Immaculate Conception

[Leo_ACH]

This is why context is important. I was uncomfortable with this title of Mary being the Queen of Heaven because it seemed to give her equal credit to God, which I think you'd agree with me is absolutely blasphemous.

However, when you step back and understand what it used to mean in ancient times, that it was an honor as the mother of a king, you realize it doesn't mean she has this sort of equal reverence, but that she is highly respected as being the woman who carried the fruit--that fruit being the king.

So if someone is upset about Mary being called the Queen of Mary because they are thinking of a position like the Queen of England rather than the meaning it had as a queen mother, then that's something they need to work out themselves and look further into.

Don't take this statement as me trying to change your mind (I anticipate rebuttal of interpretation), but this term came from the early Church in reference not just to David and his mother, but also the woman in Revelation 12, as the early Christians all understood to be Mary.

But we also see the link in 1 Kings 2 in regards to Solomon and his mother being the queen and how she intercedes for the people. But the NT link to that is at the wedding of Cana where Mary intercedes instructing the servants to do what her Son says. This passage is very important to Catholics because it is a Gospel illustration of Mary's role -- not directing people to her, but that she directs us to God.

Again, I suspect you disagree that it was Mary, all I'm doing is explaining the background for this concept of Mary being the Queen Mother. You are totally free to reject it.

Lol...I dont think that you and the Popes are in same pages...

proclaimed ex-Cathedra 'from the seat' (infallibly) that Mary's body was raised from the grave shortly after she died, and she was taken up and enthroned as 'Queen of Heaven.' At St. Peter Square on Easter Day 1988....

Its a statement of INFALLIBLY.....ex-Cathedra.....It can ONLY be interpred as LITERALY....as they were speaking inspire by the Holy Sprit...as if they have a revelation....a vision from God of this account...

Its understanble brother/sister your argument, but here the word "ENTHRONED AS" make all the diference... as I mention its not a written dogma but is a stamente of INFALLIBLY...which is same thing and you know that....Lol

We love Mary...but not a Queen of any short, but as a faithfull sister in Christ, not elevated as superior, not venerated, no services dedicated to her, not prayers direct to her, she is not ominipotent and can not hear or respond or interceed for no body its a simple impossibility she is just human not holier then us....a sinner as any of us....

And you wont find a sigle line in the bible that will support any of these ideias....so moving on as you like to say....lol I prefer to follow Paul's advice to Timothy...

2 Timothy 2.:14-18...I am stunt of the last verse of the passage...its exactly what the pope did....said that Mary ressurrected and went to haven....God bless you..

14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened.


So, with all respect...here is the unpassing truth....love!

 

[calvin]

But we also see the link in 1 Kings 2 in regards to Solomon and his mother being the queen and how she intercedes for the people. But the NT link to that is at the wedding of Cana where Mary intercedes instructing the servants to do what her Son says. This passage is very important to Catholics because it is a Gospel illustration of Mary's role -- not directing people to her, but that she directs us to God.

Again, I suspect you disagree that it was Mary, all I'm doing is explaining the background for this concept of Mary being the Queen Mother. You are totally free to reject it.

Well I don't think she was Beyonce.
Joh 2:3. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."

So if I disagree that she was Mary, who do you suppose I'd think she was?
Sad to say, your conversation grows sillier by the minute.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Lol...I dont think that you and the Popes are in same pages...

proclaimed ex-Cathedra 'from the seat' (infallibly) that Mary's body was raised from the grave shortly after she died, and she was taken up and enthroned as 'Queen of Heaven.' At St. Peter Square on Easter Day 1988....

You're referring to the Assumption of Mary. This was in 1950 that this pronounced dogmatic. This has happened two times in all of the 2000 years history. But not in regards to Mary being the queen mother -- that dates back to the early Church.

Its a statement of INFALLIBLY.....ex-Cathedra.....It can ONLY be interpred as LITERALY....as they were speaking inspire by the Holy Sprit...as if they have a revelation....a vision from God of this account...

Indeed.

Its understanble brother/sister your argument, but here the word "ENTHRONED AS" make all the diference... as I mention its not a written dogma but is a stamente of INFALLIBLY...which is same thing and you know that....Lol

The case of Mary being enthroned as queen mother predates the official statement of the assumption of Mary. I believe Clement of Alexandria wrote extensively about Mary being the queen mother. This was back in the 2nd century -- he was a student of Paul the Apostle.

We love Mary...but not a Queen of any short, but as a faithfull sister in Christ, not elevated as superior, not venerated, no services dedicated to her, not prayers direct to her, she is not ominipotent and can not hear or respond or interceed for no body its a simple impossibility she is just human not holier then us....a sinner as any of us....

Mary is indeed a sister in Christ, though she is also a mother as she is the mother of our Lord. We should honor her, just as we are commanded to honor our parents, because as we are a family with Christ, we honor her just as Jesus honored His mother. I don't know why she couldn't hear us as God is a God of the living, not the dead. In Heaven, we receive eternal life with God, and the with Him are more part of the body of Christ because we are in full communion in heaven. I'm not suggesting she is omnipotent, but if you're referring to time, do you believe the same limitations of time exist in heaven? If so, why?

