I agree, thanks, that is nearly similar to what my opinion is....
Is Mary the New Eve?
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I agree, thanks, that is nearly similar to what my opinion is....
While I think one could argue the Church is the new Eve -- the Church is the Bride of Christ after all, doesn't it still leave a bit out in disconnecting from the first Eve? For instance, Eve's disobedience and Mary's obedience, the enmities between woman and Satan, etc. St. Irenaeus, around 180, wrote something I think was rather insightful; he wrote "The knot that was done by Eve's disobedience was undone by Mary's obedience."
Adam and Eve's "no" to God resonated with us because it is now part of our souls -- their "no" is stuck on us. Through Jesus' "yes" to the Father, and beforehand, Mary's "yes" to Him in order for there to be a new (or second) Adam, their "yes" resonated with us.
This is why, while on one hand, I can understand and even partially agree with the Church being the new Eve, I believe it is far more aligning that Mary is the new (or second) Eve, because she did precisely what Eve could not -- she said "Yes."
And I would agree 100% with you.
I wouldn't say that Mary is somehow anti-eve... as Mary is declared to be blessed above women.... Jesus was the fulfillment of God's PROMISE to Eve back in Genesis...
But... I kinda get worried when we start straying into this idea of Mary being "The New Eve".... Especially if Jesus is the New Adam.....
That would make the relationship incest..... and makes Christianity basically mirror the Babylonian myth of Semiramis(Ishtar), Nimrod, and Tammuz....
But... I kinda get worried when we start straying into this idea of Mary being "The New Eve".... Especially if Jesus is the New Adam.....
That would make the relationship incest..... and makes Christianity basically mirror the Babylonian myth of Semiramis(Ishtar), Nimrod, and Tammuz....
It shouldn't be taken crassly in saying Jesus and Mary had an incestuous relationship. I'd call that pretty blasphemous as anyone would in fact. Jesus and Mary being the New Adam and the New Eve (or Second Adam and Second Eve) are comparisons and contrasts so there are similarities and dissimilarities. For example, the comparison of Christ to Adam is it is man made anew, to live entirely without the fall from God, but the dissimilarity is that Adam wasn't divine while Christ was.
In fact, I think the substance of their bonds along with their parallel actions hold more weight than whether the nature of their relationships were identical or not.
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Exactly why the church being the last "Eve" works better than Mary in that role. Mary did not do what Eve did. But the church has been disobedient and often fooled by Satan. And her offspring of denominations producing good and bad.
The body of the Church, the people,we who sin, I don't think could be. The concept of A new Eve is to look at what was offered and corrected. We as the body of the Church never undid what Eve did. We live with it. With Mary, her saying yes was the antidote to Eve's no. That's where the Early Church came up with this concept of Mary being the New Eve.
But, I do think suggesting it is the Church (the magisterium, the spirit of the Church), isn't a bad a horrible concept in the slightest. The Church is the bride of Christ, we say yes to Christ's gift, etc. I think there's some flaws it limiting it to the church, but it's not silly.
You know... Within the context of this digression from the original discussion....
Here's a fun rabbit trail.... Do a concordance search on Marriages.....
For your pleasure:
John the Baptist declared himself a "Friend of the Bridegroom"
Jesus declared his disciples "Friends of the Bridegroom"
In Luke 12 (In the Temple in Jerusalem, before declaring the destruction of Jerusalem)
Jesus talks about the Men being Servants of a Master who went away to a Wedding Feast... and that the servants would be rewarded for diligently keeping the house and being ready....
In Matt 22 (In the temple, talking openly to Faithful Jews)
The parable of the Wedding Feast - where the King had a wedding feast for his son and everybody INVITED begged off - and then killed the servants sent to notify the invitees....
But.. That Strangers would be compelled to participate in their place....
In Matt 25 (In private, to the disciples)
The parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.. Where some were ready for the Bridegroom.. and others were not...
Revelation 19
The Church is declared the Bride of Christ
Here's a fun rabbit trail.... Do a concordance search on Marriages.....
For your pleasure:
John the Baptist declared himself a "Friend of the Bridegroom"
Jesus declared his disciples "Friends of the Bridegroom"
In Luke 12 (In the Temple in Jerusalem, before declaring the destruction of Jerusalem)
Jesus talks about the Men being Servants of a Master who went away to a Wedding Feast... and that the servants would be rewarded for diligently keeping the house and being ready....
