Irresistible Grace & People "falling Away" From Christianity. How Does This Happen?

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ASUK said:
CCW95A said:
Every thing a person thinks, says and every decision they will make in this life are already known by God, before the world began. He already knew what your reaction would be to the gospel after hearing it.
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So no matter what you do it doesn't matter because it's going to happen regardless of anything. No need in praying even. Why ask for something that isn't in the plan?
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What would the counterpoint be except that God does not know everything?
It make me wonder why he would make something that he knew was going to be broken. I certainly wouldn't build a house that I knew for a fact was going to fall over as soon as the wind blew.
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Does Rom 9:13-24 give any insight?
 
tezriLi said:
This is such a hard topic, and it has divided close friends. I'll never forget when I became convinced: I was in a class, and I found myself weeping uncontrollably with shock at the theology. It was humbling.
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Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in
order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who
calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Here we see God telling us that when he chooses one he does not use a method in how man chooses.
He does not have to wait and to see how people live their lives before he chooses them. He already
knows every action of man, and every decision they will make, and he knew this before the creation of
the world. Notice, God did not wait for Jacob and Esau to do anything good or bad before he made his
choice, because he already knew what each one would become. Jacob became a man after God's own
heart, and was a shepherd. Later he was known as “Israel” Esau became a hunter. God's choice was
based on his foreknowledge on what each one would become before they were born. The Lord knew Jacob would become a shepherd and a man after God.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God's mercy is based on his foreknowledge.

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up,
that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the
earth."

Right away we think the only purpose of Pharaohs life was just so God would show his power to the
world. This is not true. Pharaoh had choices to make in his life just like any other person. The words, “I
have raised you up” do not mean his life was only for one purpose. It means, “ to resuscitate (from
death), release (from infliction):” With all the plagues happening in Egypt, God raised up Pharaoh up by protecting
him from them, he guarded him from death so that he would see with his own eyes the Glory of
God, in his ability to set his people free.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

How many people blame God for their behavior, or for who they are, and what they have become?
How man children have come before their parents and say, “why have you made me this way!”
The parents did not make their children how they are, they made themselves how they are!!!
God does not make people bad, people make people bad.

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

If God gives man the choice to choose whom he will serve, and gives him the right to either choose life
or death, blessing or cursing, then does not God also have the right to choose whom will be his. Since
he is the creator. If he wanted he could make man anything he wants him to be to serve him, but that is
not how the Lord works, but he has every right to do so. He gives man the choice to willingly come to
God for salvation, and mans choices are known by God before the foundation of the world.
 
Huntingteckel said:
If you cannot come to God on your own then I don't see how anyone can be blamed for not accepting Jesus.
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I like this verse:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
 
CCW95A said:
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in
order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who
calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Here we see God telling us that when he chooses one he does not use a method in how man chooses.
He does not have to wait and to see how people live their lives before he chooses them. He already
knows every action of man, and every decision they will make, and he knew this before the creation of
the world. Notice, God did not wait for Jacob and Esau to do anything good or bad before he made his
choice, because he already knew what each one would become. Jacob became a man after God's own
heart, and was a shepherd. Later he was known as “Israel” Esau became a hunter. God's choice was
based on his foreknowledge on what each one would become before they were born. The Lord knew Jacob would become a shepherd and a man after God.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God's mercy is based on his foreknowledge.

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up,
that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the
earth."

Right away we think the only purpose of Pharaohs life was just so God would show his power to the
world. This is not true. Pharaoh had choices to make in his life just like any other person. The words, “I
have raised you up” do not mean his life was only for one purpose. It means, “ to resuscitate (from
death), release (from infliction):” With all the plagues happening in Egypt, God raised up Pharaoh up by protecting
him from them, he guarded him from death so that he would see with his own eyes the Glory of
God, in his ability to set his people free.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

How many people blame God for their behavior, or for who they are, and what they have become?
How man children have come before their parents and say, “why have you made me this way!”
The parents did not make their children how they are, they made themselves how they are!!!
God does not make people bad, people make people bad.

