Is This the Essence of Denominationalism?

[forgiven61]

I have a friend who believes God created most of the world's historic population to populate Hell, and that He did so on the basis of His own Sovereignty. When we talk about all this, I can't seem to get him to explain how sovereignty leads to injustice. His inconsistencies only magnify when he tries to explain why God would justly allow the majority to pass into Hell without having allegedly given them the ability to turn to Him for salvation. Granted, none of us can save ourselves, but we do have the many promises made to us that by calling upon the name of the Lord we shall be saved, etc.

paul wrote to the Church' at Ephesus .

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;. man made doctrine people get things cooked up in their head and dynamite couldn't budge it. if people would really study the word especially on subjects they think they have corned .. they might see somethings

 

[forgiven61]

God is all knowing and always has been. Before He created at all He foreknew what would happen and who would choose to follow Him, this does not mean that we don't get to choose it means that God knew about it before we did it. God never says "I didn't see that coming!"

agreed

 

[Damascus]

paul wrote to the Church' at Ephesus .

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;. man made doctrine people get things cooked up in their head and dynamite couldn't budge it. if people would really study the word especially on subjects they think they have corned .. they might see somethings

Agreed.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Why Did God âHardenâ Pharaohâs Heart in Exodus?

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Suddenly, the pattern changes. With the plagues of the boils (9:8-12), locusts (10:13-20), darkness (10:21-27), and death of the firstborn (11:1-10), the Scriptures say God âhardened Pharaohâs heart.â

www.crosswalk.com

1 Corinthians 2:14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Job 32:8But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

 

[Musicmaster]

We have choice. And as God tells us, those are commensurate with his will for us.

Repentance Definition - What Does Repent Mean in the Bible?

Learn about the true meaning of repentance from the Bible. Both Old and New Testament definitions reflect a change of heart and mind and how to tell if it's true repentance.

www.biblestudytools.com

Repentance is not exclusively commensurate with Salvation.

Calling people to repent of their fallen actions that were an offense to God is not the same as God calling those same people into his grace.

I would also suggest God didn't contradict himself at his word. It's difficult to face what is written in toto in scripture when God tells us something of himself that is not typically roached in sermons.

However, I would suggest those scriptures you offer to rebutt God's sovereignty do not erase what God said of himself.

Let's do the math, sort of speak, of the matter.

Before ''In the beginning...'', Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of the world that did not yet exist.
Before, ''In the beginning...'' , God tells us he wrote the names of all people whom he would save from sin and by his grace in a book. The Lamb's Book of Life.
This before the world, humans,or sin entered.

Later, Jesus in his ministry said when we had seen him we had seen the Father. He also said no one comes to him,for salvation, unless the Father calls them.

That precludes our having the free choice to find God and Salvation. Because, as Paul, under the guidance of ascended Jesus, told us the natural mind of man & woman cannot understand the things of God unless God allows it. Because without God's allowance it is those things of God are folly to them.

Jesus said he taught the Gospel in parables so not everyone would understand and come to be saved. That's why his Disciples ,as he told them,did understand. Because,as Jesus said, it was given them to understand. While others were not given to understand.

You find it hard to believe God would create some for salvation and others for Hell.

Hell was created to receive Satan and his angels in God's own time.
Then God opened Hell to receive us.

God is Sovereign. And Omniscient.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of wrath.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
God is not a man that he should lie.
Do we not believe him because we can't accept what he tells us of himself?

I would observe that to dismiss what God says of himself in his word we'd have to prove he didn't mean what he told us in those passages we take issue with.

If we accept God is Sovereign over his creation, manages everything,the visible and invisible, no thing then can be outside that scope of his control.

How much of scripture is prophecy?

Those passages inform us of God's predestination of things to come.

We make choices. They all comport with God's plan. Proverbs 16.

Acts 2

Thank you for reading me.

Repentance.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I'm not sure who stated that repentance is "commensurate" with salvation, or otherwise. It wasn't me. However, since you brought up the topic, I will say that repentance is indeed a large part of the 'mechanism' (and I use that term loosely) by which we are saved, for without it, we cannot be saved.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So, I hope you can understand and agree, at least from what is said in this verse, that repentance is indeed an entrance into the WORK of salvation that is a gift only from God. Only He can grant it, and has promised to do so to all who call upon His name

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The name, which is above all other names, points to the One who is the Source of our salvation.

So, may I ask of you how you arrived at the assumption that Jesus died for our sins before the world ever was? Have you studied down to the level of the idioms of ancient languages? If so, I'd very much like to understand how you arrived at the conclusions you stated above that are not stated in the text so far as I can see. One of the translators of the Interlinear Bible once lived here in this vicinity before he passed on to be with the Lord, and he had some very pointed statements to say about this topic, among others, and showed many things from his massive library in his home. (His library made my mouth water, but I simply didn't have the time to study it all with life getting in the way.)

