Irresistible Grace & People "falling Away" From Christianity. How Does This Happen?

[Where is the Messiah]

Does it mean God predestined some people to die unsaved?

Yes.

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

 

[TezriLi]

Yes.

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

One obvious example: the pharaoh who dealt with the exodus

 

[Where is the Messiah]

Calling one's self Christian does not make it so.
Nobody is "pre-destined" to go anywhere, people go to Heaven because they accepted God's grace and obeyed His will to the best of their ability, people go to Hell because they follow their own desires.
No, they can't be plucked out of His hand, but they can jump out of their own free will.

Yes, people are pre-destined. We have free will, but man is born with a sinful nature. With a sinful nature, though man has free-will, he cannot choose to do anything but sin against God. It is not until God gives the gift of mercy, and they become reborn will they begin to choose not to sin. Therefore if man can't be born again without God, it makes perfect sense that a person is predestined to destruction or mercy.

Charles Spurgeon stated the following…

Imagine that there is a pig and I am standing about 100 ft away from a pig. To one side of me is a beautiful 7 course dinner and to the other side of me is a large bucket of slop.

The pig is released, which side is he going to run to?

To the slop side of course!

Why?

Because he is a pig and that is all that pigs know.

Now imagine if you will that we were able to change that pig into a man, all the while he is eating the slop. What will happen?

The odds are that he will lift up his head and look around at his environment and then spit out the slop he was feeding upon when he was a pig.

Why?

Because he is no longer a pig that is able to feed upon slop, but a man needing a form of food to give him nutrition so that he might live.

This man is now a new creature and is no longer a pig.

Now from time to time he may even have pig thoughts about the wonderful slop he once ate when he was a pig. He may even go to the slop bucket from time to time, smell it, look at it. But the moment he feeds upon it what will happen? He will spit it out because he is no longer a pig but a man. Even if he as a man he forces himself to eat the slop, which men are able to do, it will eventually cause him to vomit it all up and make him sick possibly unto death because his body no longer accepts slop because he is a new creature.Now if one thinks he is a man and can still stomach the slop day in and day out, what makes him think he was changed into a new creature in the first place? If he is feeding upon the slop of the world and does not get sick to his stomach, maybe he was never changed into new creature in the first place and to this day remains a pig.

 

[HisManySongs]

That doesn't make sense. If God foreknew my life before the womb, as scripture tells us, then I can not do anything but follow his divine will and plan that was predestined for me.

You chose the path. It is not predestined. You have free will. Which BTW includes giving all control to God.

Just because God knows the path doesn't mean He chose it.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

A parent knows when their kid is going off the deep end and knows the outcome. The parent can try to explain to the child what'll happen, but the child does it anyway. This is what God does. Plain and simple. Read my first post on this subject above. The child cannot comprehend beyond the level of thinking they're capable of. When they (or we) choose to do something one way or another, God is aware of it because He knows all things. If we choose not to obey and something goes wrong, is God to blame? Was it's God's desire? Were we predestinated? Not at all. Read the definition and understand, repeant of that wrong thinking.

How can you say "He knows all things," but then believe that it's not his desire for the outcome of some of his objects. Did He really know all things then?

This would be like an automative engineer claiming he knows everything about cars, but then 90% of the cars he builds don't work. Did he really know everything about cars?

 

[porcupine73]

I remember hearing one teacher commenting on Nicodemus' discussion with Jesus ask 'what part did you play in your first birth? Did you decide to be born the first time? If not, then why you think you could decide to be born again?'

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

to which are some of Matthew Henry's comments

That the Spirit, in regeneration, works arbitrarily, and as a free agent. The wind bloweth where it listeth for us, and does not attend our order, nor is subject to our command. God directs it; it fulfils his word, Psa 148:8. The Spirit dispenses his influences where, and when, on whom, and in what measure and degree, he pleases, dividing to every man severally as he will, 1Co 12:11.

2. That he works powerfully, and with evident effects: Thou hearest the sound thereof; though its causes are hidden, its effects are manifest. When the soul is brought to mourn for sin, to groan under the burden of corruption, to breathe after Christ, to cry Abba - Father, then we hear the sound of the Spirit, we find he is at work, as Act 9:11, Behold he prayeth.

3. That he works mysteriously, and in secret hidden ways: Thou canst not tell whence it comes, nor whither it goes. How it gathers and how it spends its strength is a riddle to us; so the manner and methods of the Spirit's working are a mystery. Which way went the Spirit? 1Ki 22:24. See Ecc 11:5, and compare it with Psa 139:14.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

You chose the path. It is not predestined. You have free will. Which BTW includes giving all control to God.

Just because God knows the path doesn't mean He chose it.

If I say I chose the path, wouldn't that take away from the glory of God? Because in my humble opinion, that would mean I did something to get saved, instead of it being all God's gift, power, and mercy.

I would like to add, I do believe in free will, but I not outside of God's will.

 

[HisManySongs]

If I say I chose the path, wouldn't that take away from the glory of God? Because in my humble opinion, that would mean I did something to get saved, instead of it being all God's gift, power, and mercy.

I would like to add, I do believe in free will, but I not outside of God's will.

