Kj,
Your quote from James is to the believer.
Is it right to side with moderate Muslims?
- Thread starter Grant Melville
- Start date
Your quote from James is to the believer.
1. The demon possessed analogy sounds right but it's not. i. Not all the unsaved are in an Emily Rose / Anneliese Michel state. ii. Not all the unsaved have the thoughts of 8 demons causing chaos in their lives (liar to ...murderer?). I could go on and on
.This is mostly a warning to not cast demons out of someone who does not want to replace the void with Jesus. This is not a warning to the unsaved who are not demon possessed. Demons can't do as they wish. When Jesus says the unsaved are of their father the devil, it is figurative. They are after his heart. They are sinning like he did / does. The devil looks for whom he can devour 1 Pet 5:8.
If the message is that this verse applies to someone who wants to do what is right but just can't get that right. Well the effort to keep chasing that 'demon' out, shows God that that person does not want the demon surely. Now if someone does not want the demon....they do not want the demon...? I have explained that loving God is not saying ''I love you God''. It is not saying '' I accept Jesus''. It is not saying anything. Loving God is hating what is evil. Wanting the demon out is hating what is evil. Now hating what is evil does not cleanse you. But it does show God your heart and He takes notice.
2. The devil gives us those crazy additions to a religion. Like human sacrifices. Or as in the case of Muslims, ''cut off fingertips and heads to cast terror''. Our conscience knows this is wrong. We cannot get to heaven from obeying our conscience but we can certainly escape hell with it. Hence Jesus does not save anyone from hell. Always remember those in the OT. Those in Hades got themselves there by loving what is evil John 3:19. Those in Abrahams bosom by hating what is evil Rom 12:9, like Paul did Rom 7:15.
3. Believing in Jesus is nothing. The devils believe James 2:19. We have to believe Jesus is Lord and can only do that by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. The Holy Spirit only reveales this to us if we are after God's heart. As I said to Jim, the second line of James 4:8 is quite clear on how we draw close to Jesus. As is Psalm 51:17, Matt 16:24, James 1:27 and Rom 12:9.
Well yes and no. James preached very much like Paul did. IE Speaking respectfully to all in the church. IE never singling out the unsaved from the saved.
But I am not going to argue this with you. If you want to read James 4:8 as to the believer that is fine. Then lets discuss how the second line from James is worlds apart from your proposal.
Your line: Drawing close to God means you meditate on His word and put into practice this life style His word teaches us and develope a God pleasing prayer life.
James: Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
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Drawing near to God is not geographical. For God is omnipresent.
To draw near to God is first phsycological to think or see things like God does.
If I be lifted up a I will draw ALL men unto me.
No man can draw near to God nor see things as God sees things unless he comes to the cross.
For there he will see in some measure the nature of sin it's consequences and God's abhorrence of it.
There he will see in some measure the nature of his own heare in comparison to Christ's.
There he will see the depths in some measure of God love.
The awfulness of sin and what it will or can do.
There he will or can be reconciled to God.
There he comes to the light.
There the law and the love of God and the mercy of God are justly righteously and perfectly reconciled.
There through death man is freed from the fear of death and the prince of this world is stripped of his power.
If a man then comes to the cross and is reconciled to God.Then he can then draw near to God to the Holy place and with boldness enter into the presence of God.
In Christian
Gerald
To draw near to God is first phsycological to think or see things like God does.
If I be lifted up a I will draw ALL men unto me.
No man can draw near to God nor see things as God sees things unless he comes to the cross.
For there he will see in some measure the nature of sin it's consequences and God's abhorrence of it.
There he will see in some measure the nature of his own heare in comparison to Christ's.
There he will see the depths in some measure of God love.
The awfulness of sin and what it will or can do.
There he will or can be reconciled to God.
There he comes to the light.
There the law and the love of God and the mercy of God are justly righteously and perfectly reconciled.
There through death man is freed from the fear of death and the prince of this world is stripped of his power.
If a man then comes to the cross and is reconciled to God.Then he can then draw near to God to the Holy place and with boldness enter into the presence of God.
