I am interested in your explanation for Trinitarianism or non Trinitarianism/Unitarianism

Nov 30, 2014
72
25
18
42
Why not post "one" Scripture which you need to understand and allow the people here to help you with it.

If you do just "One" at a time, it will allow a more detailed and through discussion and then you can do another one when you believe that you have a better understanding.
Thanks Major, however I might post a list. I looked on the internet and have found someone posted on an interfaith forum the following which I copied as it is:


1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Thanks Major, however I might post a list. I looked on the internet and have found someone posted on an interfaith forum the following which I copied as it is:


1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
I appreciate your efforts but you see, with all those Scriptures, if I responded to each one of them the post to do so would be so long that most people would not take the time to read it. That is WHY I asked you to do only one Scripture at a time, discuss it and then go on to the next one.

Having said that I will take you 1st posted Scripture of

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Then you said...…….
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.


That is actually a good question. Now I need to warn you about something. IF.....IF you are wanting to disprove ANYTHING in Christian theology, you will always be able to find those web sites that exist to disprove Christian doctrines. That very same fact applies to the Trinity. I am telling you that so that you will realize that anyone can find anything to support what THEY THINK but that does not make it true. The truth of God's Word comes through the CONTEXTUAL supplication of ALL the Scriptures together not ONE or TWO that we THINK will support what we WWANT THEM TO SAY.

Having said that, The explanation will be lengthy and rather technical so hang on.

According to Phillipans 2:5 …...…
"Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Traditional, orthodox Christian teaching is that Jesus, when on earth, was fully God and fully man at the same time. In order to attain our salvation, the Godhead determined in ages past, before the Creation, that the act of disobedience in the garden of Eden would be countered by an equal act of obedience.
To that end, by his own divine determination Jesus, God the Son, chose to limit himself to an exercise of power equal to that which an obedient human could exercise. That is, he emptied himself of his equality with God and for a time operated out of a limited human power.

All that he knew while in this humbled state he knew because the Father revealed it to him through the Holy Spirit. That is why we can do "these things and greater", because he operated in the same power and revelation that the Holy Spirit grants the church. As he himself said in John 5:19...…...…...……
"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."

In theory at any time, Jesus could have shrugged off the mantel of humanity and resumed his Godly state; but had he done so our salvation would have been lost, perfect obedience would have been broken and the unity of the Trinity would have been shattered. You see, the Trinity is an "essential" to our salvation just as much as is the Resurrection.

That is why I say, in theory, because the area of understanding the dual natures of the Son is a deep mystery that we as humans can only explore and probe, but never fully understand until we see him in glory in the next life. Then the great mysteries of God will be revealed to us.

So when Jesus said that he, the Son, did not know the day or the hour of his second coming, he meant only that as the Son of Man (i.e. Jesus in his limited state during his earthly ministry) the Father had not revealed to him the time of his return, only that he would return.

WHY? Because to pay the penalty of MAN'S sin, Jesus the Christ had to be a 100% HUMAN MAN.

I hope this allow you to see that the Scripture you posted DOES NOT affect the doctrine of the Trinity at all. The only thing it show is that if we do the work and study we will always be able to find the correct exegesis of those questions that trouble us.

Now lets be patient, and allow you and others to comment and when you are happy with the responses....we can do another Scripture.
 
Nov 30, 2014
72
25
18
42
Major, I didn’t comment on the verses. Whoever compiled a list commented. Like I said I just searched on the net for a list since I was sure I was going to find a list in favour of non Trinitarian views. I got it from an interfaith forum.
I have read the verses and comments, but I haven’t compiled them myself nor have I commented like I said.
 
