change the greatest commandment in the Decalogue and thus make himself equal with God, or even exalt himself above God. “

This whole assumption is just incorrect (or a boldfaced lie to manipulate, you decide). First no “pope” changed the day of rest, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ providing the new birth did that. The 7th day is still the Sabbath day for all who are part of that covenant. The church however always gathered for corporate worship on the 1st day. It was the Emperor Constantine who decreed the 7th day Sabbath as a day of worship illegal in his political decree in 321 A.D., not the pope (in fact there was no such thing as “the Pope” when this was done).

No one in the leadership of the church incited this. Now being that it was also never a commandment of God to gather for corporate worship on the 7th day Sabbath, it is terrible in our modern pluralistic mindset to hinder such a freedom, but it is not against the Creator anymore then say demanding no more roasted egg on the Seder plate. People even after Constantine’s decree could observe or keep the 7th day Sabbath in all their dwellings just not publically nor ecclesiastically. In my opinion this was wrong of the Emperor but it was his to choose to do in his kingdom.

Secondly we see Ellen calling the 4th commandment “the greatest commandment in the Decalogue” in stark contradiction to what Jesus Himself said…the greatest commandment is this “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength” and the second is like the first, “Thou shalt love they neighbor as they self”…Now let’s see Jesus or Ellen, Jesus or Ellen, hmmm, let my think about this? NOT! Jesus wins, Ellen is misleading people by this whole statement (and I believe purposely to beguile her potential following). So the 4th commandment is not "the greatest commandment" in the Decalogue nor in anything else.

Effective successful propaganda always provides a scapegoat and diverts the truth to a substitute or counterfeit truth (which actually is not true). Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister once said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Now take that principle and see it as it was applied here and repeated by the many alleging authority over the years and viola….the masses buy into it without question…it’s called getting the seekers to swallow the camel whole while straining at the gnat….

In the Epistle of Barnabas, the writer most likely being a Jewish believer in Messiah around 100 A.D., we see reflected an early tradition of the followers of “the Way” which says, “we also worship on the first day, which is the eighth day“! To me this implies this real or pseudo-Barnabas also kept the 7th day Sabbath, while still keeping what the Church has always called “the Lord's day“, as did many early Christians of Hebrew descent. Certainly there is nothing wrong in this, for surely its motive is the glorification of God and His Christ.


Likewise in the Didache, as well as the Letters of Ignatius, both written around 110 A.D., the writers make further reference to Christians coming together on the first day of the week! It had nothing whatsoever to do with the day of the Sun, neither was it a compromise with pagan practices as a result of pressure from Roman Catholicism, or the Emperor Constantine, who wouldn’t be born for another few centuries, neither of which were politically, or physically, established as any kind of dominating influence, or ruling power, at that time.

We worship on this day in memory and celebration of the resurrection, celebrating the victory won for us over sin and death, and we do so in the unity of the Spirit, to bring glory to the LORD God our Father.


Later, but still hundreds of years before the Constantine accusation, Justin Martyr around 150 A.D. writes regarding our gathering together that it was on “the first day after the Sabbath, remaining first of all days, called however the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and remaining the first“. Notice Justin does not deny the 7th day is the Sabbath? But that is irrelevant to this practice of gathering for worship and in no wise required (so do not be deceived).

His contemporaries elsewhere (see Iranaeus, and Bardasian) refer to “the Lord’s Day of resurrection“ as being the 1st day of the week! Therefore, how the elders and learned ones of Christian gatherings like the SDA can know these truths (and they do) and yet intentionally hold them back from their flocks is beyond me. On occasion, it has caused me to question the sincerity of some of their leaders in some of these congregations (and my wife Salome and I have attended Sabbatarian services and they are beautiful and sincere and the people LOVE Jesus and are dedicated to what they have been taught). Surely the leaders though are to take blame, for though they KNOW what I have just showed you, the children will believe what they are taught by those they love and trust. So if you desire to glorify God in this way do so to His glory rejoicing, but do not do it or be afraid to not do it out of guilt, because that is bondage and that is the work of Satan, and do not impose it on others who know it is not required by God because then you are speaking something for God that God did not say...