In Christian
Gerald
1. What's happening in churches today is worse then anything the RCC did in the past.
2. Agreed. I see what the Pope did as more inline with Pauls' recommendation in 1 Cor 5:9-10 I wrote to you in my letter not to associatewith sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
Fundamental of Catholic dogma ''Christ the redeemer'' http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-III-Redeemer.
- Jesus Christ is true God and true Son of God.
- The Son of God became man in order to redeem men.
- Fallen man cannot redeem himself.
- Christ offered Himself on the Cross as a true and proper sacrifice.
- Christ by His sacrifice on the Cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with God.
"There is none righteous"
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
"Ye have by your traditions made the word of God of none effect"
If you mix truth with error you will like mixing a donkey with a horse get something,
A mule.
But a mule has no life in it to be able to reproduce itself.
So likewise if you mix truth with error you will get something. But it has no life in it.Or makes the Word of God of none effect.
This idea that God has reconciled the unbeliver is absurd.
That while God so loved the world while saying none is excluded from that love.It does not mean that all will benefit .
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son...........
You can give and not love,but you cannot love and not give.
So while none is excluded.The promise however excludes those in the world who do not believe.
That who so ever beliveth on His hall NOT perish but have everlasting life.
Says also then that if you do not you will.
A Moslem will say they believe in Jesus.
If you wish to believe their part truth you are to some extent tent at liberty to do so.
But as they do not believe that He is the only begotten Son of God. They also do not believe he died on the cross then they also do not believe then that he rose from the dead.
The promise of God then does not apply to them!in that state of affairs and if you or any encourage them In their delusion are you not then guilty of the same error?
If you then argue that they are on the way to believing?the truth you clearly have not talked to any or enough Moselms. They are neither in the way seeking the way or will find it on the course they are on.
When the Lord mixed with sinners and publicans etc ando tax collectors,it was not to align hims elf with their sin or nature.
But as a physician and Saviour.
His first words preached was"unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish"
The rich young man it is recorded he loved,but he did not go chasing off after him when the young man chose his riches rather than follow Christ.
He effected a radical change to all who were willing.
And while he healed and delivered all who came to him. (That's his nature)Not all who came wanted anything else or felt the need for a radical change.
They were and many still today are like ducks on a lake that will follow you while you give them bread.but desire nothing else and when you speak of the cross will leave you seeking others who have what they want.
A mole is happy to agree with you while you blandly speak of Jesus.
But as soon as you speak of those things that are needful for all men to hear,they close their ears and oppose you.
Though not you but the Holy Ghost.
In Christ
Gerald
You are assuming a lot here Gerald. I am not saying a Muslim is going to heaven. I am saying a good person is en route to finding Jesus.
I saw a testimony of a Muslim who converted to Christianity a year or so ago. His tactic in winning them over was to challenge them to be more devout Muslims.
The truth is that no good person on the planet will reject Jesus / God will not ignore anyone after His heart.
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Not sure I agree with you here.
You are right though, yet I still beg to differ
The whole world has been reconciled in that because of and for the sake of Christ Jesus, the wrath of God is being withheld..for a time.
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
The things I'm seeing here is reconciling (to receive one into favor Thayer 1c G235)
and the world...kosmos,...the whole kit and caboodle.
And also the future tense that is used in Romans.
So, I'm thinking there is benefit for all, including unbelievers until the day of wrath dawns.
But, maybe I'm taking too broad a view here.
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That is a good point IMO.
I would not dare to presume that a Muslim cannot be saved . I will however dare to say that that he is not saved by any other way than Gods way.
Jesus said I AM the way the truth and the life,no man commeth unto the Father accept by me"
Now when some one said to the Lord "Good master......" He replied why call me good ? seeing that only my father in heaven is good"
He was stating that the source of his goodness was of the Father .
By what measure then are you calling 'good'?
Paul(?) says "in my flesh there is no good thing"
A man not yet converted is on a slippery slope and is nigh unto being cast into the fire.
Did not one man say to Paul "I am almost persuaded"?
Yet never was .
The rich young man had a good ambition , "How can I INHERIT eternal life" He already understood it could not be earned .
Yet when the Lord told him in effect his riches were a barrier to him and told him HOW he might inherit eternal life he was exceedingly sorrowful and went away inheriting nothing.
