Is it right to side with moderate Muslims?

KingJ said:
It has been like this from day one. I have this picture in my mind of how Adam and Eve were bringing up their family outside the garden of Eden. None of them worthy to be in because they all sinned '''none that does good''. But yet Abel was a good kid and Cain, not. Cain was excommunicated because he murdered. Abel did not murder. Adam and Eve did not murder. We don't have to complicate things.
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Abel was a good kid?by what do you measure that by?
"In my flesh there is no good thing."
The only good thing he did was offer up to God the sacraficed lamb.
That good that was truly good was what was acceptable to God.
In the doing of it.he confessed he was a sinner,he confessed the righteousness of God,and confessed the promised Christ.
CaIn offered what?
The works of his own hands,by the sweat of his own brow.
He by his offering sought to establish his own righteousness by his religious works,by so doing he denied his sin,the righteousness of God and sought then his own glory not God's.
So then are All the religions of the world,which are of the seed of the serpent,and the root of Cain.
Historical and Biblical Christianity is the only 'offering' God will or has any respect for.He has none for any other.
But as he saidto Caine if you do well will you not be accepted. ............?and gave him time to repent.
But while he was in a decitful dialogue (ecumenical)with his brother that he suddenly rose up and slew him.
If you are a true born child of God the only good you can do is as you abide in Him and do the works of God.
All other works of the flesh are of wood hay and stubble.
A man must not only repent of his sins he must come to the place where he repents in dust and ashes of what he is.

In Christ
Gerald
 
Is it right to side with moderate Moslems?
In what?
Agree with their theology and doctrines of God?
No.
Be on their side against IS IS and the like?
Why are they not on mine?

In Christ
Gerald
 
geralduk said:
Are you not then by your own argument judging their heart to which you say no one can judge?
But is not the Word of God a "discerner and revealed of the thoughts and intents of the heart"?
And what of Paul who said the Spiritual man judges all things and is judged by none?
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Good point.

We can judge but not on the level God does. As Jesus says we can know someone by their fruits.

When we judge angels it will be with a resurrected mind / not seeing through a glass darkly.

'The spiritual man judges all things and is judged by none' needs context. As we know that we must restore one another James 5:20. I guess it is a strong OSAS argument as 'none' would include God.
 
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geralduk said:
I was not suggesting that a Moslems or a Hindu can't be saved.
I do state though they can't be saved by any other way.
Than the way all men have been saved even from Abel.
A man may believe what he likes that still does it save him,
The devil also believes.He is not saved either.
In Christ
Gerald
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Agreed. 'Our' belieivng has nothing to do with anything. We need to be given faith for a belief in Jesus and are only given that faith when we open the door to, Jesus.

Gerald you have still not grasped my point on the OT AB vs Hades. Nobody in AB was saved. Yet they were not in torment in Hades.

Salvation is a plane that takes us from the airport to heaven. We need to get to the airport.
 
KingJ said:
Agreed. 'Our' belieivng has nothing to do with anything. We need to be given faith for a belief in Jesus and are only given that faith when we open the door to, Jesus.

Gerald you have still not grasped my point on the OT AB vs Hades. Nobody in AB was saved. Yet they were not in torment in Hades.

Salvation is a plane that takes us from the airport to heaven. We need to get to the airport.
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Would you then agree that salvation is the vehicle by which we gain ACCESS to God?
 
Salvation is the vehicle by which we gain access to God?
While I am aware that the ability to express perfectly what is in the heart whether in the written for or I speech is often inadequate and sometimes impossible.
I have to question what you mean by that statement.
I will say what I mean by salvation.
It means as I am now reconciled to God I have peace with God. But it also means Now am I child of God through Jesus Christ. And I can come boldly into the presence of God.because I am now a SON. FULLY accepted shod clothed with a ring on my finger.
Through the eternal Spirit by the offering of the shed blood of Jesus.to the glory of God forever.
My salvation then is not a key to a door.
Or a means to an end as it were.
But it is of a nature that God has taken a hell deserving sinner and somehow transformed him into a child of God.
Not by some trickery or slight of hand.
Not by some psychobabble of positive thinking.
Not unrighteouslying or unjustly but in the light,of the light and by the light.
And has not only translated me from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God's dear Son.But has also translated me from one predestination to another predestination.
In truth then, I am always in the presence of God whether I am aware of it or not.
On the foundation of God's Word as to His omin presence. But also more importantly He promised I will never leave you nor forsake you "
You might ask then or reply how does that equate with we can go with boldness into the presence of God?
A reasonable question.
It means it is not geographical.
But rather while we are I this world we can at any time turn our minds and hearts to the Lord and be in the presence of God.
One day we will be geographically what we are now spiritually and more and more often phycologiclay, all in the same place.and we will with boldness enter into the presence of God geographically.
What we have learnt and found to do spiritually
In Christ
Gerald
Y
 
KingJ said:
Agreed. 'Our' belieivng has nothing to do with anything. We need to be given faith for a belief in Jesus and are only given that faith when we open the door to, Jesus.

