I am interested in your explanation for Trinitarianism or non Trinitarianism/Unitarianism

Aug 15, 2020
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I have an idea how the Trinity might be explained. If you do not like it please do not hesitate to say.

When I think of someone like Henry Ford, I think of a creator. (The car)

When I think of how he provided sustenance for his "flock" in the form of wages, I think of our Heavenly Father.

When I think of the Almighty leaving His heavenly kingdom, to which he returned, I think of the Big Boss visiting his factory under another name, meeting his people, and then returning to his big, posh office, somewhere miles away.

Creator, Saviour and Heavenly Father. One God. (Never mind three persons. Henry Ford was one man, and Jesus is One God.

God bless.
 
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I have been thinking lately and I was thinking about the Holly Spirit, since someone somewhere on one of the forums mentioned it in regards to the Trinity. So, I wan to post the following:
Romans 8:26:27
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Ok, so if the Holly Spirit prays for us according to Gods will, than that somehow means that Holly Spirit is best word I can think of( I am pretty sure someone somewhere said it) is a Person, yet One with God. So, Jesus Christ is also One with God, yet He is a Person.

So, I have come to believe in Trinity again.

Thanks
 
Aug 15, 2020
13
12
3
76
Sheffield UK
I have been thinking lately and I was thinking about the Holly Spirit, since someone somewhere on one of the forums mentioned it in regards to the Trinity. So, I wan to post the following:
Romans 8:26:27
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Ok, so if the Holly Spirit prays for us according to Gods will, than that somehow means that Holly Spirit is best word I can think of( I am pretty sure someone somewhere said it) is a Person, yet One with God. So, Jesus Christ is also One with God, yet He is a Person.

So, I have come to believe in Trinity again.

Thanks
Praise God for your testimony.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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5,113
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Florida
I have been thinking lately and I was thinking about the Holly Spirit, since someone somewhere on one of the forums mentioned it in regards to the Trinity. So, I wan to post the following:
Romans 8:26:27
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Ok, so if the Holly Spirit prays for us according to Gods will, than that somehow means that Holly Spirit is best word I can think of( I am pretty sure someone somewhere said it) is a Person, yet One with God. So, Jesus Christ is also One with God, yet He is a Person.

So, I have come to believe in Trinity again.

Thanks

Excellent!

I would encourage you to remember that there is a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third.

The Father is not begotten, but the Son is. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father sent the Son. The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit . The Father creates, the Son redeems and the Holy Spirit sanctifies.

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son, but this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband; but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality.
 
Jan 3, 2015
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Excellent!

I would encourage you to remember that there is a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third.

The Father is not begotten, but the Son is. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father sent the Son. The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit . The Father creates, the Son redeems and the Holy Spirit sanctifies.

This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son, but this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband; but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality.

Hello Major
I respect your position as a minister and scholar, but I would like to call you on your stand on trinitarianism.
Where in the scripture does it talk about a trinity. I can show you where it declares that there is only one God.
We should leave it at that for our small minds cannot understand God.
St John 1 it says 'in the beginning ' so let me ask you when does 'eternal' have a beginning. Could it then be that God manifested Himself in another form 'namely creation' as the Word. If that is so then we are off the Word to call that another person.
 

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Aug 15, 2020
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Hello Major
I respect your position as a minister and scholar, but I would like to call you on your stand on trinitarianism.
Where in the scripture does it talk about a trinity. I can show you where it declares that there is only one God.
We should leave it at that for our small minds cannot understand God.
St John 1 it says 'in the beginning ' so let me ask you when does 'eternal' have a beginning. Could it then be that God manifested Himself in another form 'namely creation' as the Word. If that is so then we are off the Word to call that another person.
The Bible tells us there is One God, Mar:12:32; Rom:3:30; 1Cor:8:6; Eph:4:6; 1Ti:2:5; Jas:2:19 who is manifest in three persons,

We call the One eternal God our Heavenly Father, he is Spirit. The One God made himself known to us in the flesh. He is the Alpha and Omega, the one eternal God.
"God is one."
 