Feb 10, 2015
939
1,109
93
Maryland
That is actually a good question. Now I need to warn you about something. IF.....IF you are wanting to disprove ANYTHING in Christian theology, you will always be able to find those web sites that exist to disprove Christian doctrines. That very same fact applies to the Trinity. I am telling you that so that you will realize that anyone can find anything to support what THEY THINK but that does not make it true. The truth of God's Word comes through the CONTEXTUAL supplication of ALL the Scriptures together not ONE or TWO that we THINK will support what we WWANT THEM TO SAY.
In the end, whether to believe or not comes down to a decision to follow Christ or not. This is only enabled by the Holy Spirit.

To completely understand scripture one must not only know all of scripture, and I'll let you ponder both the breadth and depth required, but also hear and heed the interpretations given you by the Holy Spirit and be able to discern the difference between these and your own inner thoughts.

Fortunately, it is not necessary to know, understand and accept all of scripture, though the more you know and the better you know it the more you can apply to your understanding of God in all His revealed facets. The most fundamental thing is the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

As a general statement about many of your issues, I will say that there is always an interplay between Jesus as 100% human and Christ as 100% God. (I separate the human name "Jesus" and the theological title "Christ" only to help in my own thoughts). His oneness with the Father and the Spirit as well as the separateness of each seems to man to be self contradictory and must at some level simply be accepted on faith as one is empowered to do so by the Holy Spirit. The difficulty lies in our limitations more than in inconsistency in scripture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Nov 30, 2014
72
25
18
42
Can the following from Job mean that Jesus is somehow God Almighty in flesh?

25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end He will stand on the earth
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Major, I didn’t comment on the verses. Whoever compiled a list commented. Like I said I just searched on the net for a list since I was sure I was going to find a list in favour of non Trinitarian views. I got it from an interfaith forum.
I have read the verses and comments, but I haven’t compiled them myself nor have I commented like I said.
I understand. But I think YOU are the one who needs to be considering the questions and not another forum site. All that will do is give you someone elses opinion and it may not be Scriptural.
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Can the following from Job mean that Jesus is somehow God Almighty in flesh?

25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end He will stand on the earth
That is actually Job 19:25.

Another good question.

It could mean that at the day of the general resurrection and judgment, which, as those holy patriarchs well knew of in Jobs day, and firmly believed, was to be at the end of the world.

Job may be considered as professing his faith in the incarnation of the Messiah.

Now, whether or not Job had Christ in mind I do not know. However it is 100% true that Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh. He was totally man and totally God.

Why is that the case. Because to pay for YOUR sin so that YOU can go to heaven eternally, He had to be a 100% human being.
However, because He was God, He could not stay dead therefore His resurrection from the dead is the verification of our salvation.

And then he could have been speaking of the Christ whose name he did not know. I for one believe he was speaking of Jesus who was the redeemer and He did come in the flesh.

FYI......Job is generally considered to be the oldest book of the Bible.
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Ok, thanks everyone. I suppose I have to do more research. There are verses where it seems different.
Now please do not take this comment as derogatory or correcting. I only have one agenda and that is to correctly divide and understand the Word of God. So then my goal is to do that with YOU as YOU asked the question about the Trinity. I say this to you with all Christian love and respect to you.

And it is this......are you approaching this subject of the Trinity with the intent of proving it Biblically OR, are you searching to disprove the Trinity by comparing Scriptures that to you "just seem different"????

Please understand that the Scriptures can never ever be cherry picked out of the Bible because someone said this one fits what we think or this one is what we were looking for. To do correct exegesis of the Scriptures, Every single Bible Scripture must be taken in CONTEXT!

Understanding context begins with four principles:
1. literal meaning (what it says),
2. historical setting (the events of the story, to whom is it addressed, and how it was understood at that time),
3. grammar (the immediate sentence and paragraph within which a word or phrase is found)
4. and synthesis (comparing it with other parts of Scripture for a fuller meaning).

Context is crucial to biblical exegesis in that it is one of its most important fundamentals. After we account for the literal, historical, and grammatical nature of a passage, we must then focus on the outline and structure of the book, then the chapter, then the paragraph. All of these things refer to "context."