In Matt 22 (In the temple, talking openly to Faithful Jews)
The parable of the Wedding Feast - where the King had a wedding feast for his son and everybody INVITED begged off - and then killed the servants sent to notify the invitees....
But.. That Strangers would be compelled to participate in their place....
In Matt 25 (In private, to the disciples)
The parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.. Where some were ready for the Bridegroom.. and others were not...
Revelation 19
The Church is declared the Bride of Christ
Indeed. The Bible made it very clear that the Church his the bride of Christ.
So far then, as of right now, we have only conjecture, opinions and tradition from men and not one single Bible verse to confirm the question of......
"Is Mary the New Eve."
Wouldn't one think that if it was really true then God would have placed something in His Word to confirm what we seem to be wanting it to say???
All of that is true but none of those verses confirm the question asked.
Indeed, there ought to be Scripture to support this.
This was a response I made in the previous thread -- it's more fitting in here. This is what I previously said...
1: When it comes to the enmity of Satan, in Genesis 3:15, the mention of the mother of God is referenced: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. This is partly why Mary is sometimes depicted as stomping on the head of a serpent.
2: In Isaiah 7:14, we know Christ was born of a virgin.
3: We know through Luke 1:26-28 that Mary was full of grace even before the incarnation: in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
4: Mary wasn't simply a woman who had Jesus, she was set apart from all women through the grace of God. In Luke 1:41-42, it says this: When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
5: We also know through Scripture that Mary is the mother of God -- which I suspect we're all on board with, but it deserves mentioning: And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)
6: We don't regard Mary as not needing a savior -- we know she, as a human, was just as much in need of one as anyone. We see this is Luke 1:47: and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
7: Mary's role has always continued as a being blessed among all women. It says in Luke 1:48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
8: We understand that Mary's suffering had a unity with Christ's holy suffering on the cross. In Luke 2:34-35, it says and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."
9: Mary's role isn't to direct glory to her, but to direct glory to her son. In John 2:3-5 says When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you. This is a perfect illustration of what Mary is to us.
10: Spiritually speaking, because Christ's Church make up His body (Romans 12:4-5), we regard Mary as our mother--not in a way of giving her divinity, but in recognizing Christ's divinity. In Revelations 12, where it talks about the Woman and the Child, it points out the those in fellowship with Christ as the offspring--Revelation 12:17: Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. This also goes back to the Woman still at enmity with Satan.
11: As Christ is the New Covenant, we recognize Mary as the ark of the New Covenant. In Revelation 11:19-12:1 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
So again, if we don't agree on translation (as I suspect we won't--that's very much what it ties down to), then that is absolutely fine. Nonetheless, that is the Scriptural position Catholics and Orthodox and others have in regards to Mary, why we honor her, love her, and look to her intercession in order to become fully united with God -- God is the ends and Mary is a means.
Just to make sure we're all on the same page, this response was never intended to point at anyone and say "you're wrong and here's why" -- rather, it was intended to offer some insight on how we view Mary. My hope is that even if you still disagree, you'll know precisely what it is you disagree with. And further, I hope this creates a better relationship as we can understand one another a bit clearer when addressing something this controversial.
I think I don't see anything in this list to show why the Catholic church considers Mary the "new Eve" from scripture. This list only details the Catholic church's stance on why they elevate Mary to the position she holds in their eyes. I disagree with this list and its reasoning.
Lys~ Can you give Biblical context to show why you consider Mary the "new Eve"?
And also, regarding your item #1, you mentioned that verse was partly why Mary was sometimes shown stomping on the head of a snake. I'm curious as to what is the rest of the reason is for showing her that way?
I would like to point out that Genesis says the seed of Mary will bruise the head of the serpent, not that Mary will bruise the head of the serpent. Hence, if she is being portrayed that way in RCC icons, it is an inaccurate portrayal; and I suspect this inaccurate portrayal is deliberate to support the idea that she should be elevated in the minds of Christians.
