(Off topic alert!)
WELCOME BACK Major.
Is This the Essence of Denominationalism?
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- denominationalism
WELCOME BACK Major.
hey major good see you survived . we have so much wind doctrine its pathetic i just dont have time for anything contrary to scriptures. granted some things can not be settled . when man makes things up just to make a doctrine. i draw the line
you like systematic study go join carm forum . it would be interesting to watch. they are %98 Calvinist based from hyper to what ever else
Let's address what I've said.
''...
''...Calvin himself, and later Calvinists, all affirm that God’s timelessness and His determining of all things was due to his foreknowledge which He used to establish an eternal decree.'' [29]
[28] Calvin, Institutes, III.21.5.
[29] Treier, Introducing Evangelical Theology, 116; Boothe, Plain Theology for Plain People, 81.
Election and Predestination According to John Calvin — Who Is Like You Ministries
John Calvin’s belief in election and predestination have been a source of passionate debate between Christians for hundreds of years. But what is election? What is predestination?
www.whoislikeyouministries.org
Calvinism is a very complex doctrine.. they have some good points . but the progress to salvation will cause you go cross-eyed. trying to understand.. in carm forum when i belonged they got pretty hateful with me. when i challenged the doctrine..Let's address what I've said.
''...
''...Calvin himself, and later Calvinists, all affirm that God’s timelessness and His determining of all things was due to his foreknowledge which He used to establish an eternal decree.'' [29]
[28] Calvin, Institutes, III.21.5.
[29] Treier, Introducing Evangelical Theology, 116; Boothe, Plain Theology for Plain People, 81.
Election and Predestination According to John Calvin — Who Is Like You Ministries
John Calvin’s belief in election and predestination have been a source of passionate debate between Christians for hundreds of years. But what is election? What is predestination?
Calvinism's Doctrine of Election is a dangerous and frightful view of God. If I believed in this doctrine, I would never attempt to preach the word of God and never try to lead anyone to Christ because there'd be no need of it.Let's address what I've said.
''...
''...Calvin himself, and later Calvinists, all affirm that God’s timelessness and His determining of all things was due to his foreknowledge which He used to establish an eternal decree.'' [29]
[28] Calvin, Institutes, III.21.5.
[29] Treier, Introducing Evangelical Theology, 116; Boothe, Plain Theology for Plain People, 81.
Election and Predestination According to John Calvin — Who Is Like You Ministries
John Calvin’s belief in election and predestination have been a source of passionate debate between Christians for hundreds of years. But what is election? What is predestination?
Election and Predestination are both mentioned in the Bible. What is not in the Bible is Calvinism.
It is true that while Predestination is a biblical concept, Election does not constitute a subdivision of soteriology. It’s a word. It’s used many times in the Bible to refer to people who’ve been saved but it also refers to some who haven’t been saved and it never represents unqualified selections. The word alone carries no special meaning.
Calvinism is a manmade system that is not biblical, was never biblically based, and those who promote it in this life will be embarrassed for it in the next. They’ll definitely have a lot to apologize for.
Calvinism’s illogical ideas turn grace into cruelty, diminish the potential effect of the Cross, insult the intelligence of humans created in the image of God, and mask one of the most important truths of the New Testament which is that Jesus died for everyone, every person, every individual. He left no one out. He loves the entire world and wants all people to come to repentance and ALL can be saved by accepting the Lord Jesus Christ.
I've found the very word Calvinism blinds minds.
Many choose to ignore the verse, many are called few are [the] chosen.
If the Elect includes the saved and the condemned, as you implied, then there is no issue with God predestination that. Because it is he who Elects both.
The bold in your post isn't even what Jesus taught.
“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34 “But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34 “This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6
“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables. “That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13
You said.............
The bold in your post isn't even what Jesus taught.
John 3:16............
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Rev. 5:1 & 13.........
“You (Jesus) are worthy … for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation”.
God can save anyone.......but not everyone!
