Is God your AUTHORITY?

[Big Moose]

Brother Moose,
Sorry I just wanted to always say that ever since I was a little kid and heard a member of the local moose lodge say that to another.

Ok but what is "Justified by works" ? and not faith alone ?
What else did James say about faith and works ? Faith with out works is dead. So what is this works of faith that James is talking about ? It kind of all goes together here.
Blessings
Jim

Brother Fish Catchin Moose, you are hereby an honorary member of the Moose Association! When I see your name I am reminded of the Gaithers version of "I Catch 'Em, God Cleans 'Em".
He said, "I catch 'em, God cleans 'em
I bait the hook with the love of the Kingdom
I've been called to be a fisher of men"

"I catch 'em, God cleans 'em
Heaven knows He saves every soul that believes Him
I reel 'em in and He washes away their sin"

Love that song.
I was kinda egging Euphemia on a little to try to get her to expound on how she sees the James section. For me, I understand it to mean we are saved through faith alone, our faith is justified by works. In the faith without works is dead, dead can have a metaphoric meaning of " destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative". As in faith without works is worthless, powerless and a do-nothing.
Just as a car battery can be "dead", but still have enough charge to cause sparks. Can't start the car, but it still has a faint charge.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Brother Fish Catchin Moose, you are hereby an honorary member of the Moose Association! When I see your name I am reminded of the Gaithers version of "I Catch 'Em, God Cleans 'Em".
He said, "I catch 'em, God cleans 'em
I bait the hook with the love of the Kingdom
I've been called to be a fisher of men"

"I catch 'em, God cleans 'em
Heaven knows He saves every soul that believes Him
I reel 'em in and He washes away their sin"

Love that song.
I was kinda egging Euphemia on a little to try to get her to expound on how she sees the James section. For me, I understand it to mean we are saved through faith alone, our faith is justified by works. In the faith without works is dead, dead can have a metaphoric meaning of " destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative". As in faith without works is worthless, powerless and a do-nothing.
Just as a car battery can be "dead", but still have enough charge to cause sparks. Can't start the car, but it still has a faint charge.

Thank You I needed that !!
Blessings
Jim

 

[Truth]

God decided before the foundation of the world how He was going to bring us salvation.



God doesn't make us unrighteous! We are BORN unrighteous! Jesus makes us righteous!



There is no "but". When we have experienced such grace, we will seek His will.



NO. We are saved by faith alone. Our good and Godly works and our obedient hearts are an outflow of the transformed mind that takes place when we invite Jesus to live in and through us.

You do know that the devil believes / has faith that Jesus Christ is the Messiah so will they also be saved since they have faith only and no works ?

 

[Euphemia]

You do know that the devil believes / has faith that Jesus Christ is the Messiah so will they also be saved since they have faith only and no works ?

You do know that what Satan believes has NOTHING to do with faith, don't you?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

You do know that the devil believes / has faith that Jesus Christ is the Messiah so will they also be saved since they have faith only and no works ?

Truth,
The devil and his bunch believe Jesus is the son of God because Jesus has kicked his butt big time over and over and over again. With that said there is NO Faith in the devil. The devil is fear as God is Love. All angels are created spirit beings - they have no temptor as we do - they were created to obey God and that is it. Once one does anything other then this they are sent packen and doomed for eternity. With these created beings there is a one strike rule if you will. Obey or cast out.

Blessings
Jim

 

[Truth]

You do know that what Satan believes has NOTHING to do with faith, don't you?

Strong - faith ( g4102) conviction of the truth of anything ,faith
Strong- believe (g4100 ) faith
Vine - faith (pistis ) Romans 10:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 faith is translated belief.
James 2:19 makes the point that even the devils believe .This verse is placed in the middle of the faith and works to point out that even the devil has faith .

 

[Brother Bear]

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I believe a Church is...and should remain just a temple of praise, worship, and a place for the poor and helpless to come and find shelter. I do not believe a church should go beyond that. I also believe a spiritual connection is the most important connection to have with God The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. I believe our bodies are indeed temples for The Holy Spirit, and that is the best temple. I believe that their are many forms and practices to get close to God, but I do not believe man can dictate the prerequisite to enter into heaven. We were told through The Son we can see The Father. But it should not end there, for we have a duty to spread not only the word but happiness and peace amongst all. I for one am against a church or temple who alienates anyone. Be them Aethiest, homosexual or Muslim. We are all children of the Most High. I believe in a church that can follow the 11 commandments (yes I said 11 chuckles) and who seeks to help as opposed to harm. I am not to fond of seeing a super church down the street that cares nothing for the homeless shelter down the road. I only pray when I can start preaching that the temple I create be a place for all those who seek shelter.


Side Note: The things I do not believe a church should do is dictate. Lead by the graces of God and by the guidance of God, but not dictate. Dictators often become corrupt and a victim of what I believe was the first sin. The most deadly Pride.

 

[Major]

I get it ,that I am the only person who believes that baptism is essential .