He was lost and undone without hope and without Christ. Yet he hoped to inherit eternal life.
He left without ANY hope and was still lost and undone and without Christ and the further he went the further he was away from Christ.
A Muslim is no nearer Christ by becoming a better Muslim than a Hindu is bowing even lower to an idol .
"It STILL pleases God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"? My emphasis.
Preach what?
The Cross .
"Foolishness to them that are perishing ,the power of God unto salvation to them that believe "
If you start with the truth and speak the truth "line upon line precept upon precept" then you will and can arrive at the truth .
If you start with a lie you have to uphold the first lie with another lie and so on and if you go that way you will finish up with a lie.
If you start with a lie you will not nor cannot arrive at the truth you will or can only do so if you repent of the lie and start with or exchange the lie for the truth and continue in it then you will or can arrive at the truth .
Two men both seemingly starting in the same place aiming for the moon.
But one man a minute of a degree off the true .
For a while they both look like they are heading for the same thing .
But as time progresses as each continues on their chosen course . The lines will begin to part and increase in doing so .
The one who is a degree off can if in time still repent and cross to the other though in truth he may well have to start from the beginning .
But there will come a point when the distance will be too wide and the ONLY recourse is to go back to the beginning (if it was possible.)
For as time passes that one degree off becomes greater and greater and will miss the moon entirely .
ALL things that COME from God . LEAD you to GOD .
ALL things that do not come from God ,lead you away from God.
You are either for me and gather or against me and scatter said Jesus .
in Christ
gerald
"The heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all others and who can know it"
in Christ
gerald
Not sure I agree with you here.
You are right though, yet I still beg to differ
The whole world has been reconciled in that because of and for the sake of Christ Jesus, the wrath of God is being withheld..for a time.
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
The things I'm seeing here is reconciling (to receive one into favor Thayer 1c G235)
and the world...kosmos,...the whole kit and caboodle.
And also the future tense that is used in Romans.
So, I'm thinking there is benefit for all, including unbelievers until the day of wrath dawns.
But, maybe I'm taking too broad a view here.
You said it .Not I .
To all and at one time me also .They who do not believe on Him whom God has sent "the wrath of God ABIDES on them still"
The salvation of God that ALL men CAN be reconciled to God is beyond dispute .
For is it not also written "God is not willing that ANY should perish bu that all should come to a knowledge fo the truth"?
Put that verse with John 3:16 and it may become clearer .
When the Lord took of his own bread and dipped it in his own cup and offered it to Judas.
For a Lord of the feast to do that is a great honour to whom it is offered to .
I dont really think any of us know the depths of that treachery of Judas But we can see in a measure at least the will of the Lord .For despite what he knew HE of his own will desired that ALL should come to a knowledge of the truth .
But despite the honour shown ,Judas if he did at all did not receive it in honour. But having never allowed the Lord to change him even at this late hour he went on the same course he had always been on.Even from the beginning.
and instead responding and the love of God filling his heart , he hardened his heart and the devil did .
Gods will is one thing . a mans will is another .
If men say they have freedom of choice .Then God says he also .
When the Lord wasa born he was BORN king of the Jews and he died king of the Jews and he is coming again King of the Jews .
For he is the same yesterday today and forever.
That the Jews did not either believe or receive him as such does not change the FACT .
The Lords out stretched arm will, to the unbeliever who remains an unbeliever will make his judgment far worse .
But all who repent "shall not perish but have ever lasting life" and be reconciled.
in Christ
gerald
1. Agreed. Now we just need to focus on how exactly we come to Jesus.
2. We have discussed this before recently on this forum. The fact that there is ''none who do good'' is a discussion that can take many pages
. It is because many read that in a Calvinistic sense. Note that Jesus is comparing us to God. We know that there is no sin whatsoever in God's presence. Jesus is making the same point here that He made in Matt 5:28. We all have sin. But Jesus qaulifies Himself in Matt 5:32 when He says do not divorce except for actual adultery. Paul also reveals the heart of someone after God's in Rom 7:15 ''he sins but he hates it'' + he was not killing Christians / in mortal sin.The point of there being none good is hence referring to the fact that nobody is good enough to be in God's presence. It is a cop out to think this implies we have no obligation to examine our motives and actions 1 Cor 11:31. As I said in a prior post... We got ourselves into Abrahams bosom in the OT. Others got themselves into Hades. We choose to hate what is evil or love it. That is the verdict John 3:19.