Calvinism has its TULIP acronym
T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited (or Particular) Atonement
I - Irresistable Grace
P - Preservation of the Saints
Arminianism has its 5 articles of Remonstrance
1 - Conditional Election
2 - Unlimited Atonement
3 - Total Depravity
4 - Preveniant Grace
5 - Conditional Preservation of the Saints
Wesleyans (e.g. Methodists) have the Wesleyan Quadrilateral
Consisting of
A roof of Experiance
Resting on supports of
Reason and
Tradition
All built upon a large grounding of Scripture
And I recently learned Molinism has its ROSES acronym:
R - Radical Depravity
O - Overcoming Grace
S - Soverein Election
E - Eternal Life
S - Singular Redemption
Each of these is an attempt to organize an overall approach to understanding central concepts of Christianity.
Each may have scriptural basis, and be useful to various extents as descriptions and aids in learning and remembering.
But as the saying goes,
The Map is NOT the Territory
The problem comes when one becomes so emotionaly invested in one that it becomes a DEFINITION and anything that deviates from that definition is to that extent wrong for no other reason than that deviation regardless of whatever scripture suports a contrasting approach.
The fundamental truth of Christ cannot be reduced to a postcard sized description.
T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited (or Particular) Atonement
I - Irresistable Grace
P - Preservation of the Saints
Arminianism has its 5 articles of Remonstrance
1 - Conditional Election
2 - Unlimited Atonement
3 - Total Depravity
4 - Preveniant Grace
5 - Conditional Preservation of the Saints
Wesleyans (e.g. Methodists) have the Wesleyan Quadrilateral
Consisting of
A roof of Experiance
Resting on supports of
Reason and
Tradition
All built upon a large grounding of Scripture
And I recently learned Molinism has its ROSES acronym:
R - Radical Depravity
O - Overcoming Grace
S - Soverein Election
E - Eternal Life
S - Singular Redemption
Each of these is an attempt to organize an overall approach to understanding central concepts of Christianity.
Each may have scriptural basis, and be useful to various extents as descriptions and aids in learning and remembering.
But as the saying goes,
The Map is NOT the Territory
The problem comes when one becomes so emotionaly invested in one that it becomes a DEFINITION and anything that deviates from that definition is to that extent wrong for no other reason than that deviation regardless of whatever scripture suports a contrasting approach.
The fundamental truth of Christ cannot be reduced to a postcard sized description.
Context my brother, context.
''Us'' in that passage in John's Revelation from Christ, is a pronoun and in the context of the passage used as a direct object referring to the Elect of God. Because the spirit allows us to receive God's good news.
Which cannot happen without his intervention.The natural person cannot understand unless the spirit intervenes.
1 Corinthians 2
14.The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
John 3:16? Context again as pertains to Jesus teachings.
Best to read all of John 6. For brevity just a few excerpts:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44).
“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father” (John 6:65).
Every indwelt Christian is evidence of this passage truth. How many agree with it yet disagree God predestined them into his grace and Salvation?
And as an aside, yes I know what an idiom is. It does not give me license to dismiss
Revelation 13.
Romans 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
1 Peter 1:19-20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20.Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
We don't preach and lead people to God.
We preach and inform those who are present of God and his good news.
God calls those among those present to himself.
We don't call them to God. God calls them to himself.
''No one comes to me unless the Father draws them.''
The act of preaching itself isn't the draw. Else every service would have every unbeliever coming to faith.
Those natural minds present during the sermon can only hear,understand, what is said if the spirit enters in to them. As God said. 1Corinthians 2.
Calvinism is Biblical.
I think when scripture sustains in its words what Calvanism, and earlier reformers of the same doctrine prior, teach, those who deny the value and credibility of those scriptures by proxy via their contempt for Reformed Christianity shall be hard pressed to explain that to God when the time comes.
God, you said no one,natural person, understands the things you,God, unless your spirit allows,enters.
You said no one comes to you unless you draw them.
You said you wrote the names of your Elect whom you did call in a book before you created the world.....
But I didn't believe it because a guy ,one of many, named Calvin taught it.
Should be an interesting conversation at the judgement.
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STAFF CAUTION: This thread has been Reported for potential violations of Forum Rule 3.1 for demeaning, Rule 3.2b for superiority agenda and Rule 3.2c for criticizing others without supplying widely accepted documentation.