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Hello Major
I respect your position as a minister and scholar, but I would like to call you on your stand on trinitarianism.
Where in the scripture does it talk about a trinity. I can show you where it declares that there is only one God.
We should leave it at that for our small minds cannot understand God.
St John 1 it says 'in the beginning ' so let me ask you when does 'eternal' have a beginning. Could it then be that God manifested Himself in another form 'namely creation' as the Word. If that is so then we are off the Word to call that another person.

I certainly accept your thinking and I in no way am forcing what I believe the Bible teaches onto you. Please understand that I am not a scholar. I am just am old fashioned country boy from U.A.

In fact I have been very clear in saying that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. And YES, there are many Scriptures which say that there IS ONLY ONE GOD.

When we as Christians speak of God, we are talking about the Supreme Being. God is ultimate and eternal. God is, as a Christian thinker named Anselm of Canterbury put it, "that than which no greater can be conceived." There cannot be two Supreme Beings for the obvious reason that neither of them would be supreme. There cannot be several ultimate realities because none of them would be ultimate. It is impossible for there to be multiple "greatest conceivable beings," both because "greatest" must mean greater than all others, but also because I can conceive of a being that is great beyond any possible rivals. If there are many of something, I can easily conceive of something greater than that.

The real question then must be.....How is the one true God manifested in the Bible????

The historical evidence for Jesus's bodily resurrection from the dead and for His miracles also offer a compelling case that the God of the Bible is, indeed, the one true God. The God of the Bible is not just one culture's version of every other god. The great I AM of Holy Scripture is the unique Creator, Governor, Provider, and Redeemer to whom all men of every nation must come, and on His terms, not on our own. While this might be "narrow" and "exclusive," it is true and is, in fact, quite good news! God has made Himself known to His creation and provided a way for us to come into true fellowship with Him! Not only is there one true and living God to believe in, but you can also know and commune with that God!
(https://carm.org/why-should-i-only-believe-in-one-god).

IF, you do not accept that the God of Creation is actually a God of 3 person, co-equal, co-eternal and co-existance....you are free to do so as I do not and will not and have not ever forced my understandings onto anyone.

Now you asked, "where in the scripture does it talk about a Trinity"?

In post #47 I stated from the Scriptures...........
Then we would need to reevaluate John 1:1-2........
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ****The same was in the beginning with God****. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "

According to that Scripture there was never a time when The Son was not with the Father, co - equal and co - eternal!

That is why Jesus could say.....'"If You have seen Me, you have seen the Father".


Now consider Matthew 28:19 where God speaks to His eleven with the Great Commission......
" Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

Isn't the implication there that God exists in 3 person? That is called "IMPLIED TRUTH'" as it is taught in Christian Seminaries.

Consider now 1 Peter 1:2...........
" Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1) through sanctification of the Spirit, (2) unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: (3) Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. "

Again we see the 3 Persons of the God head.

Genesis 1:26............
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

What is the implication there???/ US....OUR image, OUR likeness.

One of the most popular ways of viewing this verse is that we have communication within the members of the Trinity. Though not explicitly stated in this verse, the implicit nature of the Trinity is evident.

Elohim Plural

The Hebrew noun Elohim, used throughout chapter one, is plural in form, but it takes a singular verb. This speaks of plurality of persons within the nature of the one God. The pronoun Us also suggests in itself a plurality of persons.

Then you asked this..............
"St John 1 it says 'in the beginning ' so let me ask you when does 'eternal' have a beginning. Could it then be that God manifested Himself in another form 'namely creation' as the Word. If that is so then we are off the Word to call that another person."

In other words you are asking the "Philosophic" question of......."Does eternity have a beginning"????

