Is Jesus "in" The Godhead Or Is The Godhead "in Jesus" ?

Brother Paul said:
So doctrinally you are a Jehovah's Witness correct?
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What? How do you get that from those scriptures I posted? JW? That is a good one.

I think JW's believe that Jesus is a created being.

What Jesus say?

Give me Father the same Glory you gave me before the foundation of the World.

does not sound like a created being to me. Who Jesus say had the authority to give him Glory?

I hope I am not missing something here, Scripture only on my part. If I am off scripturally after so many scripturul evidence to show what I believe then give them to me for consideration.

your Awesome Paul, very fun to talk with, but JW? There's a thought.

:)
 
thanks...I did not get that from any of your posts on other threads so it was making me curious...they see the Father as the only true God and the son as a created god you are correct but they (seemingly like you) do not see the Holy Spirit as God abd believe the Son is subordinate to the Father (not only in the incarnation but in nature as well)...

I believe Acts 5 does teach the Holy Spirit is God and when Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13 "Now the Lord is that Spirit" that He is saying YHVH is the Spirit...so if YHVH is the Father, and the Bible teaches YHVH is the Word/Son, and that YHVH is the Spirit, what else can I conclude save that YHVH is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit...

So I will ask the same question I asked David...YHVH is speaking in Isaiah 48 and then in verse 16 YHVH says, "And YHVH-Sabaoth has sent me to you, with His Spirit"....what does this mean and who are the distinctions GOd has made in His word only chapters after declaring Himself to be YHVH and there is none else?

Paul
 
Well, I understand you believe by Acts 5 the Holy Spirit is God the Father.

I already explained though.

You have to take into account ALL Scriptures.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

If the Holy Spirit is actually God (The Father) Then the Holy Spirit would speak of his own. He would not just speak what he hears.

They said you lied to the Holy Ghost........... Then said you lied to God.

Once again, the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit sent to earth. He represents God, and only Speaks what he hears. Lying to Him is lying To God.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

The Father crucified the son. (Isa 53) God the Father provided the Salvation through the Son. God the Father is creator and Jesus the son.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

We know Jesus can't be the Father, the Father taught him. The Father gave him glory before the foundation of the World. We know Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the World. He can't be the Father.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

God sent his son in these last days to speak to us His Word. Can't be the father.

The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus, who is not the Father, and the Holy Spirit can't be the Father as He does not speak of his own.

How many scriptures we need here?

Is the issue having trouble not making Jesus creator or Father and making him some lesser being? He is the son, said he was the son, and would be no different than any son. It don't make him lesser, it just means he has a Father.
 
Well, I understand you believe by Acts 5the Holy Spirit is God the Father.

Michael I never said this or implied it...God is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, but the Father is neither the Son or the Spirit, the Son is neither the Father or the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father or the Son...As the one and only God (and there is none other) there is only one majesty, substance, essence, and nature...as the three He is in three distinct hypostases (in the Greek), personae (in the Latin), persons (in English) and this is not modalism because one does not precede the other and neither are they three Gods (as in tritheism)...the Bible says there is only one YHVH (translated Lord)...it describes YHVH as the Father (Lord), it describes YHVH as the Word/Son (Lord), and describes YHVH as the Holy Spirit (Lord)...but multiple references to differences in ministries and purpose, as well as subject/object dialogues reveal the distinctions of person (hypostasis/personae)...but one Lord not three. Athanasius said, "The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated, but not three uncreated but one. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God." This is the trinitarian position not the oneness position. How this is so is the mystery...

In His love

brother Paul
 
Brother Paul said:
Well, I understand you believe by Acts 5the Holy Spirit is God the Father.