This type of behavior was responsible for the removal of a member just last week... and more persons will be on the outside looking in if this continues.
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This type of behavior was responsible for the removal of a member just last week... and more persons will be on the outside looking in if this continues.
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Let's address what I've said.
''...
''...Calvin himself, and later Calvinists, all affirm that God’s timelessness and His determining of all things was due to his foreknowledge which He used to establish an eternal decree.'' [29]
[28] Calvin, Institutes, III.21.5.
[29] Treier, Introducing Evangelical Theology, 116; Boothe, Plain Theology for Plain People, 81.
Election and Predestination According to John Calvin — Who Is Like You Ministries
John Calvin’s belief in election and predestination have been a source of passionate debate between Christians for hundreds of years. But what is election? What is predestination?
Ok. That's perhaps something we can chew on for fodder:
"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man."
This is a good start. I agree that the Lord can and does use any and all people of His choosing and good pleasure. That does not, however, intimate that He perpetrates injustices that are contrary to His nature, even given His Sovereignty. If one chooses to push, "...whatever he wishes to happen with regard to every man," to the extreme of God deciding FOR people that they will go to Hell, then I would say that those who believe such have a tremendous burden of proof for that; given that the scriptures in many places speak otherwise.
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.[28]"
I will not assume that the author of this statement meant for it to be taken at the exclusion of:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
I stated before that I did not believe Calvin stood on the side of forced Hell upon most. However, if he did write that in spite of, rather than in concert with, the verse above, then he was dead wrong.
Picture the saints standing along the edge of Hell, looking downward into it and its billions of inhabitants. One of the unconditionally elect, forced to have faith and therefore into Heaven, yells, "Holy is the Lord our God," and the unconditionally elect all cry out in unison, giving praise to God for His holiness.
Then, another of the elect cries out from having been caught up in the moment, "The Lord our God is LOVE!" The thunderous praises and choruses about God's holiness die out to nothing but the roar of the fires of Hell and the cries of anguish of the unconditionally damned. The striking contradiction cast a pall over the praises like an ocean wave wiping out a message of praise written in sand. They know intuitively that God did indeed deal with the predestined saved and the predestined damned in perfect holiness, and the saved elect with love, the insurmountable contradiction cannot be forced into claiming that same love was applied to those who were chosen for Hell.
Dismissing this obvious contradiction of God’s perfect love while trying to appeal to God’s allegedly choosing to not extend his saving power to the predestined damned, frankly, that doesn't equate to the idea that he is not omnipotent. Such a notion is incorrect. The cause of the error in that argument is built upon the fact that love, true, genuine love, is a moral attribute very much akin to holiness, while power isn't. Consequently, the Lord can either show or hold back the exercise of his omnipotence on the basis of moral attributes, but the nature of His absolute morality and perfect holiness, love and righteousness is understood by all true believers to be always present in perfection. Calvin, whimsically called this form of inescapable dilemma a “mystery.” Imagine that. When one can't explain it in order to defend his position, just write it off with another insurmountable claim of it being a "mystery." When one creates in his own vain philosophies a contradiction, as with anything else, its waved aside with dismissive indifference as a convenient "mystery," which is utterly contradictory to what is revealed about the God of Scripture.
So, if in fact Calvin believed the extreme all the way to his last breath, then I disagree with him, and for reasons I think scripture defends. I would love to hear from others who disagree. Any time we study the deeper things of God, that gets my attention. It's riveting. I like deep calling to deep. Don't you?
MM
I'm not going to debate Calvinism when the Biblical reformed Christian doctrine preceded him. And when that's not what I was speaking of not to in the beginning. The charge of Calvinism was from others.
Furthermore, given the timing of your post shortly after a Mod.team warning tells me this thread and my time here may be short lived.
So, I'll close with this. Your counter argument does not com[ort with either scripture nor my posts.
Particularly as pertains to what you say of God and Hell.
I understand God's total Sovereignty as potter over the clay is hard to accept for some.
However, for me when God tells me I make my plans but he sets my steps, and the dice are cast into the lap but every decision of ours is from the Lord, that my free choice is understood to still be in command of God's will.
