Irresistible Grace & People "falling Away" From Christianity. How Does This Happen?

[LysanderShapiro]

What? These are huge jumps in biblical logic ! According to the scriptures we are all slaves of sin, and of course we are very much forced to surrender to God by the truth of the results of our sin, which is death. No man at no time can claim free-will except Adam before the fall and Christ who had no sin. This idea of having free-will is a product and deception of the flesh and a rejection of the truth that we are all wretched and cannot please God because of the power of sin that dwells in us. Of course the sin in us lies to us about our own "free-will" and tells us we have some choice, therefore we are not really slaves to sin, its a lie.

I'm only asking out of curiosity, Mitspa -- do you consider yourself as a Calvinist?

 

[TezriLi]

We choose to be slaves. We choose to remain as slaves. Salvation is God's doing but getting onto the plane to heaven / into Abraham's bosom is all ours.

King, on a simple logical level, choosing to be a slave makes no sense. The only reason you would choose to be a slave even to the L-rd of heaven, is if He chose you, wooed you, brought you to Himself by His love, which He freely gave you, with His gift of faith, as the Bible says and as has been referenced here repeatedly.

. . . Your free choice analogy confuses you and Mitspa and you seem to have missed me saying that then...

Think about it. Then Arminians, too, are confused. Words I brought up were changed to other words, in order to make a point that was not valid to what I was writing. I let that go then. Scriptures I brought up were decided not to be relevant, because there was no legitimate answer from the Arminian side. I let that go, too. If I were a more persistent debater, I would have insisted on answers to both of these. My thought was, "I am not the H Spirit, to try to convict others. Just let it go and leave it up to Him."

What about free will in slavery is hard to grasp? I can decide today to NOT be a slave unto God. Heb 10:29 makes that crystal clear.

You are a very powerful being, King, to be able to overcome G-d's will. I read your reference, but I read it in context. Read above this reference, the Scripture is to believers. Read below this reference, it says, "The Lord will judge his people." HIS people. Arminians think that the Scripture is about people who lose their salvation. Reformed persons understand that this is about those who live carelessly, who do not respect either their G-d or their profession. They, too, are judged.

. . . Those OT hardly experienced His love or knew of the cross. There were men who hated evil and loved what was good. . . .

It always amazes me when I read statements like this. People assume that the early believers (who were not just men) were so ignorant, had so little understanding, didn't understand the Cross, had no idea what they were doing, or why, when they sacrificed. They see David as an anomaly, Isaiah as an unread prophet who had not explained everything clearly, Moses as unheard. I tell you: they understood more than most of us who live in the modern world -- those of us:
who buy our washed, drained meat in neat little packages from the refrigerated area of the grocery store
who never personally brought up the beasts for sacrifice
who never placed our hands upon them as they were slain
who never watched them being sacrificed
who never watched the priests take their part
who never took our part home to the family
and never ate the sacrifice.

To assume that these people were ignorant of Messiah is to attempt to lift ourselves above them by stepping upon the corpses of those called faithful in Hebrews and those who believed as they did.

 

[HisManySongs]

Now that there's a large, circular rut firmly in place, does anyone have anything different to add.

Seeing no hands, I declare this thread in recess. (not adjourn as this subject will reappear in the not so distant future)