Is The Bible Questionable?

[Musicmaster]

There was a short time, many years ago, when I subscribed to the "Big Sugar Daddy in the Sky" theology, believing he would give to me whatever I proclaimed in faith.

Then, I mistakenly ran across Matthew 6:10, 26:42, and Luke 11:2. Those verses, and many others throughout, placed a blanket of reality over my zeal rather than a wet one.

MM

 

[Major]

It's always based on the phony assumption that "That Perfect" that does away with the Charisma, is the published Bible.

What "your opinion" is of phony is what a lot of other people accept as truth.

You and I can debate this subject for years and neither one will change his opinion. You as do many others "want" to practice the gifts given to the apostles and you will do so no matter what is said.

That is your right to do so and I respect that. I do not agree with you but I respect your right to believe as you choose.

Now the thread is......"Is the Bible questionable?"

I stand on the fact that it is not. It is either right or it is wrong which is the theology of Absolutism.

When the Bible, written by the Lord Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh says something...anything then that in my understanding is the end of the debate.

So then, in Mark 16:14-20 , God said...............
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

According to the Word of God, the ELEVEN Apostles were given the "Sign Gifts" in order to authenticate their calling and position and be able to spread the gospel of God.

I was not included in the Eleven and neither was anyone else. Now, if anyone wants to practice those sign gifts and believe in the "Continuation" of those gifts.......that is your choice but it is not a Bible direction.

 

[Musicmaster]

The topic of this thread is a good one. Given that the Law of God is perfect, and that the NT doesn't negate the Law of God in any way, but rather builds upon it the New Covenant of the completed work on the cross of His flesh and His blood, the Bible is completely reliable and authoritative. What's sad are the many spin-off, outlandish beliefs our translations into English have created, as well as other languages, including the Latin. The original articles, and their copies, are by far superior to ALL translations. Even the KJV translators never considered their translation to be perfect nor superior to all others at that time.

The Lord is true, and all others liars. That's the understanding Isaiah had about his own lips. It is true of us all (Romans 3:4). I want purification when I speak the things of the Lord. Without that purification, I speak from my own authority and understanding, which make me a liar.

God is true...I am not.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

MM

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What "your opinion" is of phony is what a lot of other people accept as truth.

You and I can debate this subject for years and neither one will change his opinion. You as do many others "want" to practice the gifts given to the apostles and you will do so no matter what is said.

That is your right to do so and I respect that. I do not agree with you but I respect your right to believe as you choose.

Now the thread is......"Is the Bible questionable?"

I stand on the fact that it is not. It is either right or it is wrong which is the theology of Absolutism.

When the Bible, written by the Lord Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh says something...anything then that in my understanding is the end of the debate.

So then, in Mark 16:14-20 , God said...............
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

According to the Word of God, the ELEVEN Apostles were given the "Sign Gifts" in order to authenticate their calling and position and be able to spread the gospel of God.

I was not included in the Eleven and neither was anyone else. Now, if anyone wants to practice those sign gifts and believe in the "Continuation" of those gifts.......that is your choice but it is not a Bible direction.

You can't "Practice" a "Gift" that you aren't empowered by the Holy Spirit to manifest. Simple as that.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What "your opinion" is of phony is what a lot of other people accept as truth.

yup - they're called "Cessationists". And since the Bible IS NOT "Perfect" (since it contains errors of fact - many by comparing Kings and Chronicals), then while it's completely authoritative, it's simply NOT "Perfect". God's perfection would be absolute.

You and I can debate this subject for years and neither one will change his opinion. You as do many others "want" to practice the gifts given to the apostles and you will do so no matter what is said.

I NEVER "Practice" the gifts, since I have nothing to do with the manifestation of any of them. NOBODY HAS "Gifts", and it's the Holy Spirit who DOES Have them, and HE is the one who burdens people to manifest them as HE wills, and WHEN He wills - period. HE has burdened me on several occasions to manifest an interpretation to the congregation of "tongues" spoken by another - but I'm NOT an "interpreter", and occasionally He's burdened me to speak a word of Prophesy to people, but I'm NOT a "Prophet".

According to the Word of God, the ELEVEN Apostles were given the "Sign Gifts" in order to authenticate their calling and position and be able to spread the gospel of God.

Assuming you're speaking of Luke 10,there were 70 who went out empowered. And at that time NONE OF THEM were even "Born Again", so it's only a case of the Disciples performing in the power of the Holy Spirit exactly what OLD Testament Judges and Prophets were able to do.