Instead of a Philphosic answer, lets use the Bible which tells us in Genesis 1:1..........
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

So who did that" WHo Created the universe.
Colossians 1:16-17..........
"For by Him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "

Again, John 1:1-2 answers your question if God manifested Himself in another form, "namely Creation". Then you added...."IF THAT IS SO".

However, that is NOT THE CASE AT ALL. Your premise is based on an opinion. Actually what you just did was to add to the Word of God what YOU wanted it to say but it in fact actually and literally says.......
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

In those Scriptures Jesus is said to be identical to God. Here, Scripture makes the interesting point that nothing created was created apart from Jesus. This is important for several reasons.

#1. It proves that Jesus is not an angel, a man, or some other formed being.
#2. It implies a difference between things which begin to exist, and the One who always existed. In other words, there is one thing that did not "begin to exist," which did not "come into being." This one—and only—thing is God. The fancier term for this idea is the "Cosmological Argument," or the argument from a "first cause." This is an important purpose of the first 18 verses of John: countering all other concepts of what God is, or is not.

Then Philosophically, It should be understood that every effect must resemble its cause. This is because, simply put, you cannot give what you do not have, so it is impossible for an effect to possess something its originating cause did not have. That being the case, how can one believe that an impersonal, amoral, purposeless, and meaningless universe accidentally created beings that are full of personality, morals, meaning, and purpose? Only mind can create mind. In the end it is either matter before mind or mind before matter, and all scientific, philosophical, and reasonable evidence points to the latter.

So what do we know from the Scriptures and the Philosophic mind.........we find that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible states, and that a Cause must exist that resembles all we know today.

(https://www.gotquestions.org/universe-eternal.html)
As Lord Kelvin, a British scientist once said, "If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God."

Very nice to talk with you my friend.
 
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I certainly accept your thinking and I in no way am forcing what I believe the Bible teaches onto you. Please understand that I am not a scholar. I am just am old fashioned country boy from U.A.

In fact I have been very clear in saying that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. And YES, there are many Scriptures which say that there IS ONLY ONE GOD.

When we as Christians speak of God, we are talking about the Supreme Being. God is ultimate and eternal. God is, as a Christian thinker named Anselm of Canterbury put it, "that than which no greater can be conceived." There cannot be two Supreme Beings for the obvious reason that neither of them would be supreme. There cannot be several ultimate realities because none of them would be ultimate. It is impossible for there to be multiple "greatest conceivable beings," both because "greatest" must mean greater than all others, but also because I can conceive of a being that is great beyond any possible rivals. If there are many of something, I can easily conceive of something greater than that.

The real question then must be.....How is the one true God manifested in the Bible????

The historical evidence for Jesus's bodily resurrection from the dead and for His miracles also offer a compelling case that the God of the Bible is, indeed, the one true God. The God of the Bible is not just one culture's version of every other god. The great I AM of Holy Scripture is the unique Creator, Governor, Provider, and Redeemer to whom all men of every nation must come, and on His terms, not on our own. While this might be "narrow" and "exclusive," it is true and is, in fact, quite good news! God has made Himself known to His creation and provided a way for us to come into true fellowship with Him! Not only is there one true and living God to believe in, but you can also know and commune with that God!
(https://carm.org/why-should-i-only-believe-in-one-god).

IF, you do not accept that the God of Creation is actually a God of 3 person, co-equal, co-eternal and co-existance....you are free to do so as I do not and will not and have not ever forced my understandings onto anyone.

Now you asked, "where in the scripture does it talk about a Trinity"?

In post #47 I stated from the Scriptures...........
Then we would need to reevaluate John 1:1-2........
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ****The same was in the beginning with God****. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "

According to that Scripture there was never a time when The Son was not with the Father, co - equal and co - eternal!

That is why Jesus could say.....'"If You have seen Me, you have seen the Father".


Now consider Matthew 28:19 where God speaks to His eleven with the Great Commission......
" Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

Isn't the implication there that God exists in 3 person? That is called "IMPLIED TRUTH'" as it is taught in Christian Seminaries.