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

If God gives man the choice to choose whom he will serve, and gives him the right to either choose life
or death, blessing or cursing, then does not God also have the right to choose whom will be his. Since
he is the creator. If he wanted he could make man anything he wants him to be to serve him, but that is
not how the Lord works, but he has every right to do so. He gives man the choice to willingly come to
God for salvation, and mans choices are known by God before the foundation of the world.
Click to expand...

CCW, you are trying to feed me instant oatmeal, while I am having steak.
 
ASUK said:
So no matter what you do it doesn't matter because it's going to happen regardless of anything. No need in praying even. Why ask for something that isn't in the plan?

It make me wonder why he would make something that he knew was going to be broken. I certainly wouldn't build a house that I knew for a fact was going to fall over as soon as the wind blew.
Click to expand...
You are not seeing what is being said here. You have free will and choice to do anything you want. Nobody is making you do anything but you your self. God already knows every thing you are going to do before you do it. He knows every thought, word, action and every hair on your head. You can not surprise the Lord in anything. You dont know what you are going to do, but he does.
 
CCW95A said:
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, I have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

The calling is not the problem, the problem is those not answering the call.
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I agree but some would say that only a few are called. I believe Jesus died for everyone and I think it's wrong to say that some people are just born damned.


porcupine73 said:
I think about that sometimes, I was reading in Romans 9:
Rom 9:13-24 KJV
(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
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Romans is an interesting book. Every time I read it I think about Calvinism.
Where is the Messiah said:
I like this verse:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Click to expand...

I would agree that we have no right to talk back, but if we say only a few are predestined to be saved then I don't see how God could be a God of love. It's like a father that locks his young child in a closet and gives him water, but no access to a bathroom and then beats him relentlessly when he has an accident. It doesn't make sense to punish someone for not doing something, like using a toilet, that you didn't give them access to.

*Edit*
I don't see "common use" and being created for the sole purpose of going to hell as being similar. I'd see that verse as a very talented person that God uses and then me, being in the common use category.
 
CCW95A said:
You are not seeing what is being said here. You have free will and choice to do anything you want. Nobody is making you do anything but you your self. God already knows every thing you are going to do before you do it. He knows every thought, word, action and every hair on your head. You can not surprise the Lord in anything. You dont know what you are going to do, but he does.
Click to expand...

If it's already known then it is predestined. If it's predestined then nothing that you do or don't do matters because you can't change what will be.
 
It seems to me that people struggle with predestination because they are
Huntingteckel said:
If you cannot come to God on your own then I don't see how anyone can be blamed for not accepting Jesus. I imagine the conversation on judgement say being something like this:
God: Go away! I never knew you!
Dude: But God, you never called me so I couldn't know you. I would have if you called me.
God: That doesn't matter. Now, kindly take your place in hell you disgusting sinner!

If we can't reach out to God then Jesus didn't die for everyone, only those He wanted to be saved.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that I can't blame God for my sins. He made me the way I am and before he made me he knew that I would sin in the ways in which I have sinned, but I have no excuse for these sins because when I committed them I did it willingly.
 
ASUK said:
If it's already known then it is predestined. If it's predestined then nothing that you do or don't do matters because you can't change what will be.
Click to expand...
It's all to display God's glory, as it mentions in Romans 9.

If you have a heart then I'm sure you could not bare to see a child being murdered, regardless of your free will. Why? Because its not in your nature. If someone tells you that you have the option to murder a kid, won't you choose to save that kids life every time? It was your choice but God gave you the heart that makes you choose what you do. Just my thought on it :)
 
SergioL said:
It seems to me that people struggle with predestination because they are


I am pretty sure that I can't blame God for my sins. He made me the way I am and before he made me he knew that I would sin in the ways in which I have sinned, but I have no excuse for these sins because when I committed them I did it willingly.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that God is to blame for my sins. I'm saying it's wrong to punish someone for not coming to Christ when God wouldn't let them. I don't agree with that view and I find Calvinism as a whole disgusting. I don't say that to insult anyone, but I feel it denies what Christ did for all of us for the whole purpose of feeling special.