If NOT Luke 10, then I'm not sure where you're getting "11" with the sign gifts, since there were probably 120 in Acts 2 -

 

[Major]

yup - they're called "Cessationists". And since the Bible IS NOT "Perfect" (since it contains errors of fact - many by comparing Kings and Chronicals), then while it's completely authoritative, it's simply NOT "Perfect". God's perfection would be absolute.

I NEVER "Practice" the gifts, since I have nothing to do with the manifestation of any of them. NOBODY HAS "Gifts", and it's the Holy Spirit who DOES Have them, and HE is the one who burdens people to manifest them as HE wills, and WHEN He wills - period. HE has burdened me on several occasions to manifest an interpretation to the congregation of "tongues" spoken by another - but I'm NOT an "interpreter", and occasionally He's burdened me to speak a word of Prophesy to people, but I'm NOT a "Prophet".

Assuming you're speaking of Luke 10,there were 70 who went out empowered. And at that time NONE OF THEM were even "Born Again", so it's only a case of the Disciples performing in the power of the Holy Spirit exactly what OLD Testament Judges and Prophets were able to do.

If NOT Luke 10, then I'm not sure where you're getting "11" with the sign gifts, since there were probably 120 in Acts 2 -

No.....Mark 16.........identifies the ELEVEN Apostles standing in front of Jesus when He gave the Great Commission ro THEM.

 

[Major]

yup - they're called "Cessationists". And since the Bible IS NOT "Perfect" (since it contains errors of fact - many by comparing Kings and Chronicals), then while it's completely authoritative, it's simply NOT "Perfect". God's perfection would be absolute.

I NEVER "Practice" the gifts, since I have nothing to do with the manifestation of any of them. NOBODY HAS "Gifts", and it's the Holy Spirit who DOES Have them, and HE is the one who burdens people to manifest them as HE wills, and WHEN He wills - period. HE has burdened me on several occasions to manifest an interpretation to the congregation of "tongues" spoken by another - but I'm NOT an "interpreter", and occasionally He's burdened me to speak a word of Prophesy to people, but I'm NOT a "Prophet".

Assuming you're speaking of Luke 10,there were 70 who went out empowered. And at that time NONE OF THEM were even "Born Again", so it's only a case of the Disciples performing in the power of the Holy Spirit exactly what OLD Testament Judges and Prophets were able to do.

If NOT Luke 10, then I'm not sure where you're getting "11" with the sign gifts, since there were probably 120 in Acts 2 -

I can not agree with you Bob.

The Bible IS the Perfect Word of God and does not contain any errors.

“The Bible is inspired, but is it inerrant, that is without errors? The reason for a positive answer is simple: The Bible is the Word of God, and God cannot err; therefore, the Bible cannot err. To deny the inerrancy of the Bible one must either affirm that God can err or else that the Bible is not the Word of God.” (Norman Giesler )

“The theological basis of the belief of inerrancy, in its simplest form, is that as God is perfect, the Bible, as the word of God, must also be perfect, thus, free from error. Proponents of biblical inerrancy also teach that God used the “distinctive personalities and literary styles of the writers” of scripture but that God’s inspiration guided them to flawlessly project his message through their own language and personality” (New World Encyclopedia)

I for one believe that the Bible is inerrant, but this does not mean that the writers always practiced perfect Greek or Hebrew. It also doesn’t mean that they put all their facts in modern, advanced scientific terms. …They can paraphrase the Old Testament, and even Jesus. But none of these things affect our belief that the Bible represents the facts correctly. Just because a statement is imprecise does not make it false.

No one today can practice the Sign Gifts because NO ONE today is an Apostle. The Sign Gifts were given to the ELENEN in Mark 16.

 

[crossnote]

According to the Word of God, the ELEVEN Apostles were given the "Sign Gifts" in order to authenticate their calling and position and be able to spread the gospel of God.

I’ve always wondered about this, especially regarding those missionaries in lands where the Gospel has never been heard. What authentication do they have?

 

[Musicmaster]

yup - they're called "Cessationists". And since the Bible IS NOT "Perfect" (since it contains errors of fact - many by comparing Kings and Chronicals), then while it's completely authoritative, it's simply NOT "Perfect". God's perfection would be absolute.

I NEVER "Practice" the gifts, since I have nothing to do with the manifestation of any of them. NOBODY HAS "Gifts", and it's the Holy Spirit who DOES Have them, and HE is the one who burdens people to manifest them as HE wills, and WHEN He wills - period. HE has burdened me on several occasions to manifest an interpretation to the congregation of "tongues" spoken by another - but I'm NOT an "interpreter", and occasionally He's burdened me to speak a word of Prophesy to people, but I'm NOT a "Prophet".