And you wont find a sigle line in the bible that will support any of these ideias....so moving on as you like to say....lol I prefer to follow Paul's advice to Timothy...

2 Timothy 2.:14-18...I am stunt of the last verse of the passage...its exactly what the pope did....said that Mary ressurrected and went to haven....God bless you..

14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened.


So, with all respect...here is the unpassing truth....love!

I appreciate the response. I have to disagree. To begin, you will find many passages in the Bible that support these ideologies. Consider the Hail Mary prayer:

Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God (Luke 1:43)
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death (1 Timothy 2:1)
Amen

I love the passages you provided, Leo -- and as a Christian, naturally I agree with them. However, I don't agree with your fallible interpretation. If you're suggesting that this passage is saying that there will be no other assumption into heaven, then should we reject the passage of Elijah's assumption into heaven?

But also, you may be misunderstanding Mary's assumption for a resurrection.

edit:
Also keep in mind that to honor doesn't instantly mean to worship. We honor our parents and our spouses, but we don't worship them. We honor Mary, but we don't worship her. We honor God, AND we worship Him.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Well I don't think she was Beyonce.
Joh 2:3. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."

So if I disagree that she was Mary, who do you suppose I'd think she was?
Sad to say, your conversation grows sillier by the minute.

What? Disagree that who was Mary?

edit:
Oh, I see. I think I typed faster than I was thinking. What I meant to say was that I suspect you disagree with this passage regarding Mary. Of course it was Mary. That was my point actually -- that the wedding at Cana is an important passage in regards to Mary's role in Christian life, that she always points us to her Son, Jesus.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I want to highlight again (this might be for 5th time doing this) that by no means am I trying to persuade anyone into accepting this as your own dogma. All I am doing is clearing up what Catholics are taught in regards to Christian teaching. If I am told that Catholics teach the idea of worshiping Mary, I will respond and explain why that is not true. I will then instead explain that Catholics honor Mary the way that Jesus honored her. However, I am not responding in trying to tell YOU to honor Mary. What you choose to do is up to you. All I can do is offer clarification on what seems to be many misconceptions -- the same ones I held before I was a Catholic, so I really do understand where you are all coming from on this.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

What? Disagree that who was Mary?

edit:
Oh, I see. I think I typed faster than I was thinking. What I meant to say was that I suspect you disagree with this passage regarding Mary. Of course it was Mary. That was my point actually -- that the wedding at Cana is an important passage in regards to Mary's role in Christian life, that she always points us to her Son, Jesus.

Once again, I wrote faster than I was thinking. Calvin, I know you agree with the passage. You and I probably read this passage differently and hold a different perspective to it.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

What I'm suggesting friend, is you prayerfully study what Jesus is saying to the church of Thyatira first, rather than extra-Biblical works, extra-Biblical works are fine if they agree with the Word, but they are never inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Here is the time line for the seven churches,

Ephese - Pentecost - 100AD
Symrna - 101AD - 312AD
Pergamos - 313AD - 600AD (+-)
Thyatira Catholic) - 600Ad (+-) - today
Sardis (Protestant) - 1400AD (+-) - today
Philadelphia (Missionary) 1750AD (+-) - today
Laodicean (Apostate) - Pentecost - today

So ask yourself, what church in history has a woman in it?

With all due respect, you've just made multiple presuppositions rather than a sincere review. You've presupposed that I'm not even attempting to follow what Christ as said. I even acknowledge that you that is your full intention. Our difference isn't that you follow Jesus and I don't or vice-versa. The difference is that we hold two different interpretations, and one us is right and the other is wrong, but our intention is to entirely devote ourselves to Christ.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me--I certainly disagree with you--but what good is this if you aren't taking this seriously? Smearing won't do either of us any good.

Also friend, do you understand what I said about rewards and faith, have you been taught it in your church, if not, why not, ...I'm in a missionary church and we have been taught extensively about them and continue to teach and encourage the church to seek after.

I was hoping to go back and read what you wrote about rewards and faith, but I think it was removed or deleted. What did you write about that? I'd love to read it.

The Lord spoke to us in Hab 2:4, the just shall live by faith, it is such an important subject that He wrote three commentaries on this six word verse, Romans explains justice, Galatians explains how we are to live and Hebrews explains what faith is.

Ask yourself, do you live your Christian walk in faith as explained in these three books?

Wonderful question. The answer is a resounding yes. It is by God's grace that has given me a desire to walk by faith. Going further, it is His grace that has lead me to have better understanding of faith, hope, and love. My hope is to have an ever-growing faith, but that it will especially translate to an even greater love for God.

I won't argue, but I am trying to show you the Light, if you are not born again to become born again, if you are a dear brother to help you to have all of the rewards promised to us by our Lord and to have enough faith to go to the edge of the universe with me and watch our Jesus create new worlds (the universe is ever expanding today and when He creates a new universe so will it be then, whoa, what a rush to watch that!).

I have to go to work, talk to you later.

