Is Mary the New Eve?

Major said:
Saying that the Scriptures posted are "Bits" gives the indication that they are not valid to you my brother.
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That's a red herring argument and you know it.

One last try to make the difference obvious.

When Peter walked through town, those who had his shadow pass over them were healed of their diseases.
Who, of any living, that you know, has ever had his shadow pass over anyone and heal them?
None, not 1.

When St. Joseph Cupertino would pray, he would become so enraptured at the thought of God that he would fly.
Of the tens of thousands who sit in pews in Joel Olsteen's church (or any mega church pastor for that matter), how many
fly about during the service?
None, not 1.

When a cripple came to Blessed Father Seelos, and refused to leave until he was healed. The father blessed him and the cripple walked out.
How many cripples were healed by pastors in this country last Sunday?
None, not 1.

When a child drowned in a well, the mother came to St. Francis Xavier and begged him for help. St. Francis Xavier said a short prayer, took the dead child by the hand, and bade him arise. The child rose and immediately ran to his mother.
How many dead have been raised by pastors in this country in the last decade?
None, not 1.

I know a saint when I see one. Pity so many cannot.
 
Glomung said:
That's a red herring argument and you know it.

One last try to make the difference obvious.

When Peter walked through town, those who had his shadow pass over them were healed of their diseases.
Who, of any living, that you know, has ever had his shadow pass over anyone and heal them?
None, not 1.

When St. Joseph Cupertino would pray, he would become so enraptured at the thought of God that he would fly.
Of the tens of thousands who sit in pews in Joel Olsteen's church (or any mega church pastor for that matter), how many
fly about during the service?
None, not 1.

When a cripple came to Blessed Father Seelos, and refused to leave until he was healed. The father blessed him and the cripple walked out.
How many cripples were healed by pastors in this country last Sunday?
None, not 1.

When a child drowned in a well, the mother came to St. Francis Xavier and begged him for help. St. Francis Xavier said a short prayer, took the dead child by the hand, and bade him arise. The child rose and immediately ran to his mother.
How many dead have been raised by pastors in this country in the last decade?
None, not 1.

I know a saint when I see one. Pity so many cannot.
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No sir, I am not sure you would..........it is the Scriptures not what someone has said.

I am perplexed at why you would argue such a clear Bible teaching and use Joel Osteen as your example when He does not even call himself a Pastor. HE calls and refers to himself as a motivational speaker.

I will not argue such a thing further as this and We will be in disagreement then.
 
Glomung said:
That's a red herring argument and you know it.

One last try to make the difference obvious.

When Peter walked through town, those who had his shadow pass over them were healed of their diseases.
Who, of any living, that you know, has ever had his shadow pass over anyone and heal them?
None, not 1.

When St. Joseph Cupertino would pray, he would become so enraptured at the thought of God that he would fly.
Of the tens of thousands who sit in pews in Joel Olsteen's church (or any mega church pastor for that matter), how many
fly about during the service?
None, not 1.

When a cripple came to Blessed Father Seelos, and refused to leave until he was healed. The father blessed him and the cripple walked out.
How many cripples were healed by pastors in this country last Sunday?
None, not 1.

When a child drowned in a well, the mother came to St. Francis Xavier and begged him for help. St. Francis Xavier said a short prayer, took the dead child by the hand, and bade him arise. The child rose and immediately ran to his mother.
How many dead have been raised by pastors in this country in the last decade?
None, not 1.

I know a saint when I see one. Pity so many cannot.
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Glomung, are you saying that a saint must do miracles before they can be recognized as a saint?
 
C1oudwatch3r said:
Glomung, are you saying that a saint must do miracles before they can be recognized as a saint?
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No. But it helps. The wonder working is a result of their virtue, not the cause of their virtue.
But to call someone a saint who has not shown any virtue other than accepting the obvious is, in my opinion, an abuse of the word.
It is the equivalent of a person after one karate class calling themself the equal to Bruce Lee.

This whole conversation reminds me very much of the flattering nonsense that is so prevalent in the American culture.
The absurd notion that "everyone is a winner", "everyone is smarter than average", "everyone is virtuous", is a plague on reason.
 
C1oudwatch3r said:
Glomung, are you saying that a saint must do miracles before they can be recognized as a saint?
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I have no idea what Glomung is saying although it appears obvious, I did look up the Catholic stance and position and it is.............

"Blessed: After the Church establishes one miracle, the venerable person’s cause is presented to the pope to see whether he deems her worthy of being called blessed. This step is called beatification and is the next-to-last step."

