You are successful then. Now I do see where this notion comes from. Thank you, Lys, for your time and effort.
Is Mary the New Eve?
- Thread starter Major
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You are successful then. Now I do see where this notion comes from. Thank you, Lys, for your time and effort.
This is exactly the direction I was going while catching up on the posts.
@Lysander
So again, if we don't agree on translation (as I suspect we won't--that's very much what it ties down to), then that is absolutely fine. Nonetheless, that is the Scriptural position Catholics and Orthodox and others have in regards to Mary, why we honor her, love her, and look to her intercession in order to become fully united with God -- God is the ends and Mary is a means.
Two questions
1. Is it the catholic position that without Mary one cannot be fully United with God?
2. We discussed this briefly earlier but I must come back to it. How can Mary be a means to God the Father when Jesus clearly said that no one comes to the Father by any other means than me? This is my biggest hurdle for Catholicism and has been since I was a child, before I had any real knowledge of the Gospel I couldn't accept this.
So again, if we don't agree on translation (as I suspect we won't--that's very much what it ties down to), then that is absolutely fine. Nonetheless, that is the Scriptural position Catholics and Orthodox and others have in regards to Mary, why we honor her, love her, and look to her intercession in order to become fully united with God -- God is the ends and Mary is a means.
Two questions
1. Is it the catholic position that without Mary one cannot be fully United with God?
2. We discussed this briefly earlier but I must come back to it. How can Mary be a means to God the Father when Jesus clearly said that no one comes to the Father by any other means than me? This is my biggest hurdle for Catholicism and has been since I was a child, before I had any real knowledge of the Gospel I couldn't accept this.
It was Christ alone who brought us salvation through His sacrifice. He is our savior, not Mary. He is who we worship, not Mary. I don't mean for it to become complicated. But it was Mary's yes to carrying Christ that got the ball rolling. Mary needed a savior as we all do.
Okay, so we do agree that it was not Mary's obedience that undid the knot of sin. It was Christ's perfect obedience.
You'll have to explain question 1. I'm not sure if you're asking whether was necessary or not or whether it is necessary to have devotion to her.
2. I think I answered this one already...twice I think. We all know there is only one mediator between God and man, and that's Christ, through His blood. But we look to Mary as an intercessor. Just as we're not saved by going to church, going to church helps us in our journey in following Jesus.
I agree that it's Christ's blood that saves us. He's the focal point. We're not saved by Mary, but I believe Mary was part of God's plan.
1. You wrote that you (Catholics) look to Mary for her intercession to be fully united to God. Is it an official position that without this devotion to Mary that it is impossible to be fully United to God?
2. Disregard 2. I accept that there will never be a satisfactory answer from a Catholic to a Protestant concerning this topic. Maybe it's the wording that trips me up. "A means" to God doesn't have the same implication for you and I.
Forgive me if I seem stubborn but I'm not inserting anything here. These are your words that I'm responding to and I don't understand.
You brought up a good question: Did Mary have a choice in the matter?
The reason why most theologians on every side agree that she did was because divine action is the result of love and participation through choice -- it's voluntary. There is no verse that says that it was a command or a question from God, but because we understand not only who God is, but also what God is, we understand that this action could only be fulfilled through Godly love, and love cannot be involuntary. Love cannot be forced, otherwise it's not even love.
The reason why most theologians on every side agree that she did was because divine action is the result of love and participation through choice -- it's voluntary. There is no verse that says that it was a command or a question from God, but because we understand not only who God is, but also what God is, we understand that this action could only be fulfilled through Godly love, and love cannot be involuntary. Love cannot be forced, otherwise it's not even love.
No problem.
1) In a word, no. But that is a very short and general answer. But Catholics even believe Protestants can reach heaven -- and why not? Provided their journey is genuine and sincere, God has mercy on those who seek Him. Heaven is for those who believe and obey God's Word. That's the general answer. There is a much longer, wordy answer.
2) Disregarding
Mary responded, “I am the Lord’s servant. May everything you have said about me come true.” And then the angel left her. (Luke 1:38 NLT)
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:38 KJV)
And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:38 NASB)
I had to reread Luke in several translations to get a clear understanding. IMO, she was more than compliant with what Gabriel told her. I was very close to stop reading at verse 31.
O really?No problem.
1) In a word, no. But that is a very short and general answer. But Catholics even believe Protestants can reach heaven -- and why not? Provided their journey is genuine and sincere, God has mercy on those who seek Him. Heaven is for those who believe and obey God's Word. That's the general answer. There is a much longer, wordy answer.
2) Disregarding
So when Pope Boniface VIII (1302 AD) declared EX CATHEDRA during a session of Extrordinary Magisterium; “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
you do not agree with this infallible teaching from an Extrordinary Magisterium?
My reading has indicated that when a Pope issues a decree Ex Cathedra, because it is considered infallible, subsequent Popes can't /won't rescind it, else it would not be infallible.
Is this not true?
I realize this is getting a tad off topic, but I am merely responding to a statement you made which might also be deemed a tad off topic.
I'm sure major will not be the least offended by this slight excursion provided it is kept slight.
Sorry, I meant to include a few URLs in support of what I posted in #52.