Consider now 1 Peter 1:2...........
" Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1) through sanctification of the Spirit, (2) unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: (3) Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. "

Again we see the 3 Persons of the God head.

Genesis 1:26............
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

What is the implication there???/ US....OUR image, OUR likeness.

One of the most popular ways of viewing this verse is that we have communication within the members of the Trinity. Though not explicitly stated in this verse, the implicit nature of the Trinity is evident.

Elohim Plural

The Hebrew noun Elohim, used throughout chapter one, is plural in form, but it takes a singular verb. This speaks of plurality of persons within the nature of the one God. The pronoun Us also suggests in itself a plurality of persons.

Then you asked this..............
"St John 1 it says 'in the beginning ' so let me ask you when does 'eternal' have a beginning. Could it then be that God manifested Himself in another form 'namely creation' as the Word. If that is so then we are off the Word to call that another person."

In other words you are asking the "Philosophic" question of......."Does eternity have a beginning"????

Instead of a Philphosic answer, lets use the Bible which tells us in Genesis 1:1..........
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

So who did that" WHo Created the universe.
Colossians 1:16-17..........
"For by Him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "

Again, John 1:1-2 answers your question if God manifested Himself in another form, "namely Creation". Then you added...."IF THAT IS SO".

However, that is NOT THE CASE AT ALL. Your premise is based on an opinion. Actually what you just did was to add to the Word of God what YOU wanted it to say but it in fact actually and literally says.......
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

In those Scriptures Jesus is said to be identical to God. Here, Scripture makes the interesting point that nothing created was created apart from Jesus. This is important for several reasons.

#1. It proves that Jesus is not an angel, a man, or some other formed being.
#2. It implies a difference between things which begin to exist, and the One who always existed. In other words, there is one thing that did not "begin to exist," which did not "come into being." This one—and only—thing is God. The fancier term for this idea is the "Cosmological Argument," or the argument from a "first cause." This is an important purpose of the first 18 verses of John: countering all other concepts of what God is, or is not.

Then Philosophically, It should be understood that every effect must resemble its cause. This is because, simply put, you cannot give what you do not have, so it is impossible for an effect to possess something its originating cause did not have. That being the case, how can one believe that an impersonal, amoral, purposeless, and meaningless universe accidentally created beings that are full of personality, morals, meaning, and purpose? Only mind can create mind. In the end it is either matter before mind or mind before matter, and all scientific, philosophical, and reasonable evidence points to the latter.

So what do we know from the Scriptures and the Philosophic mind.........we find that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible states, and that a Cause must exist that resembles all we know today.

(https://www.gotquestions.org/universe-eternal.html)
As Lord Kelvin, a British scientist once said, "If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God."

Very nice to talk with you my friend.

Thank you Major
I appreciate your reply.
I trust our differences will be stepping stones to our growth.
God bless you my friend.
 
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Thank you Major
I appreciate your reply.
I trust our differences will be stepping stones to our growth.
God bless you my friend.

Absolutely my brother. I am available to you if you have any questions on this or any other Bible doctrine.

Discussions on complex doctrines such as the Trinity usually come down two or a few people trying to drive their point of view to each other, without any possibility of the discussion changing each other. I have learned over the years that this might seem to be a wasted exercise in futility for each person, but then we must realize that this discussion, or more properly debate, is being observed by hundreds, if not thousands, of others, who may be heavily influenced by the thoughts expressed by our conversation. In this sense, then, the debate is far from futile, offering the opportunity to present arguments to this great cloud of judges, or jury, or witnesses.

It is usually to "them" that I focus my comments to.

I would say that when it comes right down to it, one of the most essential doctrines of the Christian faith is that Jesus is the God-Man. This has been clearly expressed throughout the New Testament. If we miss that then we will miss everything else that God wants to tell us.