I don't really have a problem with predestination. There is a difference between predestination and election the way that Calvinists believe.
 
ASUK said:
If it's already known then it is predestined. If it's predestined then nothing that you do or don't do matters because you can't change what will be.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is already known to God, but not to you! God knowing what you are going to do does not change what you are going to do. You are free to do anything you want, nobody is making you do anything. You can change what you do anytime you want, but the Lord already knows what you are going to do. He is not making you do anything! You are!
 
In the end, the final statement, the bottom line is G-d is G-d and no matter what He does, His intelligence and wisdom are so far beyond ours that we can hardly even call them "intelligence" and "wisdom," because we cannot even begin to conceive of either in relation to Him.

Well, that's just a mouthful of folderol trying to say that whatever He chooses and does should be all right with all of us.
 
Huntingteckel said:
I didn't say that God is to blame for my sins. I'm saying it's wrong to punish someone for not coming to Christ when God wouldn't let them. I don't agree with that view and I find Calvinism as a whole disgusting. I don't say that to insult anyone, but I feel it denies what Christ did for all of us for the whole purpose of feeling special.

I don't really have a problem with predestination. There is a difference between predestination and election the way that Calvinists believe.
Click to expand...

You have to take into account that those who are predestined for damnation reject Christ with all their hearts. They are not feeling sorry for themselves while thinking, "Oh, I would like to be accepted by God, but he doesn't like me". Can you imagine Richard Dawkins saying: "Oh God, I tried so hard to come to you, but you rejected me every time"?
 
Huntingteckel said:
I agree but some would say that only a few are called. I believe Jesus died for everyone and I think it's wrong to say that some people are just born damned.





Romans is an interesting book. Every time I read it I think about Calvinism.


I would agree that we have no right to talk back, but if we say only a few are predestined to be saved then I don't see how God could be a God of love. It's like a father that locks his young child in a closet and gives him water, but no access to a bathroom and then beats him relentlessly when he has an accident. It doesn't make sense to punish someone for not doing something, like using a toilet, that you didn't give them access to.

*Edit*
I don't see "common use" and being created for the sole purpose of going to hell as being similar. I'd see that verse as a very talented person that God uses and then me, being in the common use category.
Click to expand...
This is why many believers do not like predestination, or election, or the foreknowledge of God because they do not understand it.
Jesus died for all men!!!! All men can be saved if they choose to be saved, but not all are willing to believe! It so happens that God knows exactly every one who will make that choice before the foundation of the world. The people he chooses and elects to be his are those who made the choice to receive his gift of salvation in their life time, which he already knew. In other words you get to choose if you want to be one of his elect!!!
 
SergioL said:
You have to take into account that those who are predestined for damnation reject Christ with all their hearts. They are not feeling sorry for themselves while thinking, "Oh, I would like to be accepted by God, but he doesn't like me". Can you imagine Richard Dawkins saying: "Oh God, I tried so hard to come to you, but you rejected me every time"?
Click to expand...

Like I said, there is a difference between predestination with free will and predestination without free will. People that deny Christ get the punishment fitting their crime, but I don't believe there are people out there that are punished without being given the option.
 
Huntingteckel said:
Like I said, there is a difference between predestination with free will and predestination without free will. People that deny Christ get the punishment fitting their crime, but I don't believe there are people out there that are punished without being given the option.
Click to expand...

All those who are predestined for damnation reject Christ with all their heart. That's the sole reason why they are damned.
 
CCW95A said:
This is why many believers do not like predestination, or election, or the foreknowledge of God because they do not understand it.
Jesus died for all men!!!! All men can be saved if they choose to be saved, but not all are willing to believe! It so happens that that God knows exactly every one who will make that choice before the foundation of the world. The people he chooses and elects to be his are those who made the choice to receive his gift of salvation, which he already knows. In other words you get to choose if you want to be one of his elect!!!
Click to expand...


I see what you're saying.
 
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