Michael I never said this or implied it...God is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, but the Father is neither the Son or the Spirit, the Son is neither the Father or the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father or the Son...As the one and only God (and there is none other) there is only one majesty, substance, essence, and nature...as the three He is in three distinct hypostases (in the Greek), personae (in the Latin), persons (in English) and this is not modalism because one does not precede the other and neither are they three Gods (as in tritheism)...the Bible says there is only one YHVH (translated Lord)...it describes YHVH as the Father (Lord), it describes YHVH as the Word/Son (Lord), and describes YHVH as the Holy Spirit (Lord)...but multiple references to differences in ministries and purpose, as well as subject/object dialogues reveal the distinctions of person (hypostasis/personae)...but one Lord not three. Athanasius said, "The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated, but not three uncreated but one. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God." This is the trinitarian position not the oneness position. How this is so is the mystery...

In His love

brother Paul
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Sounds more like Oneness to me. All 3 eternal, all 3 uncreated, that don't make them just one.

If there is one, you just don't give all things to yourself, that would be Oneness or Modelist who want to be trinity but really mix oneness up in there.

3 Bare record........... That is 3 different records, but the 3 are 1. Still 3 but they are one.

Husband and wife 2, but really just one flesh. Bible also says that is a mystery.

Two mediators, God is not mediating with Himself because he said a mediator is of two. One God, One Lord. If there is just one, then there is no mediator and we are in trouble.

Trinity keeps 3 to satisfy Scripture. I have never seen any original creed attempt to explain how they are really 1. Modelist attempt to explain it with scripture.

Oneness really messes it up big time.

When you go to say there is just one............ then someone don't get a throne, Holy Spirit does not have a throne. There are two thrones but they that sit on them are one.

There are always 3, but they are 1............. That is the mystery. There is always a husband and wife, but they are 1 flesh. Also a mystery.

There has to be 3 until the mystery makes them one or it just does not work.

That was the mystery part, but it never denied there was always 3. It just said the 3 are 1.

they are all God, of God.

Protecting Monotheism came much later. Trinity creed came to protect the identity of Jesus.

If you believe in the mystery, then by your own belief no explanation needs given. The mystery is the explanation.

For me, I don't have a issue at all believing the Son is like the Father. We have examples of that on earth. God can't be tempted by evil but Jesus was tempted in all ways.

Jesus was still the son of God on earth. Nothing had changed just because he was stuck in a flesh body. He still depended on the Father, so that is two.

They both can be Lord, both God.

We are considered as god, we are his offspring and each seed produces after it's own Kind. There is only one father though and Creator. Jesus said there is only one you call father.

Just way to many scriptures I have to ignore to go for this monotheism gig.

If you say it's a mystery, then good enough.

I don't mind Trinity concept as long as it does not start sounding like Modelism and I definitely do not like the Oneness doctrine.

There are 3. These 3 are 1, it's a mystery.

What more can you say?
 
Good enough my brother, I am sure on almost all other points we would be in agreement (as we would be with brother David)...it would be great to hear from others and see how they understand this...
 
Brother Paul said:
Good enough my brother, I am sure on almost all other points we would be in agreement (as we would be with brother David)...it would be great to hear from others and see how they understand this...
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yep, it would......... I suppose. Most think they believe in Trinity but do not. Hard core Trinitarians get mad if you even suggest Jesus is the Father, Nope, He is the 2nd person in the Godhead, not His Father.

Modelist just mix and match and model both doctrines.

Oneness thinks Jesus is 1/3 of some god system.

It can be confusing.

Hence, I just post scripture, let them draw their own conclusion.

The History though we can thank the Catholic Church. They came against the pagan mixing of the bible with those from the Library of Alexandria. Kind of glad they did.

could you imagine how hard it would be to study God's word back then with half books and no computer to instantly reference a scripture? I can remember the days when I had to use the concordance. Slow............slow.............slow.......

e-sword in seconds.

blessings.
 
I have never heard of ANY oneness believers that believe Jesus is 1/3 of some god system.
Jesus IS God..........
Where does the Bible use the terms 1st, 2nd, and 3rd persons as in relating to God ?
Let's see some verses in God's word with Jesus, the Apostles or even the Patriarch of old teaching the trinity.
Where did this word "trinity" come from ? Are you using some new Bible ?
You can sound as smug and intellectual as you like but, the trinity is not a Bible word, nor is there three persons in God, or God in three persons.
 