I would say this to all who are reading it that we must understand that I do not believe it is necessary to confess the Trinitarian nature of God in order to believe the gospel in faith. We can be saved without a clear concept of the trinity. We are saved when we believe upon the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. THAT is the gospel. However, as we read the Word of God and study and listen to our pastor we learn that it is much deeper than just that.

We ultimately should come to the realization that If the basic considerations of the Trinity were not true, then our redemption would not be possible, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ would be a lie.

The gospel writer and Apostle Mark clearly presented the passages that demonstrate the personhood of each member of the Holy Trinity, and the clear statements that God is one. In this definition then Jesus must be God. It is also clearly presented that Jesus was in every way a man, born of a human woman. Both of these facts are necessary for our redemption.

So then, Simply stated, if Jesus were not a man, then He could not have represented us on the cross. As a MAN He paid for the sins of MAN.
What does that mean then?????

It simply and logically means that If He were a created being, His death would have had no more power to salvation that the death of any other created being. He must be God in order to provide the release from the curse of the law, and to provide us the hope of our salvation. This gives us a new life both in eternity, and in the present time.

May the blessing given in Numbers 6:24-28........ Numbers 6:24-26 fall on all who read this – “The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.”
 
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Hi. Like I said in the prayer request section, I haven’t been Baptised yet. So I suppose I have to work out whether I understand the New Testament teachings to teach a Trinitarian or non Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrine.
The new and old testaments teach a trinitarian doctrine. The Gospel of John teaches about the trinity. The old testament talks about God Elohim, and Yahweh as God the father. The son is the messiah, and is known as God to the holy spirit and the father. Jews believe that the messiah will be a human. That is impossible and have been debating with rabbis about it. They do not answer my questions. The messiah takes away sins of the God and reigns supreme on the earth for 100 years. This is all old testament. The holy spirit, didnt seem to personally speak to people but he was and is in the works of the Son and the Father throughout scripture. The Holy spirit is mysterious and the least understandable in scripture because he works in the background.
 
Aug 15, 2020
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The new and old testaments teach a trinitarian doctrine. The Gospel of John teaches about the trinity. The old testament talks about God Elohim, and Yahweh as God the father. The son is the messiah, and is known as God to the holy spirit and the father. Jews believe that the messiah will be a human. That is impossible and have been debating with rabbis about it. They do not answer my questions. The messiah takes away sins of the God and reigns supreme on the earth for 100 years. This is all old testament. The holy spirit, didnt seem to personally speak to people but he was and is in the works of the Son and the Father throughout scripture. The Holy spirit is mysterious and the least understandable in scripture because he works in the background.

I have just remembered John 14:7 which I have known all of my adult life, but it has only just resurfaced, and it is where Jesus says:- If you had known me, you would have known the Father. But from now on, you do know him, and you have seen him."

Praise God.
 
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The new and old testaments teach a trinitarian doctrine. The Gospel of John teaches about the trinity. The old testament talks about God Elohim, and Yahweh as God the father. The son is the messiah, and is known as God to the holy spirit and the father. Jews believe that the messiah will be a human. That is impossible and have been debating with rabbis about it. They do not answer my questions. The messiah takes away sins of the God and reigns supreme on the earth for 100 years. This is all old testament. The holy spirit, didnt seem to personally speak to people but he was and is in the works of the Son and the Father throughout scripture. The Holy spirit is mysterious and the least understandable in scripture because he works in the background.

Yes......the Trinity is a Bible Doctrine from Genesis to the Revelation.

It may be helpful for you to know that the Holy Spirit worked in two differing ways. One way in the Old Test and another way in the New Test.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon certain people to empower them for service, but then He would leave again.

New Testament believers have a different experience, as the Spirit indwells us permanently after we have accepted Christ. The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit given to New Testament believers was a “mystery” to the Old Testament saints. After Jesus ascended to heaven, He sent the Holy Spirit to live within us, never to leave.

Jesus told His disciples in John 14:20......
“On that day you will realize that I am in my Father . . . and I am in you”.
 
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