We did do something, we chose to accept that Jesus died for our sins. It's up to us to accept God's Grace. It does not diminish the gift one bit. God is merciful, but He will not force us to accept His Grace.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

We did do something, we chose to accept that Jesus died for our sins. It's up to us to accept God's Grace. It does not diminish the gift one bit. God is merciful, but He will not force us to accept His Grace.

Right, I see what you are saying, and I agree that we can choose to accept Jesus, but it's not until God chooses to change our heart. With a hardened heart, even though we have free will, we would not choose to accept Christ. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Look what God says here:
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

 

[CCW95A]

If I say I chose the path, wouldn't that take away from the glory of God? Because in my humble opinion, that would mean I did something to get saved, instead of it being all God's gift, power, and mercy.

I would like to add, I do believe in free will, but I not outside of God's will.

If one is saved by "grace", and not of works then no amount of choosing can earn it. Faith has works connected to it, but no amount of faith and works can earn it either. Faith only allows us to access our salvation which is by grace.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Nobody can't be snatched from God's hand. You can't lose your faith because your faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, Acts 16:14-15, 2 Timothy 2:25-26). Also, you are not drawn to the Father out of your own will, but out of the Father's will (John 6:44).

If you cannot come to God on your own then I don't see how anyone can be blamed for not accepting Jesus. I imagine the conversation on judgement say being something like this:
God: Go away! I never knew you!
Dude: But God, you never called me so I couldn't know you. I would have if you called me.
God: That doesn't matter. Now, kindly take your place in hell you disgusting sinner!

If we can't reach out to God then Jesus didn't die for everyone, only those He wanted to be saved.

 

[CCW95A]

If you cannot come to God on your own then I don't see how anyone can be blamed for not accepting Jesus. I imagine the conversation on judgement say being something like this:
God: Go away! I never knew you!
Dude: But God, you never called me so I couldn't know you. I would have if you called me.
God: That doesn't matter. Now, kindly take your place in hell you disgusting sinner!

If we can't reach out to God then Jesus didn't die for everyone, only those He wanted to be saved.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, I have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

The calling is not the problem, the problem is those not answering the call.

 

[porcupine73]

If you cannot come to God on your own then I don't see how anyone can be blamed for not accepting Jesus. I imagine the conversation on judgement say being something like this:
God: Go away! I never knew you!
Dude: But God, you never called me so I couldn't know you. I would have if you called me.
God: That doesn't matter. Now, kindly take your place in hell you disgusting sinner!

If we can't reach out to God then Jesus didn't die for everyone, only those He wanted to be saved.

I think about that sometimes, I was reading in Romans 9:
Rom 9:13-24 KJV
(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[TezriLi]

This is such a hard topic, and it has divided close friends. I'll never forget when I became convinced: I was in a class, and I found myself weeping uncontrollably with shock at the theology. It was humbling.

 

[TezriLi]

Does anyone here believe this is a salvific issue? Personally, I do not.

 

[autumn oddity]

# happy dances with scripture bird # ^^

Oh and sergie... i only say it was sad to agree with you this particular time bc you were saging some are destined for damnation...and that is that type of sadness that has no words.

 

[CCW95A]

This is such a hard topic, and it has divided close friends. I'll never forget when I became convinced: I was in a class, and I found myself weeping uncontrollably with shock at the theology. It was humbling.

Tez, Revelation of God's Word does not bring shock or sorrow, but peace and joy to our hearts. It is when we don't have understanding of it that we get upset. There are a lot of Christians who dislike the foreknowledge and predestination of God because they simply don't understand it. Once we see how God works we will rejoice in his foreknowledge and Wisdom which he used to save man.

 

[TezriLi]

Tez, Revelation of God's Word does not bring shock or sorrow, but peace and joy to our hearts. It is when we don't have understanding of it that we get upset. There are a lot of Christians who dislike the foreknowledge and predestination of God because they simply don't understand it. Once we see how God works we will rejoice in his foreknowledge and Wisdom which he used to save man.

Well, I am sure that is your valid opinion, but you misunderstood what I was TRYING to write.

 

[ASUK]

Every thing a person thinks, says and every decision they will make in this life are already known by God, before the world began. He already knew what your reaction would be to the gospel after hearing it.

So no matter what you do it doesn't matter because it's going to happen regardless of anything. No need in praying even. Why ask for something that isn't in the plan?

It make me wonder why he would make something that he knew was going to be broken. I certainly wouldn't build a house that I knew for a fact was going to fall over as soon as the wind blew.

 

[TezriLi]

So no matter what you do it doesn't matter because it's going to happen regardless of anything. No need in praying even. Why ask for something that isn't in the plan?

It make me wonder why he would make something that he knew was going to be broken. I certainly wouldn't build a house that I knew for a fact was going to fall over as soon as the wind blew.

But we are told that if we pray according to His will, the prayer will be answered in His way, in His wisdom, in His time. He is the One and Only Omniscient one! I pray for many things to go the way I, I, I, I, I, I think is best: thank G-d, He answers in His omniscience! We really should praise Him DAILY for everything we ask for that He does not give us, because He KNOWS what's best.

As far as prayer, He tells us to pray. That should be enough to make us want to do it, whether or not it makes sense to us, all of whom are so limited in knowledge and intelligence.

He made the pharaoh who was a complete failure, who by his actions, begged for the plagues, then ended up in an eternity none of us would want to share. He was broken, but G-d used him to bring about Israel's freedom.