Brother David said:
I have never heard of ANY oneness believers that believe Jesus is 1/3 of some god system.
Jesus IS God..........
Where does the Bible use the terms 1st, 2nd, and 3rd persons as in relating to God ?
Let's see some verses in God's word with Jesus, the Apostles or even the Patriarch of old teaching the trinity.
Where did this word "trinity" come from ? Are you using some new Bible ?
You can sound as smug and intellectual as you like but, the trinity is not a Bible word, nor is there three persons in God, or God in three persons.
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What are you on about David? I don't get you, you sound sound sensible in a lot of post then it's like a confused version of your self comes out talking about trinity and oneness

We know your Oneness, we get it. Doubt if I can help you fix that.

Now lets get a few things clear again. Just to help you.

There are ZERO scriptures that make Jesus the 2nd person of the Godhead. It's make believe OK. Zero Scriptures that say only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are part of the Godhead. We are part of the Godhead bodily, we will also be running things.

Just to refresh your memory. Oneness believes that there is ONE GOD.
However, the bible mentions a son and the Holy Spirit.

So, Oneness has to say there is ONE GOD who is 3. They use the term Manifest in 3 equal parts or has 3 personalities.

Much like what you said about you can be a Father and a son. Well as a father you don't act the same way as you would being a son.

So we call it what it is. ONE GOD, that manifest in 3 different rolls means each is 1/3 of something.

So, Oneness believes Jesus is 1/3 of some God machine, as that is one of the personalities of God. Jesus was God the Father manifest in the flesh. "God Incarnate" Those are Oneness terms.

I find it hard to believe you forget simple math when talking about bible stuff. That can't be possible. Religion does that to people, they forget all the common sense things they learned.

1/3+1/3+1/3=Whole or 1 ONENESS

1+1+1 = just 1 Trinity

It's not that complicated.

I personally refuse to forget how to do math even when it comes to scripture so I don't buy into either of them.
 
Sorry....you're wrong again THREE is not a significant number for God, One is though.
God is ONE........The term "Father" is that He is father of all creation and father of born again believers.
Son refers to the God man (God was in Christ ....remember?) God in Flesh.
Holy Ghost is God "IN" us the hope of glory.

In your "trinity" Michael, are god #1, god #2, and god # 3 equal ?
 
Brother David said:
Sorry....you're wrong again THREE is not a significant number for God, One is though.
God is ONE........The term "Father" is that He is father of all creation and father of born again believers.
Son refers to the God man (God was in Christ ....remember?) God in Flesh.
Holy Ghost is God "IN" us the hope of glory.

In your "trinity" Michael, are god #1, god #2, and god # 3 equal ?
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If not mistaken, Michael only has God 1, God 2, (the Holy Spirit may or may not be God...but if so then yes, three separate Gods in one corporate unity. Not a trinitarian but tritheistic explanation)
 
Brother Paul said:
If not mistaken, Michael only has God 1, God 2, (the Holy Spirit may or may not be God...but if so then yes, three separate Gods in one corporate unity. Not a trinitarian but tritheistic explanation)
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That would be correct. Jesus with the Father from forever. That would be Polytheism. Paul said to us there are two...... Father and Son.
Scripture only.

The Holy Spirit by the Greek definition of Theos would also be considered a god. So would Satan and us.

Oneness David has to believe there is a son and a Father.

1+1=2

It's the Antichrist that denies a Father and a Son. That would be in John.

So, Oneness believers forget how to add and just come up with 1 but since there has to be a son thrown in there because there is scripture in the way, then it's still one..

But............... It's 1 God with multiple personalities.
or

1/3 of each making ONE.

See David, If I took you in a room and there were two chairs and a person was sitting in each chair, then I asked how many people are there, you would hopefully tell me 2 people.