Assuming you're speaking of Luke 10,there were 70 who went out empowered. And at that time NONE OF THEM were even "Born Again", so it's only a case of the Disciples performing in the power of the Holy Spirit exactly what OLD Testament Judges and Prophets were able to do.

If NOT Luke 10, then I'm not sure where you're getting "11" with the sign gifts, since there were probably 120 in Acts 2 -

Bob, Kings and Chronicles are not in error with one another. The difference between them is the perspective from which they were written. I've seen all this before, and the presumption of error is in on the part of men, not God, nor the scriptures. One was written from the perspective from the temple, and the other from the palace. One from God's perspective, the other through men. Some wording is different, such as one pace where it says an evil sprit from the Lord, the other and angel from the Lord to torment Saul, if I recall that one correctly. J. Vernon McGee taught on this topic very well, and I think he handled it beautifully. Ezra, the man who put together those and all the other books of what we call the Old Testament, has a great respect for the word of God...enough to refrain from calling it into question.

If ever we're going to call something into question is can be translations. God, however, has stated His thoughts on this very well in 1 John 2:27. We have the written word of God, and best of all, we have Holy Spirit to reveal the deeper things of what we read and what He gives to us in that deeper relationship through prayer and meditation, and in quietness before Him.

Perhaps you define perfection differently than most others here, but the meaning within the scriptures, when not referring to the Lord Most High Himself, is "completeness." The word of God is complete, and without any need to for adding new revelation. The Lord has spoken to us through His only begotten Son, and through His apostles. Those today who claim to have some new revelation from God are suspect to say the least...some of whom claim and sing about how God is allegedly "...doing a new thing..."

Such men state that from their own authority, many of whom teach what is contrary to what is written. Some very popular men we have all seen on TV, seen their books, and can watch them on Youtube right now, have looked right into the camera and declared what turned out to be totally false prophecies, and their blind supporters continue to send them money. Many false prophets are among us, and rather than get angry at them, I knock the dust off my feet and move on (figuratively speaking). I don't fear them. They have their reward, and will stand before the Most High when the time comes.

MM

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No.....Mark 16.........identifies the ELEVEN Apostles standing in front of Jesus when He gave the Great Commission ro THEM.

Then if THEY were the only ones commanded to spread the Gospel, apparently then, according to your interpretation, we have to right sent out missionaries, since only the 11 were commissioned to do so.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If ever we're going to call something into question is can be translations.

ABsolutely. I totally agree

God, however, has stated His thoughts on this very well in 1 John 2:27. We have the written word of God, and best of all, we have Holy Spirit to reveal the deeper things of what we read and what He gives to us in that deeper relationship through prayer and meditation, and in quietness before Him.

Which is the SAFETY in the Bible. The Holy SPirit won't empower - what He didn't say.

Perhaps you define perfection differently than most others here,

"Perfection" = No errors, no contradictions of any kind, total PERFECTION Verbally- period.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What "your opinion" is of phony is what a lot of other people accept as truth.

Incidentally Denominations who claim the Bible is perfect, generally have added the disclaimer: "In the original autographs" to their doctrine, as a work around for reality.
DO I accept the Bible as authoritative - SURE!! But I still require the Illumination of the Holy Spirit to make it MINE. Rom 10:17.

 

[Major]

Then if THEY were the only ones commanded to spread the Gospel, apparently then, according to your interpretation, we have to right sent out missionaries, since only the 11 were commissioned to do so.

That is not "MY" interpretation.


That is exactly what the Bible says my dear brother.

The "sign gifts" were given to the eleven. There should be no question among believers whether or not the "sign gifts" existed, for the Bible plainly describes them. Where disagreement arises among believers is their purpose, as well as the question of whether we should experience them today. Some say that these gifts are a sign of one’s salvation, while others say they are a sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and yet others say their purpose is to authenticate the message of the gospel.

If we go back and inspect the examples in Scripture of signs and wonders we will see that In every instance, the sign gifts were a confirmation of God’s message and messenger, in order that people might hear and believe. Once the message was confirmed, the signs faded away. We typically don’t need those signs to be repeated in our lives, but we do need to receive the same gospel message.

To think that we need signs and miracles and wonders today is actually a lack of faith.

 

[Major]

Incidentally Denominations who claim the Bible is perfect, generally have added the disclaimer: "In the original autographs" to their doctrine, as a work around for reality.
DO I accept the Bible as authoritative - SURE!! But I still require the Illumination of the Holy Spirit to make it MINE. Rom 10:17.

You of course are welcome to your opinion. I however do not agree with your opinion.

The word infallible means “incapable of error.” If something is infallible, it is never wrong and thus absolutely trustworthy. Similarly, the word inerrant, also applied to Scripture, means “free from error.” Simply put, the Bible never fails. The Bible claims to be infallible in 2 Peter 1:19: ...
“We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable”.