This unending historical confirmation continues in other places through Clement and Tertullian around 200 A.D., which again is clearly a solid century before the birth of Constantine. Then, shortly after this, Cyprian the Bishop of Carthage (around 225 A.D), says that the Lord’s Day upon which Christians worship “is both the first day and the eighth day“!

Now it is clear that all these local bodies, regardless of which Apostle founded them and prepared their first leaders, regardless of where they were (Palestine, Syria, Greece, Rome, Carthage, etc.,) all were taught the same thing, believed the same thing, and practiced the same thing. So do not let anyone fool you with rhetorical argument and misstatement of facts…God does not command a day to gather for corporate worship and when born from above we worship Him every day (from new moon to new moon, from Sabbath to Sabbath) not just on the 7th day. Our rest (the eternal rest) is IN CHRIST of that you can be assured.

Good evening Brother Paul!,

I would like to make clear that I do not have a heaven or hell to put you in. If you are convicted that the bible teaches Sunday sacredness over Sabbath worship, then by all means follow your convictions. Better to be honest and follow what God says then to yield to error . However, If you are convicted of the Sabbath truth, I would offer the same advice. Now I will address the EGW quote even though it relates more to Ellen White's authenticity then it does the Sabbath topic you created. It may not convince you but this is distinctly my perspective.

Have you ever had a bible skeptic approach you with a superficial argument against scripture? For example, one skeptic website claims that there is no archeological evidence for the exodus of the Jews from Egypt (although I believe there is), no evidence of the 10 plagues, no extra-biblical evidence for the existence of King David and Solomon etc.. But when I hear this, does this shake my faith? Not in the slightest. Why not? Because the Bible has already given me sufficient evidence in which to base my faith on. Further more, the absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.

Therefore, I concede that there is no direct evidence in recorded history that a Pope made an outright declaration, but that does not preclude its existence. If she claimed that the history books show this to be the case , then that is different. But this is something she was show in vision from God, and because I already have sufficient evidence to base my faith, I have no reason to doubt its accuracy. You on the other hand may have never considered the evidence; therefore, it make sense for you to be dubious.

With that out of the way, it is no secret that the ecclesiastic of the RCC makes the claims that they are responsible for changing the Sabbath, even to the point of it appearing in their official catechism.

Probably the most telling quote of how the Catholic institution felt comes from the Bishop of Ceasara-- a contemporary of Constantine. (note: the following quotes are just to make the point that authorities in Catholicism have long felt that Sunday sacredness is a mark of their authority and is not meant on my part to belittle Sunday worship.)

All things whatsoever that were prescribed for the [Bible] Sabbath, we have transferred them to the Lord’s day, as being more authoratative and more highly regarded and first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.”—Bishop Eusebius, quoted in J.P. Migne, “Patrologie,” p. 23, 1169-1172 [Eusebius of Caesarea was a high-ranking Catholic leader during Constantine’s lifetime].

"About 590, Pope Gregory, in a letter to the Roman people, denounced as the prophets of Antichrist those who maintained that work ought not to be done on the seventh day.”—James T. Ringgold, The Law of Sunday, p. 267.

Council of Laodicea:

Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday (Sabbath), but shall work on that Day: but the Lord’s Day, they shall especially honour; and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.

Catholic Press newspaper in Sidney, Australia."

“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From the beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”

The Catholic Mirror of September 23, 1894:

The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.

Cardinal Gibbons’ book, The Question Box, p.179:

“If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing Saturday with the Jew. Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Catholic Church?”

etc...


God Bless!
MoG

 

[Brother Paul]

Thank you MoG. So all you did was prove my point. All of these references are AFTER the legislated decree of Constantine and in more recent times RC statements...that certainly does not answer any of the BIBLICALLY verifiable points I have made.