In His Love,

Gene

I'm always happy to proclaim my being born again God bless you for making the same proclamation and looking out for your fellow-man. I suspect you are born again--like I am--which is why I can tell you are sincere about evangelizing. Always continue to evangelize, to defend the faith, and to experience the Scriptures, not just read it. My hope is that I will continue to be more evangelical as God grants me His peace.

 

[Big Moose]

I'd also be interested in knowing why the oral and written traditions which were so integral at one time were discarded by some and retained by others, like who dictated this and why.

Just as Jesus knew the OT scriptures and made challenges to the authority of the Pharisees, and called them out on their traditions, so too have those Christians who learned and knew the Old and New Testament scriptures made, and make, challenges to the authority of the popes and bishops and any other equivalent clergy of Protestant churches, and called them out on their extra-biblical traditions.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

Just as Jesus knew the OT scriptures and made challenges to the authority of the Pharisees, and called them out on their traditions, so too have those Christians who learned and knew the Old and New Testament scriptures made, and make, challenges to the authority of the popes and bishops and any other equivalent clergy of Protestant churches, and called them out on their extra-biblical traditions.

And making challenges to them is just fine. But flat out declaring them wrong and obliterating all their teachings is a little bit heavy-handed.

 

[aha]

Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)

That is the Premise of the topic.... I wonder it was not much discussed, mentioned one time, a comment, then it was gone....

FULL of GRACE, wow, I honestly cannot imagine that....

Rather than the premise/ theological argument offered initially...

 

[LysanderShapiro]

That is the Premise of the topic.... I wonder it was not much discussed, mentioned one time, a comment, then it was gone....

FULL of GRACE, wow, I honestly cannot imagine that....

Rather than the premise/ theological argument offered initially...

Indeed -- it's difficult to imagine being in Mary's shoes when Gabriel spoke to her and gave her the news.

 

[aha]

I wonder why the post of Justpassingthru was gone as well….

As I understand it, the church in Thyatira refers to the Catholic Church.... that is: ONE of the churches...

Because I happen to likely to agree….in… the….. symbolisms…..

How a Church so known for works, and charity, and service, and faith, and patience, and works; and the last to be more than the first…. have in them those that eat things sacrificed unto idols and have known depths of Satan, as they speak….

I love Logic, and I met it having studied in a school named after of the greatest defender of the Faith.. defend what to whom?

Logic is carnal… he used carnal to defend the faith to the carnally minded….

To grow in Faith, one needs to grow in faith.

IMO

1 Corinthians 2:1-5New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ Crucified
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[b] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I wonder why the post of Justpassingthru was gone as well….

As I understand it, the church in Thyatira refers to the Catholic Church.... that is: ONE of the churches...

Because I happen to likely to agree….in… the….. symbolisms…..

How a Church so known for works, and charity, and service, and faith, and patience, and works; and the last to be more than the first…. have in them those that eat things sacrificed unto idols and have known depths of Satan, as they speak….

I love Logic, and I met it having studied in a school named after of the greatest defender of the Faith.. defend what to whom?

Logic is carnal… he used carnal to defend the faith to the carnally minded….

To grow in Faith, one needs to grow in faith.

IMO

1 Corinthians 2:1-5New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ Crucified
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[b] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

I'd love to weigh in on what you said...hahaha, but I am so simple-minded, I'm trying to understand it. Could you rephrase it so that I can better understand?

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

How a Church so known for works, and charity, and service, and faith, and patience, and works; and the last to be more than the first…. have in them those that eat things sacrificed unto idols and have known depths of Satan, as they speak….

Those are very strong and harsh words, and you are aware there are Catholics on this forum, correct?
Can you explain yourself here? What idolatry? What Satanism?

 

[aha]

What I mean above is: I am "carnalizing" “Logic” rather than “demonizing” it… and I equate the lady Jezebel to worldly wisdom…

 

[aha]

What Satanism?

take it easy, it does not mean Satanism, it means worldly... as I see it...

It is recognized CHRISTIAN church, how will that be consistent if you see that as that...

Again, ONE of the SEVEN churches, wow.
and a house divided against itself will fall, your logic/conclusion on what I post is flawed..

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Those are very strong and harsh words, and you are aware there are Catholics on this forum, correct?
Can you explain yourself here? What idolatry? What Satanism?

It's OK, River. I didn't take offense to aha. I don't think he meant any harm.

 

[aha]

your question scared me a bit peacelikeariver : )

Am posting the verses, and make red one line to refute your conclusion on what am saying...


Revelation 2:18-29New King James Version (NKJV)
The Corrupt Church
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith,[a] and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[b] that woman[c] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[d] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[e] 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[f] deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
24 “Now to you I say, and[g] to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will[h] put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[i]—
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

All right, I am still unclear.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

your question scared me a bit peacelikeariver : )

Am posting the verses, and make red one line to refute your conclusion on what am saying...


Revelation 2:18-29New King James Version (NKJV)
The Corrupt Church
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith,[a] and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[b] that woman[c] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[d] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[e] 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[f] deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
24 “Now to you I say, and[g] to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will[h] put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[i]—
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

I think I understand what you're trying to suggest now. Are you suggesting that Thyatira is in fact the Catholic Church?