How do I know which church is correctly teaching the scriptures , they ALL say that they are teaching the word of God and ALL are worshiping according to the will of God but there are many differences in their teachings and worshiping .
All of the different church members I speak with believe that their church is teaching and worshiping the way God intended.
Can I just worship at any church of my choice and be saved.

No, you are not the only one who believes that baptism is necessary for salvation. There are many who are equally wrong in their Bible understanding.

 

[Major]

There are thousands of denominations and thousands of churches.
They all preach and teach that they are preaching and teaching by THE HOLY SCRIPTURES .
I believe that there are but a few that are even coming close to preaching and teaching THE HOLY SCRIPTURES .
Many want to add words and others want to remove words .
Many want to change the meaning of words and others believe that meanings of words need to be changed for today .
I BELIEVE that THE HOLY SPIRIT used the correct words in the correct passages for us to see what God wants us to do to receive His Grace .
We must be like the Bereans and be willing to search and RIGHTLY divide God's word by putting them in context with all other scriptures to see the WHOLE STORY .
A very simple lesson to see how all scriptures are related is to read Mathew, Mark , Luke and John to see how when they are combined that you find out that Peter cut of the right ear of Malcus who was a relative and servant of the High Priest and was also the last person to ask Peter if he was with Jesus before the cock crowed .
Each gospel only gives us a portion of the facts . When all of them are combined ,then you know the WHOLE STORY .
Just like you do when all of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES are put together.
An example in Romans 3:38 a man is justified by faith and Romans 5:1 being justified by faith ,many say that it is by faith ( only and not by works) .
1Thessalonians1:3 says that faith is a work .
2 Thessalonians 1:11 says faith is a work.
James by the Holy Spirit explains faith and works or works and faith better than I can .
The HOLY SCRUPTURES are meant to be taken as a whole .

All of that sounds really good so then how did you get so confused on baptism being an essential to salvation?????

 

[Major]

I believe that baptism is an act that is required by God .
Have you ever wondered how Philip brought up baptism to the Eunuch , oh by the way if you want to prove to me that you really believe you can be baptized.
Paul must have told the prison guard , oh by the way I want you and your house to be baptized to prove to me that you believe .
Peter must have said to Cornelius we don't see why you and your house don't get baptized to prove to us that you believe .
I believe that if it was only a ( believers ) baptism that it would have never been said that it is for remission of sins or to wash away sins .
Your scriptures say that if I do not do what I believe is right ,then I am sinning .
Is that what you are trying for . If it isn't ,then you should be careful about how you try to instruct others , because if I did not do what I believe to be right because you tell me that it is a little thing , then you are causing me to sin .

Romans 8:9 ................
"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."

In order to be saved, one must have the Holy Spirit within them. Not only is having the Spirit what saves us the Scripture tells us that happens at the moment we believe, not the moment we are baptized with water.

Ephesians 1:13 ..........
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. "

The passage in Romans makes it clear that having the Holy Spirit means we are saved and Ephesians tells us that happens the moment we believe. Having the Holy Spirit is how we know we are saved. Therefore, in order for water baptism to be required for salvation no one would be able to receive the Holy Spirit without having first been baptized with water. There could be no exceptions to this rule.

Too often the doctrine is confused because some people are too quick to impose the word water upon every Scripture that mentions the word baptism. We must remember that the word baptism does not always imply water baptism. It is the spiritual baptism that happens at salvation that makes us part of the body of Christ. Water has nothing to do with it.

 

[Francis Drake]

Too often the doctrine is confused because some people are too quick to impose the word water upon every Scripture that mentions the word baptism. We must remember that the word baptism does not always imply water baptism. It is the spiritual baptism that happens at salvation that makes us part of the body of Christ. Water has nothing to do with it.

Indeed, not all biblical baptisms have anything whatsoever to do with the gospel, salvation, new birth or the Holy Spirit etc.
Baptism to the Greeks was what we Brits call a "bog standard" word, simply meaning to bathe or immerse. It was used for washing the pots etc.
Mark7v3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; 4and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse (Baptise) themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing (Baptising) of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"…

In comparison to the Pharisees, the disciples and Jesus were obviously considered a smelly unclean lot! But then appearances are not everything. LOL

 

[Euphemia]

Strong - faith ( g4102) conviction of the truth of anything ,faith
Strong- believe (g4100 ) faith
Vine - faith (pistis ) Romans 10:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 faith is translated belief.
James 2:19 makes the point that even the devils believe .This verse is placed in the middle of the faith and works to point out that even the devil has faith .

Satan "believes" that Jesus is the Son of God. He has no faith whatsoever. He hates Him!!!

 

[Truth]

No, you are not the only one who believes that baptism is necessary for salvation. There are many who are equally wrong in their Bible understanding.

You are correct about me not being the only person who believes that baptism is required for salvation.
I was posting that statement to this forum.
I see that you will not except the Truth of God's word .
All I can do is point out the errors .
We will all know on judgement day , can we at least agree on that statement?