3. I can agree that the righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18.
4. A Muslim and Hindu can be forgiven for idolatry. Sins unto God they are not as aware of as Jews and Christians. But sins unto fellow man, they are. If an atheist feeds an orphan in need...it is good. Just ask the orphan.
5. I explained my scriptural view on ''believing'' in post #2.
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You are interpreting this line as you are the ''nobody who does good''.
The point here is simply that only God can know the heart. God judges heart and mind at a level we can't Jer 17:10.
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It has been like this from day one. I have this picture in my mind of how Adam and Eve were bringing up their family outside the garden of Eden. None of them worthy to be in because they all sinned '''none that does good''. But yet Abel was a good kid and Cain, not. Cain was excommunicated because he murdered. Abel did not murder. Adam and Eve did not murder. We don't have to complicate things.
Are you not then by your own argument judging their heart to which you say no one can judge?
But is not the Word of God a "discerner and revealed of the thoughts and intents of the heart"?
And what of Paul who said the Spiritual man judges all things and is judged by none?
Perhaps if people actually used the "sword of the Spirit" more than "the enticing words of man's wisdom" they would discern more accurately? For while a I will readily admit that I cannot in of and by myself know the heart of any man. I will readily confess that He who knows the mind of God knows also the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
I will not also say who will go down,for that is to bring Christ up,nor will I say who will go up,for that will bring Christ down,but what sayeth the Word? The word of faith is nigh thee even I thy lips "
I will repeat then having taled and listened to many Moslems from all walks of life,and from the ignorant to the learned.
I have found about 5 out of a hundred and more who not only listened as carefully to what I said as carefully as I listened to them and who may be said in some measure to have a chance or hope of salvation.
But the Roman church like all she does is not what it appears.So I will stand by what I've said.
And will continue to preach to the Moslems as to all men "unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish"
In Christ
Gerald
But is not the Word of God a "discerner and revealed of the thoughts and intents of the heart"?
And what of Paul who said the Spiritual man judges all things and is judged by none?
Perhaps if people actually used the "sword of the Spirit" more than "the enticing words of man's wisdom" they would discern more accurately? For while a I will readily admit that I cannot in of and by myself know the heart of any man. I will readily confess that He who knows the mind of God knows also the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
I will not also say who will go down,for that is to bring Christ up,nor will I say who will go up,for that will bring Christ down,but what sayeth the Word? The word of faith is nigh thee even I thy lips "
I will repeat then having taled and listened to many Moslems from all walks of life,and from the ignorant to the learned.
I have found about 5 out of a hundred and more who not only listened as carefully to what I said as carefully as I listened to them and who may be said in some measure to have a chance or hope of salvation.
But the Roman church like all she does is not what it appears.So I will stand by what I've said.
And will continue to preach to the Moslems as to all men "unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish"
In Christ
Gerald
I was not suggesting that a Moslems or a Hindu can't be saved.1. Agreed. Now we just need to focus on how exactly we come to Jesus.
2. We have discussed this before recently on this forum. The fact that there is ''none who do good'' is a discussion that can take many pages
The point of there being none good is hence referring to the fact that nobody is good enough to be in God's presence. It is a cop out to think this implies we have no obligation to examine our motives and actions 1 Cor 11:31. As I said in a prior post... We got ourselves into Abrahams bosom in the OT. Others got themselves into Hades. We choose to hate what is evil or love it. That is the verdict John 3:19.
3. I can agree that the righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18.
4. A Muslim and Hindu can be forgiven for idolatry. Sins unto God they are not as aware of as Jews and Christians. But sins unto fellow man, they are. If an atheist feeds an orphan in need...it is good. Just ask the orphan.
5. I explained my scriptural view on ''believing'' in post #2.
I do state though they can't be saved by any other way.
Than the way all men have been saved even from Abel.
A man may believe what he likes that still does it save him,
The devil also believes.He is not saved either.
In Christ
Gerald