To illustrate, it is like looking at Google Maps and zooming in on one house in Macon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Siloam
Feb 10, 2015
939
1,109
93
Maryland
Peki
Just to get a better understanding of your understanding of trinitrian theology, what is your view of the Holy Spirit? Do you know and accept that He exists, that He is a _person_ or His relationship to the Father and the Son? Do you accept that He indwells believers?



By the way... My first name is John, my last name starts with H. I do not mind telling this, but there are many who feel uneasy giving their real name. It's not to be deceptive or even covert, but a matter of personal security.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Nov 30, 2014
72
25
18
42
Hi John. I think that Holy Spirit is like Gods force and in a way one with God. So God is with us through the Holy Spirit and yes the Holy Spirit is like a person. Yes he does indwell believers. I believe that Holy Spirit is the comforter.
 
Nov 30, 2014
72
25
18
42
John, I think I am slowly understanding your reason for asking me that question.
 
Feb 10, 2015
939
1,109
93
Maryland
John, I think I am slowly understanding your reason for asking me that question.
My only reason was/is that the better I understand where you come from, the better I can possibly aid you in your understanding of Him [in all His persons both individually (each) and collectively (The whole of GOD)]. I am just a layman, but I have done investigation of my own and meditated on this.

Hi John. I think that Holy Spirit is like Gods force and in a way one with God. So God is with us through the Holy Spirit and yes the Holy Spirit is like a person. Yes he does indwell believers. I believe that Holy Spirit is the comforter.
The thing that stands out to me in your post are the qualifications. You say "like Gods force" and "like a person". Leaving aside the fact that my view of force is something different than you probably mean, I tend to think scientifically when scientific words are used. Whatever the Spirit is, HE is not like anything. HE IS. But similes may help us understand Him, but His foundational attributes should not be qualified.

Some things I have learned for myself, and I do not presume to be any authority, is
  • the Holy Spirit is a person.
  • He rejoices.
  • He can be grieved, ect.
I would point out that while one can read the Old Testament without understanding this, He was hidden in plain sight, and once one learns to look, the Holy Spirit stands out and is explicitly seen in all of God's dealing with man and creation.

I want you to understand that one cannot truly know and love God without the Spirit's leading. With the Spirit's leading, the things of the Father, the Son as well as the Holy Spirit become easier to accept.

His (the Spirit's) influence is what brings us to Christ, what tells us of our sin, and enables our prayers for forgiveness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
My understanding has changed. I now believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, but not God.
Colossians 2:9 does not agree with you as it says.......
" For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. "

John 10:30........
“I and the Father are one.”

Joh 8:58.........
“I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am! "

John 1:1..........
“The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh”

IF Jesus is not the God-Man, 100% go and 100% Man then He is a liar and has propagated the biggest hoax ever placed upon humanity AND........
we are all lost in our sin and destined for Hell.
 

Via dolarossa

Helper
Staff member
Helper
Sep 22, 2016
557
875
93
52
Uk
Praying peki..
That the Truth is revealed to you.

This path is personal, and It may well will be revealed to you the way He knows best.

He( The Holy Spirit) revealed it to me in the most unusual way. Not through scripture, which is what I expected, but With a miracle. it lined up with scripture perfectly. He basically killed 2 birds with one stone when He showed me the Trinity. All this happened after my conviction.

xxx
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Praying peki..
That the Truth is revealed to you.

This path is personal, and It may well will be revealed to you the way He knows best.

He( The Holy Spirit) revealed it to me in the most unusual way. Not through scripture, which is what I expected, but With a miracle. it lined up with scripture perfectly. He basically killed 2 birds with one stone when He showed me the Trinity. All this happened after my conviction.

xxx

Proverbs 2:6 (ESV)
" For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding".