Before Exodus = no Sabbath observance commanded or observed by mankind

Sabbath observance commanded = the covenant YHVH made with the children of Israel (not even with their fathers) is their covenant perpetually

Sabbath observance is NOT a commandment regarding the day of the week we are to gather for corporate worship at some synagogue (which only existed after Babylon) or the Tabernacle or the Temple ad was never observed in this way even by the covenant people (just the true Biblically demonstrated fact)

Jesus and the Apostles went to synagogue (though contrary to Torah) as was their custom (tradition of men) that was developed during the Babylonian Captivity…it is not the commandment of God (though it does not matter what day we keep, the church from the beginning met on the 1st day for corporate worship)...Jesus and the apostles also kept the feast of dedication and wore a tallith for prayer as was their custom (so if this practice is the reason we also should, then do you also do these?)

The New Covenant makes no command to keep the Sabbath or that going to synagogue or church on that day is the “right” or “correct” day…

Your absence of evidence does not prove evidence of absence is a fine principle but your "spirit of prophecy" (which she is not) is not God, this libe of reasoning applied to Biblical things makes the infallibility of the pope justifiable. Where the word is silent lat us also be silent and be not dogmatic on points not validated at least by the Apostles and those taught directly by them (they know just a little better wouldn't you think?).

In His love

brother Paul

 

[Man-ofGod]

Careful Brother Paul,

Are you saying our Saviour did not keep the law perfectly? If so, where did He break it? Bible verses, both old and new testament verses please.

God Bless,
MoG

 

[Brother Paul]

That's funny, I do not recall saying any such thing. Can you quote me please? To what specifically are you referring? Have you found a command or ordinance yet where it tells us (or even the ancient Israelites) to gather at some place other than the home for corporate worship on the 7th day? Or where it is commanded at all (for us to do) before Exodus? How about a pre-Babylonian example when the Israelites kept this practice? No? Oh! That's right there is none...maybe because IT is not part of the Law. And as for the New Covenant church (ekklesia), we are not under the Law...look I will show you again...

2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (like the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).


7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?


9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).


10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.


In the Exodus Pentecost (Shavuot), 50 days after the deliverance of Israel, the Lord gave the letter of the Law engraved in stone. It was at Mount Sinai in Arabia (called also Horeb), the mount of God in the land of Jethro of Midian…as Moses came down declaring the Commandments the people fled and 3,000 eternally died


(You shall, you shall, you shall not, you shall not…it is all about “Thou” and the eye turns onto self)


In the Acts Pentecost, 50 days after deliverance of whosoever will that would come, the Lord gave the Spirit, and wrote all we need in our hearts. It was on Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem the city made Holy by God. Jesus went UP giving the Spirit and 3,000 were eternally saved.


(And they went about preaching the wonderful works of God…they glorified Christ, led them to salvation…it’s all about God and the eye turns to Christ…what He said and what He did and His gracious offer of love – 2:37-39)


Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.


Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.


Colossians 213 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.


So He not only nailed our sins to the cross but also the ordinances against us so they no longer have any effect…by grace we are SAVED.

or is Paul the trained Rabbinical Pharisee (a Lawyer) mistaken? What say ye?

And I do love you my brother, that's why I am telling you this

brother Paul

 

[Man-ofGod]

That's funny, I do not recall saying any such thing. Can you quote me please? To what specifically are you referring? Have you found a command or ordinance yet where it tells us (or even the ancient Israelites) to gather at some place other than the home for corporate worship on the 7th day? Or where it is commanded at all (for us to do) before Exodus? How about a pre-Babylonian example when the Israelites kept this practice? No? Oh! That's right there is none...maybe because IT is not part of the Law. And as for the New Covenant church (ekklesia), we are not under the Law...look I will show you again...

2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (like the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).


7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?


9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).


10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.


In the Exodus Pentecost (Shavuot), 50 days after the deliverance of Israel, the Lord gave the letter of the Law engraved in stone. It was at Mount Sinai in Arabia (called also Horeb), the mount of God in the land of Jethro of Midian…as Moses came down declaring the Commandments the people fled and 3,000 eternally died


(You shall, you shall, you shall not, you shall not…it is all about “Thou” and the eye turns onto self)


In the Acts Pentecost, 50 days after deliverance of whosoever will that would come, the Lord gave the Spirit, and wrote all we need in our hearts. It was on Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem the city made Holy by God. Jesus went UP giving the Spirit and 3,000 were eternally saved.