Answer this .
Why are there many people who " claim " that they are lead or know or understand what the Holy Spirit tells them ,and they all have a different understanding.

 

[Truth]

Satan "believes" that Jesus is the Son of God. He has no faith whatsoever. He hates Him!!!

That is a contradiction of terms . That is what James is pointing out ,that even the devils ( believe, have faith ,know , understand ) that Jesus is the son of God , but they will not do the works required ,like many who will find out on judgement day. Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter Heaven ,only those who have done His WILL.


You have posted many times that when you are saved that you will always be saved . That once you are made righteous, you can't be made unrighteous.
Are you saying that those spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1 were never righteous.
How do you leave the faith if you never had the faith.
You say if you have the faith then you are righteous.

 

[Euphemia]

That is a contradiction of terms . That is what James is pointing out ,that even the devils ( believe, have faith ,know , understand ) that Jesus is the son of God , but they will not do the works required ,like many who will find out on judgement day. Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter Heaven ,only those who have done His WILL.

There is no contradiction anywhere. James is saying that even the enemy believes who Jesus is, but that's a mental assent. We are called into relationship with Jesus---in body, soul and spirit.

You have posted many times that when you are saved that you will always be saved . That once you are made righteous, you can't be made unrighteous.
Are you saying that those spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1 were never righteous.
How do you leave the faith if you never had the faith.
You say if you have the faith then you are righteous.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2 These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.

Such people are unbelievers, hypocrites, liars and are not brethren. The churches are full of believers mixed with unbelievers. Many of these unbelievers are those tares spoken of in scripture---neatly tied into the local body, doing and speaking according tot he word of God, but their hearts are not His home.

If we could all recognize tares easily, we would have to be warned...but tares are identical to wheat in all respects---until harvest time. So we must keep our wits about us as we serve God, always keen to make sure we do not fall into error, for it is these tares who are actually being used by the enemy to groom us with error, and these people can be found sitting next to us in the pews!! So, differences can be an important way for us to determine who is true and who is false among us.

We are only made righteous by having a true revelation of Jesus Christ and receiving His life in us by faith. His life in ours makes us new creatures, and transforms us completely. If there is no change, and one is still living the same life he had before, and is not sensitive to sin, then one reveals that he is still in need of salvation.

 

[Truth]

There is no contradiction anywhere. James is saying that even the enemy believes who Jesus is, but that's a mental assent. We are called into relationship with Jesus---in body, soul and spirit.



1 Timothy 4:1-2
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2 These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.

Such people are unbelievers, hypocrites, liars and are not brethren. The churches are full of believers mixed with unbelievers. Many of these unbelievers are those tares spoken of in scripture---neatly tied into the local body, doing and speaking according tot he word of God, but their hearts are not His home.

If we could all recognize tares easily, we would have to be warned...but tares are identical to wheat in all respects---until harvest time. So we must keep our wits about us as we serve God, always keen to make sure we do not fall into error, for it is these tares who are actually being used by the enemy to groom us with error, and these people can be found sitting next to us in the pews!! So, differences can be an important way for us to determine who is true and who is false among us.

We are only made righteous by having a true revelation of Jesus Christ and receiving His life in us by faith. His life in ours makes us new creatures, and transforms us completely. If there is no change, and one is still living the same life he had before, and is not sensitive to sin, then one reveals that he is still in need of salvation.

Do I see that you are saying that the Holy spirit made another mistake in 1Timothy 4:1 when he had Paul to write that some will depart from the faith .
How do you depart if you are never there.

 

[Euphemia]

Do I see that you are saying that the Holy spirit made another mistake in 1Timothy 4:1 when he had Paul to write that some will depart from the faith .
How do you depart if you are never there.

Holy Spirit makes no mistakes. People do. Two points about that.

1. The word doesn't say that these people are not salved people. Falling away from faith could mean they are prodigals, for which God does not cast away.

2. As I said, there a re all sorts of people who claim faith among us but have not had saving faith. These are those who easily depart.

People can have the appearance of faith, but have nothing. They are dead, spiritually.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Do I see that you are saying that the Holy spirit made another mistake in 1Timothy 4:1 when he had Paul to write that some will depart from the faith .
How do you depart if you are never there.

How is this done ? do things with out faith - go their own way - walk a non-Godly life

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

You know if ya'll would spend as much time seeking God and learning His truths as you do trying to prove mistakes and so forth you migh actually begin to understand His word.
Any One Agree With This ?

 

[Big Moose]

Yet again it is helpful to get the context of surrounding verses in 1 Timothy 4:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
The HS thru Paul draws the contrast between those who departed from the faith as opposed to those who believe and know the truth. This tells me that those who may have been brought up in the faith within their family, who know the teachings but do not know Jesus personally, take on leadership roles, or at least try to, and fall into the devil's snare, teaching false piety, false tradition and false doctrine.