Peter continues with a description of how Scripture came to be in 2 Peter 1:20-21:......
“No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit”.

Also, we see infallibility implied in 2 Timothy 3:16–17:........
“All Scripture is God-breathed” or “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” and has the effect of producing servants of God who are “thoroughly equipped for every good work.” The fact that God “breathed” Scripture insures that the Bible is infallible, for God cannot breathe out error.

The fact that the Bible equips God’s servants “thoroughly” for service shows that it guides us into truth, not error. If God is infallible, then so will be his word. The doctrine of Scripture’s infallibility is based on an understanding of God’s perfection of character. God’s word is “perfect, refreshing the soul” because God Himself is perfect.

It should be noted and most everyone I know understands that the doctrine of infallibility concerns only the original documents. That is NOT a "disclaimer" but a statement of the obvious. Mistranslations, printing errors and typos are obvious human mistakes and are easily identified. However, it is my understanding and I believe that the original text as written by the biblical writers was completely free from error or omission, as the Spirit led them.

 

[Major]

Bob, Kings and Chronicles are not in error with one another. The difference between them is the perspective from which they were written. I've seen all this before, and the presumption of error is in on the part of men, not God, nor the scriptures. One was written from the perspective from the temple, and the other from the palace. One from God's perspective, the other through men. Some wording is different, such as one pace where it says an evil sprit from the Lord, the other and angel from the Lord to torment Saul, if I recall that one correctly. J. Vernon McGee taught on this topic very well, and I think he handled it beautifully. Ezra, the man who put together those and all the other books of what we call the Old Testament, has a great respect for the word of God...enough to refrain from calling it into question.

If ever we're going to call something into question is can be translations. God, however, has stated His thoughts on this very well in 1 John 2:27. We have the written word of God, and best of all, we have Holy Spirit to reveal the deeper things of what we read and what He gives to us in that deeper relationship through prayer and meditation, and in quietness before Him.

Perhaps you define perfection differently than most others here, but the meaning within the scriptures, when not referring to the Lord Most High Himself, is "completeness." The word of God is complete, and without any need to for adding new revelation. The Lord has spoken to us through His only begotten Son, and through His apostles. Those today who claim to have some new revelation from God are suspect to say the least...some of whom claim and sing about how God is allegedly "...doing a new thing..."

Such men state that from their own authority, many of whom teach what is contrary to what is written. Some very popular men we have all seen on TV, seen their books, and can watch them on Youtube right now, have looked right into the camera and declared what turned out to be totally false prophecies, and their blind supporters continue to send them money. Many false prophets are among us, and rather than get angry at them, I knock the dust off my feet and move on (figuratively speaking). I don't fear them. They have their reward, and will stand before the Most High when the time comes.

MM

Agree. I think that you will agree with me that Atheist's over the years have focused on Chronicles and Kings as a way to discredit the whole of Scriptures.

Just as you rightly stated...... the books of Kings gives a detailed account of Jewish history from the death of David to the fall of Jerusalem, whereas Chronicles spreads a wider net covering, essentially, all Jewish history (dealt with through genealogy before David), ending at approximately the same time, though with the last part of chapter 36 recounting Cyrus the Great's decree for Jerusalem to be rebuilt.

Both Kings and Chronicles are inspired books written by prophets of God, but their purposes are different. Just as in the case of the gospels where we frequently find several different versions of the same story or incident, each giving unique details which are important for us to have and which serve the particular purpose of each inspired writer, so with Kings and Chronicles, the differences are to be attributed to the different emphases and particular purpose the Spirit has in mind in guiding the individual writers. In general terms, I think it is clear that Kings is more clearly a comprehensive divine history of the two kingdoms, summing up that history at its conclusion. Chronicles, on the other hand, is more of a selective and synoptic picture of the history of Israel at one glance, summing things up as a prelude to the future at the time of the reestablishment of the Jewish state.

As such, it is not surprising that certain things would be left out of Chronicles (having a tighter scope), or that the Holy Spirit would lead the writer to include certain things of an explanatory and interpretive nature in those incidents which come in for detailed treatment.

By the way........I have missed you!!!!

 

[crossnote]

To think that we need signs and miracles and wonders today is actually a lack of faith.

True, but what of those who never heard and are without faith, can't God sovereignly verify His Gospel through signs and miracles?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

To think that we need signs and miracles and wonders today is actually a lack of faith.

So there's no real use in 2021 for the Gifts of Healings?
The Word of Wisdom?
The Word of Knowledge?
The Prophetic Word?
The Gift of FAITH?
The discerning of Spirits?
Miracles?