That is found at....http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-become-a-saint-in-the-catholic-church.html.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
What Glomung said is that miracles performed through the intercession of saints helps recognize them -- it doesn't mean that's how they become saints.
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I hear what you are saying LS, but there seems to be a contradiction what the Church does........

From...http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/25/sainthood-explained/
So how does one become a saint?
In one sense it’s a democratic process, beginning with a grassroots conviction that a given person lived a holy life. From there, things unfold in three stages. First, Church officials make a study of the person’s life. In John Paul’s case, a four-volume study stretching over more than 2,000 pages was produced, including testimony from more than 100 witnesses.

Next, one miracle after the candidate’s death is required for beatification - and another for canonization. Usually the miracles are healings, which must be instantaneous, permanent, and complete, in addition to scientifically inexplicable. Catholics see the miracle as God’s seal of approval, a way of verifying that the saint really is in heaven.

As pope, John Paul II made the sainthood process faster and simpler – but it’s still not cheap. The biggest expenses are usually the ceremonies for beatification and canonization. When St. Josemaría Escriva, the founder of Opus Dei, was canonized in 2002, Opus Dei estimated that it had spent roughly $1 million on the process from beginning to end, stretching over three decades.
 
Major said:
I hear what you are saying LS, but there seems to be a contradiction what the Church does........

From...http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/25/sainthood-explained/
So how does one become a saint?
In one sense it’s a democratic process, beginning with a grassroots conviction that a given person lived a holy life. From there, things unfold in three stages. First, Church officials make a study of the person’s life. In John Paul’s case, a four-volume study stretching over more than 2,000 pages was produced, including testimony from more than 100 witnesses.

Next, one miracle after the candidate’s death is required for beatification - and another for canonization. Usually the miracles are healings, which must be instantaneous, permanent, and complete, in addition to scientifically inexplicable. Catholics see the miracle as God’s seal of approval, a way of verifying that the saint really is in heaven.

As pope, John Paul II made the sainthood process faster and simpler – but it’s still not cheap. The biggest expenses are usually the ceremonies for beatification and canonization. When St. Josemaría Escriva, the founder of Opus Dei, was canonized in 2002, Opus Dei estimated that it had spent roughly $1 million on the process from beginning to end, stretching over three decades.
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I think possibly the first problem with what CNN put together was its misunderstanding of one's sainthood; "So how does one become a saint?" And then it went on to explain the process of proclamation.

A saint isn't made by the Church. A saint is made by God. The Church merely recognizes saints, but no one can make them except for God.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I think possibly the first problem with what CNN put together was its misunderstanding of one's sainthood; "So how does one become a saint?" And then it went on to explain the process of proclamation.

A saint isn't made by the Church. A saint is made by God. The Church merely recognizes saints, but no one can make them except for God.
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So then..........they were wrong in their comment that a saint had to have done a miracle in order to be considered?
 
Major said:
So then..........they were wrong in their comment that a saint had to have done a miracle in order to be considered?
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No, they were wrong in saying who makes a saint. The miracle part is toward the recognition of a saint. But there are far more saints than simply the ones recognized.
 
Do evangelical churches ever contain saint names? Or do we infer from church names like St. George's, St. Peter's, St. Paul's, etc., that they are Catholic, Anglican, etc?
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Do evangelical churches ever contain saint names? Or do we infer from church names like St. George's, St. Peter's, St. Paul's, etc., that they are Catholic, Anglican, etc?
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That's a good question and one I was thinking about awhile ago. I've never encountered one but I've never sought one out either.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Do evangelical churches ever contain saint names? Or do we infer from church names like St. George's, St. Peter's, St. Paul's, etc., that they are Catholic, Anglican, etc?
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Right on my street, there is a St. Mark's Baptist Church. But also, my work involves communicating with many different parishes of many different denominations. United Methodists, Presbyterian, Non-Denom, AME, CME -- most of these have included saint names with their parishes.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
Right on my street, there is a St. Mark's Baptist Church. But also, my work involves communicating with many different parishes of many different denominations. United Methodists, Presbyterian, Non-Denom, AME, CME -- most of these have included saint names with their parishes.
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It's interesting. Maybe the saint name can suggest a denomination too depending on which saints are recognized as being saints.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
It's St. George I'm specifically wondering about, since he's so synonymous with the Church of England.
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St. George is my wife's brother's saint name.

I suspect he is linked to the Anglican Church because he is the patron saint of England, but the Catholic and Orthodox churches recognize his sainthood.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Or do we infer from church names like St. George's, St. Peter's, St. Paul's, etc., that they are Catholic, Anglican, etc?
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I could be wrong but my first thought is that I suspect that there are a fair number of churches in England who's names pre-date the Church of England's split with the Roman Catholic church in 1534.
 
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