(And they went about preaching the wonderful works of God…they glorified Christ, led them to salvation…it’s all about God and the eye turns to Christ…what He said and what He did and His gracious offer of love – 2:37-39)


Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.


Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.


Colossians 213 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.


So He not only nailed our sins to the cross but also the ordinances against us so they no longer have any effect…by grace we are SAVED.

or is Paul the trained Rabbinical Pharisee (a Lawyer) mistaken? What say ye?

And I do love you my brother, that's why I am telling you this

brother Paul

Hi Bro. Paul

As you requested, I am quoting you:

"Jesus and the Apostles went to synagogue (though contrary to Torah)"

You said that Jesus did something contrary to the Torah aka the law of God as revealed through Moses. Are you implying that Jesus did not keep the law perfectly? Thanks for clarifying.

God Bless,
MoG

 

[Brother Paul]

NO what I said was true (Exodus 16:29; Leviticus 23:3)! As Jesus revealed the Law we understand that this practice is acceptable (permissible), but it was not required (like doing good on the Sabbath...one can and probably should, the Pharisaic legalism had imposed restrictions not written in the Torah). That everyone should attend the synagogue on the 7th day Sabbath IS NOT the Law , not the Torah (it was a custom). So the Torah says do not go from your place, and to observe the Sabbath "in all your dwellings", but here they were leaving their homes and going to one place together for corporate worship (no where commanded). Thus contrary not as in "against", but as in "opposite to"!

The Law is good and holy and ever shall be. Through Jesus enlightenment to its truest meaning we know now that no human being can keep it diligently, thus all sin (even now...occasionally do you get angry, or does a lustful thought emerge even though you do well resisting such things)? Even "work" is a relative term (do you not get up and get out your best clothes, and get all the kids ready, and rush to your car and ignite a fire to get to the Temple on time?). Should one leave their donkey in a pit on the Sabbath? Or not also honor their mother or father? We know now the only way to be right with God is totally trusting in and rely on His provision (Christ) and His finished (no investigative judgment) work. By grace are you saved through faith.

If you make keeping the 7th day equal attending Church you are not obeying what was written in the Law. If you say keeping the Law is necessary for salvation (and I am not condoning breaking it) then you are obligated to keep the whole Law (in which case you have failed and are to be judged by the Law). Now I have already been judged by the Law and have been found wanting. God and I both know I have fallen short (that was the purpose of the Law). This old man is judged and condemned being nailed to the cross with and in Christ Jesus (praise God and thanks be unto Him for the new man born from above) and when I shed this old tent he goes with it. I am a new creature both eternal and temporal (Christ-like) and daily being conformed into His image, but not by works of righteousness that I have done but by His mercy I am saved, sanctified, and Holy Spirit filled. My faith makes me right with God not my ability or inability to live up to some list of do's and don'ts. I no longer strive to obtain righteousness by the works of the Law but in me the law is fulfilled, because Christ fulfilled the Law and I have been born again IN HIM. I am in Him and He is in me (like He prayed in John 17).

 

[God calls me Olivia]

Brother Paul,

Seeing that God is not arbitrary like a dictator but does all things for our benefit, why do you think God made that day Holy?

God Bless,
MoG

The holiness that God is referring to is God's holiness which we rest in when we walk in His Spirit. When someone walks by the desires of their flesh they are in sin in the work of Adam. Although a believer is saved they still choose moment to moment to either rest in God (which is having his work not ours working through us) or to walk in their own works (which is unholy walking that is not in faith of God, but walking by the law for self righteousness or walking in complete lawlessness). A believer should every moment be resting in God's holiness, obedient to the work of God through them, which is not burdonsome.[/quote]

 

[Mitspa]

Of course the Old Testament is going to uphold the "OLD" law, but it is absolute and clear in the New Covenant that we are not under any part of the law, but that which the law represented in the "letter" is fulfilled in us by the Spirit. So when one ceases from their own "works" and the Spirit of Grace (I labored more abundantly than they all) works righteousness through them, they have entered into the true Sabbath, in fact it goes much deeper than this, for the Sabbath represents the "eternal" Day of the Lord. Those who walk in the flesh, set their minds on "temporal" things, those who walk in the Spirit on "eternal" things.