Gerald you have still not grasped my point on the OT AB vs Hades. Nobody in AB was saved. Yet they were not in torment in Hades.

Salvation is a plane that takes us from the airport to heaven. We need to get to the airport.
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You suggest that they who were in AB which I take to be in Abrahams bosom?
We're not saved.
Yes they were but "we're not yet perfected without us" said Paul.
Who do you think Jesus preached to when he died?
They looked for to his coming and the cross.
He declared to themake who were In Abrahams bosom. Those who had believed even from Abel.
 
This Wisdom that comes down from above is "FIRST PURE", and then it is "peaceable". God's Wisdom is NOT peaceable, and then pure, but "pure" first and foremost above anything else. Anyone who thinks we are to compromise the Word of God just to keep the peace with another group of people has no clue in how the Lord God works. Jesus never ever compromised the truth for any reason what so ever, and it cost him life because of it. So did all the Apostles, they lost their life for not compromising the truth either.
If you really love someone you will speak the truth to them, even if it is to your own hurt!

Jas 3:17.. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
 
KingJ said:
Good point.

We can judge but not on the level God does. As Jesus says we can know someone by their fruits.

When we judge angels it will be with a resurrected mind / not seeing through a glass darkly.

'The spiritual man judges all things and is judged by none' needs context. As we know that we must restore one another James 5:20. I guess it is a strong OSAS argument as 'none' would include God.
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Know ye not that a farmer knows what fruit will be reaped by the seed that is sown?
How is it then you know not that there is the seed of the serpent and there is" the seed which is the Word of GOD"
Then I say that Islam is the seed of the serpent according to the Word of God and all who sow unto themselves that seed will bring forth itso fruit "after its own kind"
As I also know that the kingdom of God is like unto a sower who went to sow his seed.
That the seed of the Word of God will bring forth righteousness unto life.
And the seed of the serpent will bring forth sin corruption and death.Even as it was in the beginning.
What say ethical the scriptures?
"The body is dead because of sin " So then is the mind as good as dead.
But if the same Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell I n you he shall quicken also your mortal bodies.Then are we not also to be transformed by the renewal of our minds?
True it is we have not yet the mind to judge angels,but we are not in heaven yet!
But are we not called to make righteous judgement? Here on Earth?
You may reply that Jesus came not to judge the world but that the world through him might be saved?
Not denied.
But what said Jesus did the Holy Spirit come to do?
But to convict men of their sin,of righteousness and of judgment.
When Jesus was faced with the woman caught in the very act of adultery.
He did not excuse or deny the Holy Ness of the law.
In truth he judged both the accused and the accusers guilty under the law.
But gave each time to "consider their ways".
Those who sought to be justified by the law wasted the time given them and we're an's were according to the law and convicted by their own conciences.
The woman redeemed the time and repented and was not condemned.
In Christ
Gerald

In Christ
Gerald
 
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Major said:
Would you then agree that salvation is the vehicle by which we gain ACCESS to God?
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Definitely. Without salvation we are stuck at the airport / in AB. I also believe that once we have a boarding pass we have a boarding pass. IE Nobody in AB could go to Hades.
 
KingJ said:
Definitely. Without salvation we are stuck at the airport / in AB. I also believe that once we have a boarding pass we have a boarding pass. IE Nobody in AB could go to Hades.
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Sorry I'm having a hard time following. Are you saying that there is an in between heaven and hell?
 
KingJ said:
Definitely. Without salvation we are stuck at the airport / in AB. I also believe that once we have a boarding pass we have a boarding pass. IE Nobody in AB could go to Hades.
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KingJ said:
Definitely. Without salvation we are stuck at the airport / in AB. I also believe that once we have a boarding pass we have a boarding pass. IE Nobody in AB could go to Hades.
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If you are not saved you are in he'll, that is the teaching of the Lord himself.
When he spoke of the rich man and Lazerus.
While Lazerus was found in the bosom of Abraham.the rich man found himself in he'll and in torment.
Before the death and resurrection of the Lord all who's faith was in the promise of the coming Christ, they who died in faith were to be found in the bosom of Abraham, who Paul teaches "were not made perfect without us"
They who die in the faith after the death and resurrection are absent from the body present with the LOrd, you might even argue in the bosom of the Lord until the redemption of the body "yet to be revealed"
Those who were in the bosom of Abraham are now perfected with us and so are present with the Lord also.
There is no halfway house, a pugertory or any such place,if you die in your sins you are lost forever and will find yourself in hell in torment awaiting the final judgement
In Christ
Gerald
 
Klub said:
Is Islam evil? Yes, but so is your neighbor who watches porn when his wife is out of town.
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Wait, don't you see what you did there?
"Is Islam evil?"--you're not talking about a person, you're talking about an ideology.
"...but so is your neighbor..." -- now you're talking about an individual, not an ideology.

The individual may not be evil. The individual may be trying in his flesh to be "good," or he may even by like Job or the Greeks who sought the "unknown God"--they may actually be enabled by God to accept the gospel but have never yet heard the true gospel.
 