It has always amazed me that when we become saved, a child of God, how things all of a sudden become very clear in our understanding.
For the Christian, knowledge implies a relationship.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Colossians 2:9 does not agree with you as it says.......
" For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. "

John 10:30........
“I and the Father are one.”

Joh 8:58.........
“I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am! "

John 1:1..........
“The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh”

IF Jesus is not the God-Man, 100% go and 100% Man then He is a liar and has propagated the biggest hoax ever placed upon humanity AND........
we are all lost in our sin and destined for Hell.
I just noticed that I did not spell GOD correctly above. Should have been......100% GOD and 100% Man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa

Via dolarossa

Helper
Staff member
Helper
Sep 22, 2016
557
875
93
52
Uk
Ok peeps, I’m gonna have a crack at the distinction between Christ and The Father...
Major, if you see anything wrong please correct this😊

my own view..
. The Father is like a circle with Christ as a smaller circle in the middle. The Father is greater than Christ. Both are of the same nature.
The omniscient nature of the Father is wider in scope than Christ. hence Christ doesn’t know His return

🥴
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Sep 3, 2009
12,340
5,015
113
Florida
Ok peeps, I’m gonna have a crack at the distinction between Christ and The Father...
Major, if you see anything wrong please correct this😊

my own view..
. The Father is like a circle with Christ as a smaller circle in the middle. The Father is greater than Christ. Both are of the same nature.
The omniscient nature of the Father is wider in scope than Christ. hence Christ doesn’t know His return

🥴
I am honored that you would think I need to be asked to correct you.

I would only say that from the Scriptures we can see that since Jesus possesses "all the fullness" of God he possesses the divine nature and is one with the Father.

Paul tells us in 1 Corth. 10:4 that Jesus was 'the rock' or divine Being who led the ancient Israelites throughout their wilderness journeys.

Similarly, Paul in Romans 14 calls Christ the Lord then applies an Old Testament text about "the Lord" (the Eternal Father) to Him, and finishes stating we shall all be judged by him in Romans 14:9 - 12.

This is only some of the evidence showing that not only is Jesus God but that both he and the Father are one.

Also, Jesus says repeatedly that He is doing the Father’s will, thereby implying that He is somehow subservient to the Father. The question then becomes how can Jesus be equal to God when by His own admission He is subservient to the will of God?

Again, IMHO the answer to this question lies within the nature of the incarnation which I posted in comment #22.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa
Dec 19, 2014
6,181
2,608
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Can I make an attempt to answer one of the questions.
How can Jesus be equal to God when by His own admission He is subservient to the will of God?

Well you have to understand that on earth Jesus was God's son, and being man he was restricted in what he could do in the flesh (while still being divine, as he could do what nobody else could do with God's spirit) But in Heaven he's seated at the right hand side of God, and God the Father has actually given Jesus the very throne Himself. They are a team. See revelation in which the Lamb of God is seated on the throne WITH God (you can picture him on his lap).

Nobody else we can call Lord, not even King David or Solomon were ever sinless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HisChild
Feb 10, 2015
939
1,109
93
Maryland
Can I make an attempt to answer one of the questions.
How can Jesus be equal to God when by His own admission He is subservient to the will of God?

Well you have to understand that on earth Jesus was God's son, and being man he was restricted in what he could do in the flesh (while still being divine, as he could do what nobody else could do with God's spirit) But in Heaven he's seated at the right hand side of God, and God the Father has actually given Jesus the very throne Himself. They are a team. See revelation in which the Lamb of God is seated on the throne WITH God (you can picture him on his lap).

Nobody else we can call Lord, not even King David or Solomon were ever sinless.
Jesus is fully fully human and thus subservient as the first of creation. Christ is fully God and is submissive to (but not less important than) The Father by His eternal relationship in the whole.

In human organizations, whether the church or commercial enterprises, the best leaders recognize that the leadership is nothing without those that are lead. Neither is pre-eminent but perform their offices as a unified whole.

The better
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major