If I took you David to the Throne room in Heaven and showed you the Fathers throne by which he sits and the Lord Jesus throne and then I asked the same question. How many people (God's) you see, then because of religion you would say...

duhh.... duhhh.. ummmm ummm lets see 1+1 is ummm duhhh... I count ONE.

That is what religion does to people.
 
MichaelH said:
That would be correct. Jesus with the Father from forever. That would be Polytheism. Paul said to us there are two...... Father and Son.
Scripture only.

The Holy Spirit by the Greek definition of Theos would also be considered a god. So would Satan and us.

Oneness David has to believe there is a son and a Father.

1+1=2

It's the Antichrist that denies a Father and a Son. That would be in John.

So, Oneness believers forget how to add and just come up with 1 but since there has to be a son thrown in there because there is scripture in the way, then it's still one..

But............... It's 1 God with multiple personalities.
or

1/3 of each making ONE.

See David, If I took you in a room and there were two chairs and a person was sitting in each chair, then I asked how many people are there, you would hopefully tell me 2 people.

If I took you David to the Throne room in Heaven and showed you the Fathers throne by which he sits and the Lord Jesus throne and then I asked the same question. How many people (God's) you see, then because of religion you would say...

duhh.... duhhh.. ummmm ummm lets see 1+1 is ummm duhhh... I count ONE.

That is what religion does to people.
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Do you even understand these things? Do you really think there is a room greater than God in which He dwells? My oh My...!
 
Brother Paul said:
Do you even understand these things? Do you really think there is a room greater than God in which He dwells? My oh My...!
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Let's do this.

I'll post all the scriptures where both Father and "Son are mentioned.

Then you post all your scriptures where there is just one in Heaven.

We will count the scriptures, by the number of Witnesses of the Holy Spirit.

You win, I'll change to what you believe. Got a deal?


You see Paul, I don't think of my sons as some lesser things. Not sure how you would feel about your own children but I assume you would put them first before you.

The Father is not alien Paul, We think like Him because He made us like Him.

It's religion that thinks If there are really a Real Father and a Real Son then one has to be lesser.

We don't even think that about our own children.

So, lets start counting up scriptures.

I back everything I believe with Scripture. You say I am not understanding that scripture, I have another then.

I'll get my list ready.

Be blessed.
 
MichaelH said:
Let's do this.

I'll post all the scriptures where both Father and "Son are mentioned.

Then you post all your scriptures where there is just one in Heaven.

We will count the scriptures, by the number of Witnesses of the Holy Spirit.

You win, I'll change to what you believe. Got a deal?


You see Paul, I don't think of my sons as some lesser things. Not sure how you would feel about your own children but I assume you would put them first before you.

The Father is not alien Paul, We think like Him because He made us like Him.

It's religion that thinks If there are really a Real Father and a Real Son then one has to be lesser.

We don't even think that about our own children.

So, lets start counting up scriptures.

I back everything I believe with Scripture. You say I am not understanding that scripture, I have another then.

I'll get my list ready.

Be blessed.
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Odd how this totally avoids the issue mentioned (is there something or someplace greater or larger than God which contains Him? Point...the Throne Room is there for the sake of manifesting Himself to His angels and children)....Though God is much greater than that area (the throne room in heaven) in which He allows His presence to be experienced by us lesser spirit beings, the Father and the Lamb are present because the Son is though still fully God also a glorified man. His presence as the Lamb there, does not take away from His ability to also be omnipresent and even in many regards totally trnscendent. The one God can be in any, or as many, "form(s)" as He wills without taking away from His essential singularity or His omnipresence. He can be fully God, THE Eternal, while also being present everywhere in creation, as well as manifest in a form or forms simultaneously without separating His nature or substance. Therefore "If there are really a Real Father and a Real Son then one has to be lesser", does not apply when speaking of God. This is only necessary of bios life. The Father is unknown to man (John 5:37) and is made known (declared) by the Son...the Father is all God is apart from Creation and is unknowable save through the Son. The Son is the same as God's Self-revelation to humankind and in all cases when God is seen or heard (audibly) it is the Word/Son who is experienced. He is God "with" His creation. The Holy Spirit is also the same God, IN His creation.
 
the Father and the Lamb are present because the Son is though still fully God also a glorified man.
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I understood half of what You said. I assume you don't want to match scriptures with me though. I don't blame you.