KingJ said:
Note the second line to James 4:8 ''Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded''.
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Just to be sure...we all know James is talking to people who profess Christianity, right?
 
RDKirk said:
Wait, don't you see what you did there?
"Is Islam evil?"--you're not talking about a person, you're talking about an ideology.
"...but so is your neighbor..." -- now you're talking about an individual, not an ideology.

The individual may not be evil. The individual may be trying in his flesh to be "good," or he may even by like Job or the Greeks who sought the "unknown God"--they may actually be enabled by God to accept the gospel but have never yet heard the true gospel.
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If a man does not know Christ, they only have wickedness. If you are trying to be "good" in the flesh, you are still evil compared to God. Job did not seek an "unknown god" like the Romans did.

I agree that a lost person can have God work on their hearts, however until the Lord has made him a new creation, and changed your corrupt heart, he is still wicked and lost.
 
Klub said:
If a man does not know Christ, they only have wickedness. If you are trying to be "good" in the flesh, you are still evil compared to God. Job did not seek an "unknown god" like the Romans did.
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How did Job know who God was? Job was not a child of Abraham. Job had no special revelation. When God spoke to the children of Abraham, He spoke of the things He'd done for their lineage; when God spoke of Himself to Job in terms of His creation--constellations and great creatures.

He is the Maker and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south. -- Job 9

Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth? -- Job 38

Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. -- Job 40

Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook or tie down its tongue with a rope? -- Job 41

This is what is spoke of in Psalm 19: The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. That's why I believe Job discovered God in accordance with Psalm 19, through the "testimony" of creation. But Paul indicates that the Greeks who sought the "unknown god" were doing the same thing. Moreover:

He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. -- Acts 17

Only for that reason can Paul then charge them and hold them to account for refusing to acknowledge the God they could see in creation, just as Job did, just as the Greeks who sought the "unknown God" did:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

God does not play "stump the dummy" with man. God does not hold man accountable for something He never gave man the ability to achieve. If man is without excuse when he refuses to acknowledge God in creation, then the man who does acknowledge God in creation does have an excuse. Every man has the opportunity of recognizing God purely through nature and achieving the same "covenant unto himself" (Romans 2:14) that Job did. But for sure, "having an excuse" is not the same thing as being justified.

Most people believe Job is saved, but the question is: How, exactly, is Job saved? What is the soteriological theory of Job's salvation?
 
RDKirk said:
How did Job know who God was? Job was not a child of Abraham. Job had no special revelation. When God spoke to the children of Abraham, He spoke of the things He'd done for their lineage; when God spoke of Himself to Job in terms of His creation--constellations and great creatures.

He is the Maker and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south. -- Job 9

Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth? -- Job 38

Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. -- Job 40

Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook or tie down its tongue with a rope? -- Job 41

This is what is spoke of in Psalm 19: The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. That's why I believe Job discovered God in accordance with Psalm 19, through the "testimony" of creation. But Paul indicates that the Greeks who sought the "unknown god" were doing the same thing. Moreover:

He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. -- Acts 17

Only for that reason can Paul then charge them and hold them to account for refusing to acknowledge the God they could see in creation, just as Job did, just as the Greeks who sought the "unknown God" did:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

God does not play "stump the dummy" with man. God does not hold man accountable for something He never gave man the ability to achieve. If man is without excuse when he refuses to acknowledge God in creation, then the man who does acknowledge God in creation does have an excuse. Every man has the opportunity of recognizing God purely through nature and achieving the same "covenant unto himself" (Romans 2:14) that Job did. But for sure, "having an excuse" is not the same thing as being justified.

Most people believe Job is saved, but the question is: How, exactly, is Job saved? What is the soteriological theory of Job's salvation?
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The soteriological theory of Jobs salvation is no theory at all or speculation, but the same throughout all of history.. And the same for every sinner born into this world regardless of where you are or what religious background u hold to. And that is, by the free mercy of Gods grace in the righteousness of Christ alone. Salvation and righteousness belongs to God alone. Grace and life is in Christ alone. The book of Job brings out Gods Sovereignty over all creation. His supreme will that directs all things. It properly shows where man belongs, in the dust. It cuts to the heart of mans sinful depravity and destroys mans self righteous pride and will. The book of Job shows how Job, through the brokenness of his own sin, although in rt standing with God, glorified God for His mercy. He was resting in Gods mercy and acknowledged He (God) alone is righteous. This is evidence of a man saved by Gods grace and mercy! And shows how God is Sovereign over Satan, man and all of creation, to glorify Himself. His Holy will stands supreme. And through Jobs calamity, he realized this and was faithful to the end; thanx be to Gods Sovereign mercy and love He chose to show in Job. So where is man for him to boast in anything? The more we created sinful beings seek to credit our desires, actions, works, and will to our acceptance towards God, the further we fall from grace and the righteousness of faith in Christ. Regardless of how sincere a Muslim is, he is still lost and dead in his sin and under Gods wrath. Christ, who is fully God and Supreme creator can only be the assurance of ones despair over their sin.
 
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