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html
http://catholicism.org/unam-sanctam.html
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/what-are-extraordinary-magisterium-and-ordinary-ma.html
http://www.onetruecatholicfaith.com/Roman-Catholic-Articles.php?id=443&title=1. The Chair of St. Peter on Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation&category=Outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation&page=1
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...where-did-the-catholic-church-come-up-with-it
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html
http://catholicism.org/unam-sanctam.html
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/what-are-extraordinary-magisterium-and-ordinary-ma.html
http://www.onetruecatholicfaith.com/Roman-Catholic-Articles.php?id=443&title=1. The Chair of St. Peter on Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation&category=Outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation&page=1
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...where-did-the-catholic-church-come-up-with-it
Lys~ I don't see where Mary was REQUESTED to participate. She was simply told what would be happening to her and she willingly agreed. Her agreement was praiseworthy, yes. But while there is no verse that says it was a command from God, neither was there a request, from what I gather in the gospel of Luke, anyways.
I said it was a very general answer but there could be much more to say
I agree with the statement (which by the way, was not an infallible statement -- only two times in history has a pope spoken infallibly on two different subjects).That statement is not in conflict with what I said at all in fact.
I'm not in love with your approach, sir. If your attempt is to corner and smear, it has to stop.
There is certainly no passage that says God commanded it either -- I'm not going by my own interpretation, but on what practically every Biblical scholar and theologian has recognized trough understand who and what God is.
Corner and smear..no not at all. I have read of the two you refer to, but the other material I have posted and some other as well seem to indicate that there are more infallible teachings., so I am confused. perhaps this could be discussed in another thread sometime?I said it was a very general answer but there could be much more to say
That statement is not in conflict with what I said at all in fact.
I'm not in love with your approach, sir. If your attempt is to corner and smear, it has to stop.
I didn't say there are only two infallible teachings -- for instance, The Bible being God-breathed is an infallible teaching. Christ being both man and divine is an infallible teaching -- rather, these are dogmatic teachings.
But only two times in history has a pope spoken infallibly...that's what I said. A lot of people think that every time an encyclical comes forward, it is the pope speaking infallibly, but it's almost always not. Only twice in all of Catholic history has the pope done this.
However, this is a dogmatic position when it comes to Mary. For instance, one must believe she was a virgin--that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
When asked whether one has to have a devotion to her in order to reach heaven, I have a general answer, which was no. And that's true--that's the general answer to the general question. But if we wanted to go deeper, that you'll find much more than just "no."
For instance, if I asked you "Do I have to go to read the Bible in order to go to heaven?" the general answer to that is no. We are not saved by reading the Bible. However, reading the Bible strengthens our faith which is necessary to going to heaven. I said in a previous thread recently that at the at some point, we were all brand new Christians with very little knowledge. But if our Christianity--our knowledge, our faith, our relationship with Christ--doesn't mature, then that could be a severe problem.
Not only is the term..."New Eve" not found in the Bible, IMO the teaching from the Catholic believers you mentioned on the topic was done by them to support their opinions instead of commenting on the Bible they commented on the opinions of men which as we all now know have become the "traditions" the church falls back on to support its teachings.
Now allow me to speak to the phrase of .."Mary was the mother of God". IMO we need to compare oranges to oranges. I think to say that organized Christianity recognize and accept Mary as the mother of God is a bit of a stretch. Certainly some do but not all. The idea was not some kind of universal decision. Wasn't it a decision by the Catholic church and then some of the then churches simply fell in line.
Larry, I am sure that you know that the phrase “mother of God” originated with and continues to be used in the RCC. One of the topics at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431 was the use of the Greek term Theotókos, or “God-bearer,” in reference to Mary. That council officially proclaimed Mary as the “mother of God,” and the doctrine was later included in the Catholic catechism. The idea behind calling Mary the “mother of God” is that, since Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, she is the mother of God.
The major problem with this teachig is that the term “God” implies the totality of Yahweh, and we know that Yahweh has no beginning and no end.
Psalms 90:2(ESV)
2 "Before the mountains were brought forth,or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God."
1 Tim. 6:15-16(ESV)
15 "which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
That tells us that God is immortal. Being immortal, God never was “born” and never had a “mother.” The second Person of the Trinity, Jesus, did have a beginning to His earthly ministry when he was conceived in Mary’s womb and was born, but from eternity past He had always been the Son of God.
John 1:1-2
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God."
Now consider Phillipians 2:6-7
"who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
That gives us a bit more insight on what transpired when Jesus left heaven to become man. Jesus was already one with the Father, but He set aside His rights as Divinity and took the form of a baby and went on to live the normal life of a Jewish boy, obeying His earthly parents.
A mother by definition precedes her child and at some point is more powerful than her child. So to call Mary the “mother of God” gives the misleading implication that Mary preceded and at one time was more powerful than the Lord God Almighty. Although Catholic doctrine tries to deny this implication, it is inescapable.
It is biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ during His incarnation on the earth. However, Catholics believe it is not enough to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus. Pope John Paul II, in a speech in 1996, encouraged people “not only to invoke the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Jesus, but also to recognize her as Mother of God” (L'Osservatore Romano, 4 December 1996, p. 11). This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Mary-mother-God-theotokos.html#ixzz3EEZFVcvH
Larry......I do not agree with that position. I see where it comes from but I can not accept it.
Blessings!