You appear to believe that there's no use for any of these NOW.

Seems that if I were Sick, the gifts of healings would come in handy - And James 1 promises WISDOM to those who seek it singlemindedly. Oh and saving faith is a GIFT (Eph 2:8,9)

 

[Bob Carabbio]

However, it is my understanding and I believe that the original text as written by the biblical writers was completely free from error or omission, as the Spirit led them.

Yup that's the common rationalization for inaccuracies in present translations. GOD'S WORD (which is anything God speaks) is, by definition, "infallible", and completely perfect.

 

[bobinfaith]

The title of this thread, Is The Bible Questionable? Yes, it is. Every seasoned Christian disciple who studies the Bible should still be posing questions of the history, exegesis, hermeneutics and Biblical interpretation (theological terminology) to our Father in Heaven, daily.

The Book's author is God and the theological terminology is going to challenge us. God's Word will fill us with questions and it should, for a lifetime.

Is the Bible perfect? Yes it is. The inerrancy of the Bible is what it is if we believe it was orchestrated by God. When we offer our reasoning of error in God's Word we have to think about this, logically.

If God made an error in His Word, then does this mean the Bible is a percentage accurate with a percentage of error? Does this mean we must then follow the daily application of the Bible, part way, and work around the errors?

God did use imperfect humans to write the early manuscripts. These imperfect humans were servants, anointed and instructed by God to complete His Word despite the challenges of the publishing process. Still, God would complete His Perfect Work.

If God's instructions of the Bible is shortcoming, then we have to think reasonably that His heavens, universe and earthly creation are also a percentage in error.

After all these years of surrendering our lives to His Word and daily application does this mean we only submit ourselves to "what is perfect with God," and tiptoe around God's imperfections, or errors?

We cannot just dismiss the imperfections of the Bible only, but all of God who then is not perfect in our daily applications. It's like saying, we only believe God part way.

Logically, this does not make sense and we need to be careful. Everything about God, who He is, has done and is still going to do including His Word the Bible is perfect and sovereign.

 

[Musicmaster]

So there's no real use in 2021 for the Gifts of Healings?
The Word of Wisdom?
The Word of Knowledge?
The Prophetic Word?
The Gift of FAITH?
The discerning of Spirits?
Miracles?

You appear to believe that there's no use for any of these NOW.

Seems that if I were Sick, the gifts of healings would come in handy - And James 1 promises WISDOM to those who seek it singlemindedly. Oh and saving faith is a GIFT (Eph 2:8,9)

That's an interesting set of questions, Bob. What comes to my mind is that you're asking those questions based upon another presupposition that you never did address, nor back up with any apologetic that I have seen thus far...unless I missed it:

WHY do you think we still need those things? I'm not saying we don't need some of them today, but why? Are you saying the Bible is insufficient? I'm not saying there's no need for faith, discernment of spirits and such, but the others...? Are you saying the Bible and the Spirit of the Lord are incapable of instilling wisdom and knowledge? Do you think the Bible is limited in its ability to address all of life as it's functioning around us today? Are you saying that you've exhausted the Bible in totality, and therefore need more? If so, then how did you arrive at that point in your spiritual walk? Not even Paul of Tarsus laid claim to such. Please elaborate.

You see, it's not just about the Bible, but rather the Bible as the sign post in the roadway pointing to the Spirit of the Lord (1 John 2:27) Who enlivens and empowers what's written to us all in scripture.

Can and does the Lord still work miracles? Yes. Absolutely. However, the many charlatans out there swinging their suit jackets around and allegedly knocking the people over with some sort of spirit upon and over them...no. We don't see that kind of trashy stuff in the scriptures. We read not one account where the apostles took off their outer tunic and swung them around in wild circles, and making use of emotionally charged gathering atmospheres, and the people falling to the ground, wiggling around as if possessed by demons, howling like wolves, barking like dogs, and exhibiting all manner of strange and demonic stuff.

Now, I'm not saying that all the charismatic activities are demonic, but some of the stuff I've seen is completely over the edge of any imaginable reasonings one could try to dredge up from scripture.

What about prophecy? What more could we possibly need to know that's not already revealed? I've tested the spirits of some who were proclaimed to be prophets, and found them to be very wanting. When tested, they all failed miserably.

So, rather than lump all the strange and outlandish nonsense I've seen in with some truly spiritual operations in the Church (not buildings and men who come in their own names), I try to balance it all out, using the Bible as the acid test for what is reliable and what is not. Any prophecy, revelation, word of wisdom, etc., that doesn't align with scripture, it's suspect at best.

MM