 

[ixoye_8]

Of course the Old Testament is going to uphold the "OLD" law, but it is absolute and clear in the New Covenant that we are not under any part of the law, but that which the law represented in the "letter" is fulfilled in us by the Spirit. So when one ceases from their own "works" and the Spirit of Grace (I labored more abundantly than they all) works righteousness through them, they have entered into the true Sabbath, in fact it goes much deeper than this, for the Sabbath represents the "eternal" Day of the Lord. Those who walk in the flesh, set their minds on "temporal" things, those who walk in the Spirit on "eternal" things.

very good ..
note: the 10 commandments are NOT part of the Law of Moses, and do apply to the Covenant of Faith as told to us by Jesus & John ..
the Law of Moses was given at a later date ..

the only minor part I have a difference in is ..
"works of the Law of Moses" were not "their works" ..
nor would "works of the Law of Christ" be "our works" ..
but both were done for God's glory ..
the Law of Moses had sacrifices for atonement, hence "works" of the Law of Moses never imputed righteousness alone .. nor does just belief alone impute righteousness under the Covenant of Faith ..
in reality there is no difference in the "two works" themselves, because righteousness is imputed through God by belief and action in both covenants ..
the difference is the Covenant of Moses did not have redemption only atonement ..

God Bless you ..

 

[Mitspa]

very good ..
note: the 10 commandments are NOT part of the Law of Moses, and do apply to the Covenant of Faith as told to us by Jesus & John ..
the Law of Moses was given at a later date ..

the only minor part I have a difference in is ..
"works of the Law of Moses" were not "their works" ..
nor would "works of the Law of Christ" be "our works" ..
but both were done for God's glory ..
the Law of Moses had sacrifices for atonement, hence "works" of the Law of Moses never imputed righteousness alone .. nor does just belief impute righteousness under the Covenant of Faith ..
in reality there is no difference in the "two works" themselves, because righteousness is imputed through God by belief and action in both covenants ..
the difference is the Covenant of Moses did not have redemption only atonement ..

God Bless you ..

What? are you really trying to suggest that the 10 commandments are not part of the law of Moses? I cannot believe that someone would make that statement?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

what part of the law of Moses, was written and engraved on stones? only the ten commandments.

 

[Brother Paul]

the letter kills but the Spirit gives life

 

[aha]

What? are you really trying to suggest that the 10 commandments are not part of the law of Moses? I cannot believe that someone would make that statement?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

2 Co 3:7b> But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

what part of the law of Moses, was written and engraved on stones? only the ten commandments.

Question: is divorce a law of God, law of man, or law of man with legislative authority from God...

I believe in the latter….

As I see it, understand Matthew 19:1-12,

 

[Brother Paul]

God granted it (very conditional) because of the hardness of people's hearts (some cannot forgive this offense).

 

[ixoye_8]

What? are you really trying to suggest that the 10 commandments are not part of the law of Moses? I cannot believe that someone would make that statement?

What? are you really trying to suggest that the 10 commandments are part of the law of Moses? I cannot believe that someone would make that statement ..

 

[ixoye_8]

JESUS ..

Mat 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Mar 10:19 "You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'”

Jhn 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Jhn 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

PAUL ..

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

JOHN ..

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

PROPHECY ..

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

 

[Brother Paul]

Yes and isn't it strange that were are able to do this without following a list? We just by nature (the changed nature) do what is right in the Law...

 

[ixoye_8]

Yes and isn't it strange that were are able to do this without following a list? We just by nature (the changed nature) do what is right in the Law...

the list of 10 is timeless and aside from either Covenant ..

that is ideal ..
2Cr 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

but not always so ..
I have met many Christians who do not have them written in their hearts ..
aka a work in progress .. sometimes we must fight an internal battle not to covet another's, job, popularity etc ..