Mary is not referenced here as the mother of God either. This verse speaks of her seed being in enmity with the serpent, but it does not state specifically that the seed is God. We know Jesus was both fully divine and fully human (dual nature), but Mary is mother of only the human side of Jesus. His Father in Heaven via the Holy Spirit, carries the full burden of providing the divinity of Jesus. Hence, Mary is not the mother of God.
I have other disagreements with the list, but I'll stop now and try to stick to the original topic.
If you're looking for the term "New Eve" in the Bible, you won't find it. The term itself came from St Justin Martyr in the 2nd century. The term isn't any sort of dogmatic position, but the substance itself is, a way of commenting on the Scriptures. Justin Martyr was a student of Paul, and had a very interesting way of illustrating his Apologies. This was one way he did when he wrote about Mary. It's a statement of Mary's importance -- that Mary was obedient and said Yes to God, as a sort of antidote to Eve's No.
The passages I gave offered support of Mary importance and role.
Indeed, the seed of the Woman (Mary) will bruise the head of the serpent. Which isn't false. But two ancient translations, the Latin Vulgate (revised by St. Jerome) and the ancient Coptic version read, “She shall crush your head.” Current editions of the Bible in modern languages, translations from the original languages, all follow the translation “He shall crush.” It's not a statement of going over the Son's head, but that Eve's temptation of the serpent is corrected through the Gospel, and this beginning with Mary's obedience to God.
Although, and I don't mean this as you being some sort of heretic -- I'm not getting that vibe from you -- i suspect you are a devoted Christian and really seek God's truth as we all are here -- to believe in Christ's divinity, we have to acknowledge that Mary is the mother of God. Granted, she is not the biological mother of God, that wouldn't make any sense since God has no beginning or end. But God chose Mary specifically as His mother as He was made flesh. And you're right in saying Christ's divinity didn't come from Mary -- it didn't. In fact, His flesh didn't even come from man's seed. But because we know Christ was God made flesh, it follows that Mary is the mother of God. Elizabeth said in Luke 1:43 "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?" We divide Christ from the Father, but we can't divide Christ from God.
Catholics (and not just Catholics, but also Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, and other groups) recognize Mary this way through Scripture, but also through old commentary of the Scriptures dating as far back as the when the Scripture writings were completed (around 97 AD).
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Lys~ you keep saying that Mary, through her obedience, corrected the failure of Eve's disobedience. I don't see that at all. Yes, Mary was obedient and willing to accept the prophecy of the angel Gabriel (Gabriel was NOT requesting Mary's cooperation. Gabriel was stating a prophecy shortly to come to pass). However, Mary (because she was merely human) was also DISobedient in her life, I'm sure, because she admitted to needing a Savior to redeem her from her sins. So, if Mary was guilty of sin in the same way as Eve, how could Mary "undo the knot of sin" as you quote an early church father as saying. I'm sure after the fall in Genesis, that there were other times where Eve was obedient to God (as we all are at times), however her obedience did not undo any knots of sin. Neither can Mary's obedience undo any knots of sin, IMO, based on what I read in the Scriptures.
Lys~ I have not been looking for the term "new Eve" in the Bible. I've been looking for that concept through exegesis, but failing miserably. Sorry...just don't see it...even with your explanations...but I'm not ready to give up yet.
When I say Mary's obedience, I am speaking in regards to her saying Yes to God's request of her to be the mother of our Lord. Her sinning or not sinning is for a different thread -- one of which we've had many.
I suspect you won't find it either. Let's be honest and admit that no one here who holds a specific position is willing to change their minds on this--certainly not overnight anyway. For most people, with something like this, it usually takes months or years. It took me about 3 or 4 years. I used to hold the position that there was no New Eve.
My intention was to explain the rationale of this. The idea of Mary being the New Eve didn't come out of thin air, but through Scriptural interpretation that dated back to the early Church (you'll find many of the Apostles' students' writings on this and it continued on up until about the 17th century when there was more divide post reformation on this subject).
I don't expect you to believe me one bit...actually, you may even take me as a heretic, but the point of my defense wasn't to try to get you to say "Oh...that makes sense...I guess she was the New Eve," but instead to say "Well, I don't hold that position, but I now see where this notion comes from."
Yes, I understand Mary's obedience to that prophecy (I still say it was not a request). However, it was not HER obedience that corrected the knot of sin. It was the PERFECT obedience of Christ ONLY. Do you agree?