Your also missing a whole lot of scriptures for what you said up there.

Jesus a glorified Man?

It almost sounds like Jesus got his position by being the crucified lamb of God and some man that got a new body.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus talking to the Father here. While I was with them in the World. It sounds like He just came to visit Earth here.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Once again it really looks like God sent his son who is Not His own father.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So Paul, Jesus is claiming that His Father gave him glory before the foundation of the World.

Father gives Son Glory means 2 Gods here.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Father Loves son, which is important to him that His Father Loves him or he would not have mentioned it.

1 Father and 1 Son....... 2 Gods

So is Jesus confused here or we having issues with simple addition. Which one is it?

This is before the World was even made................................. Father and Son.

I don't expect to be able to teach you how to Add, but I don't understand when I am looking at something called scripture that you could fault what i believe. I don't get that.
 
As for a list (which is meaningless) I would start with these…

  1. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth " Genesis 2:24
  2. "there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
  3. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
  4. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
  5. YHVH is speaking and says, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
  6. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God (singular), Yahweh is one [echad…a Unity]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
  7. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
  8. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
  9. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
  10. "You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
  11. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
  12. "You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
  13. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
  14. "You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
  15. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
  16. "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
  17. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
  18. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
  19. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
  20. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
  21. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
  22. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
  23. "And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
  24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
  25. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5
  26. "But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8
  27. "Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10
  28. ""The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29
  29. "you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44
  30. "I and the Father are one [hen]." John 10:30
  31. "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3
  32. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]" John 17:22
  33. "since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
  34. "to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27
  35. "there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
  36. "yet for us (real Christians) there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6 He is the visible image of the invisible God
  37. "Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20 (the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father but as God there is only one.
  38. "There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
  39. "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17
  40. "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16
  41. "For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
  42. "You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
  43. "For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
  44. "the only [monos] God our Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25
So there you go for starters…

Scriptures which mention the Father and the Son do not negate the one and only God they confirm His omnipresent eternal nature…

Jesus a glorified Man? Yup! While fully God AND fully man, after the resurrection His human nature was glorified and is now capable of spanning both realms the eternal and the temporal where before glorification the flesh (which was of the first Adam) could not enter into the essence of God's presence and not be consumed...

Brother Paul
 
None of those scriptures say there is just a Father.

many more say there is a Son and Father.

How can you say Jesus be with the Father in the Genesis account but there only be ONE GOD?

There is none like God the Father, even Jesus said the Father is Greater than I and He said that after Being with His father before the World was made.

The father crucified the son.

The father provided salvation.

This does not erase His son though.

There are TWO............
Way to many scriptures say there are two.

so if you just want to say it's a mystery to make one...... then so be it. That is what Trinity Doctrine does anyway.
 
MichaelH said:
None of those scriptures say there is just a Father.

many more say there is a Son and Father.

How can you say Jesus be with the Father in the Genesis account but there only be ONE GOD?

There is none like God the Father, even Jesus said the Father is Greater than I and He said that after Being with His father before the World was made.

The father crucified the son.

The father provided salvation.

This does not erase His son though.

There are TWO............
Way to many scriptures say there are two.

so if you just want to say it's a mystery to make one...... then so be it. That is what Trinity Doctrine does anyway.
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The "son" was not with the Father before the world began, the Word was "...with God, and the Word was God."
The Father did not crucify the son: the slaves (of sin) of the son of perdition did the crucifying.
Yes there are two: the Father, who is the actual creator of the universe; and the son, who the Father's spoken Word clothed in humanity: "...through the veil, that is to say, his flesh...".
There is no mystery to the gospel, it is hid "...only to the ones who are lost."
 
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