When he tells me he aworld upon himself on the cross. Therein taking all sin out of the eorld.
t potter makes vessels for mercy and vessels for his wrath and destruction,and asks who can question it, I don't.
God is the potter. How does the clay argue against its place on his wheel?
Humans are born first separated from God. To be condemned in our natural mind ''sin nature'' as sinners.
That's first. And it is why Salvation from that state exists.
Technically, that means everyone is born destined for Hell first. And through no choice of their own.
When God of course knows this, every verse, such as the passage above relating the state of the potter and the vessels made for mercy or wrath and destruction makes sense. When reflecting upon God telling us he sent his Salvific message to be taught in parables so not all would understand and come to Salvation. It is contextually accurate as it reflects upon those vessels the potter made for his wrath and destruction.
I can't say I believe God is entirely Sovereign as the potter over his creation and then elect to cherry pick what of his message I will accept,or discard, because his teaching does not comport with what I prefer to believe about him.
When we are vessels made for his mercy I don't see how we could argue that way in order to claim vessels he said he makes for his wrath and their destruction isn't true. [The argument that says God doesn't predestine to Hell the way he predestines to Heaven.]
It has been said, not here, if God intended everyone to be saved everyone would be.
Not due to their faith but due to God's having faith in us enough to save the worlds people from sin due to Jesus taking the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. Thereby taking all sin out of the world.
But that's not how it happened.
And sadly, what is the case isn't always palatable. To some of us.
Gid bless.
Generally speaking, I've observed with interest some who try to use this as yet another proof for the idea that the Lord allegedly predetermines who is going to Hell and who is going to Heaven based upon criteria none of the defenders of the position have, as of yet, explained to any acceptable degree...at least, not in my experience.
They have always done this this at the exclusion of the context. Some pointed out that the mechanism is God's Sovereignty, and others His good pleasure and will. Again, no criteria in any of that, except to paint God's perfect love with unrecognizable colors that are not defined within scripture with the clarity of solidity we can stand upon with both feet.
Denominationalism is a force that can be said is a mechanism that establishes distinctives within alleged Christendom that enables that denomination to flourish; since unity among all believers tends to rob many a man, who wants to make a name for himself, of the fame and notoriety they seek for themselves. This is how the headship of Christ is pretended to be a reality among them, but is sadly not the case in their midst. There's not enough space in the limelight for Christ AND another man. So, denominationalism is a means by which Christ is nicely invited to stand over to one side while the man situates himself in that limelight.
This is one means by which man-made doctrines are created, perpetuated, published, distributed and expounded upon so that the denomination grows in power and strength. We all know how repetition can and does sway crowds, along with pounding on the pulpit when the point is weak in order to add emphasis where it is not deserving....making central what is peripheral at best.
So, what's everyone's thoughts about the essence of denominationalism?
MM
yes and those who are not Calvinist can say the same thing . just because it has the label of reformed . does not make all Bible
everybody has there own including you. its all in the preference when we get to heaven it will all be took care of. until then we all must try to do the best we can.. with the Good Lord help walking in the light walking in the spirit you are correct on doctrines of men . i will confess being in Christian forums you read a lot of stuff that makes you scratch your head. some things i have to look up and read on as i had never heard of it.
Hello Damascus;
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Out of respect to the author of this thread, I personally posted my convictions and feel comfortable about it. I don't feel Musicmaster and I mutually agree on every point, and I chose to move on amicably to the next forum topic. The benefit is I can step back, reflect and learn what God says in exchange with everyone.
Damascus, if you feel you have closed the discussion, then I encourage you to move on to the many other topics and get to know our other brothers and sisters here who I'm sure would enjoy getting to know you.
God bless you, sister, and your whole family.
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However, we caution all participants to honor the viewpoints of others and NOT engage in arguing scriptural interpretation.
We have a Warning Points system in effect at CFS and if the type of behavior that caused this thread to be evaluated continues, Points and Warnings will be issued. Any member reaching 5 warning points in 30 consecutive days will be given a 1 week time out. Any additional warnings after the first time out may result in a total ban.
Thank you for your cooperation.
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