Thanks for your time.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

Agreed.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Why Did God âHardenâ Pharaohâs Heart in Exodus?

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Suddenly, the pattern changes. With the plagues of the boils (9:8-12), locusts (10:13-20), darkness (10:21-27), and death of the firstborn (11:1-10), the Scriptures say God âhardened Pharaohâs heart.â

www.crosswalk.com

1 Corinthians 2:14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Job 32:8But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

pharaoh hardened his own heart unbelief there will come a time God turns people over to a reprobate mind . but all the left field theology i have no time for.

 

[Musicmaster]

Of course he doesn't.He also said no one comes to him unless he calls them. And our natural mind cannot understand his word or ways unless he lets us.

As a matter of curiosity, what does it mean to "come to" Him? How do you define that from your understanding?

MM

 

[Hopefull]

Not sure if its been mentioned but ive heard/read that Romans was meant to mean Christ was predestined, not people.

 

[Musicmaster]

For the sake of investigation that everyone here can engage with me, let's look at the actual context of a key verse used by some to say that the Lord therefore predetermined/chooses who will go to Heaven, and who will go to Hell, irrespective of any choice on their own part. Let's see if that application actually can be applied to that belief. Now, granted, some statements throughout scripture can and do have universal application, but that doesn't in any way justify misapplication in any sense of the wording, and context can still serve as a tool to bring out the intent behind what may or may not be universal in scope. After all, a closed mind is a terrible thing to waste, so I invite all to join in on exploring this topic with me so that we all may learn from the pure word of God rather than the teachings of other fallible men, no matter how long ago they lived nor how popular and famous they were and/or are.

John 6:53-71
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Dare we explore the broader context for the application of that key statement in verse 65, we can clue in on some things that I will merely point out rather than to pretend that I am a doctrinal authority over any of you.

My commentary: We can see that there were disciples Jesus had who expressed a problem they had with eating His flesh and drinking His blood, as you can see in verse 60. One will search in vain within this context to find any reference to salvation on the broader scale of mankind. This context hammers directly on the head of the disciples who followed Jesus, and those who walked away. Please read it for yourself, and share with us all how and where we can honestly, with integrity, take verse 65 and smear it over anything else of our subjective choosing. Verse 65 clearly addresses the fact that the "many" who walked away were not "given unto him," by the Father.

I love you all, and ask that you apply 1 John 2:27 to your study of this, for the Spirit of the Lord will not mislead you.

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Now I put it into your hands to seek out the Lord for His instruction through His Spirit, and for Him to verify the context that you can read for yourself, and ask yourself, "Has the Lord empowered me to apply this key statement in verse 65 outward into whatever scale of application I so desire, or is it constrained to the meaning stated within that context, which is the disciples who followed Jesus, and those who walked away?"

If you feel so empowered to apply verse 65 in whatever broadness of brush strokes you so choose, then please share with us how you arrived at such a position. Also keep in mind I am speaking broadly, to everyone here, because I have an openness to learn whatever the Spirit of the Lord teaches us.

Blessings to you all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Agreed.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Why Did God âHardenâ Pharaohâs Heart in Exodus?

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Suddenly, the pattern changes. With the plagues of the boils (9:8-12), locusts (10:13-20), darkness (10:21-27), and death of the firstborn (11:1-10), the Scriptures say God âhardened Pharaohâs heart.â

www.crosswalk.com

1 Corinthians 2:14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Job 32:8But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

Yes, I fully agree with Romans 9. He does indeed have mercy on whom He wills. The Lord does indeed have mercy on whom He will, and also extends hardening to whom He will. In those contexts, we do not see it at all touching upon salvation, and it having a limited scope of whom it is extended. I've searched that context exhaustively, and it was in vain to find any parallel with salvation without my having to force it into the context. It's the natural mind that forces meaning into any context where it is not stated nor implied. If I'm wrong, then I always invite others to show to me what I missed.

I also agree with 1 Cor. 2:14. It's absolutely true that the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Neither that verse nor its context lays a foundation for that verse referring to salvation itself. The desire for God is not limited in that context nor that verse. You see, I'm guilty in the past for having forced meaning into contexts and verses what wasn't there. Through the exercise of many corrections and challenges to read it all for what it says and what it DOES NOT say has driven me into turning my brain off to the temptations to add to the text what isn't there, and to filter what IS there so that it fits with my personal beliefs.

For me, that was indeed a hard one to die to.

Thanks for sharing these items.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Another note:

In John 6:65, the Greek verb "come" is defined in Thayer's Greek Lexicon as:

"to commit oneself to the instruction of Jesus and enter into fellowship with him, John 5:40; John 6:35, 37, 44, 45, 65"
(https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2064/kjv/tr/0-1/)

This reinforces the contextual limitations of scope to the key statement in that verse that is routinely stretched out into other elements, such as salvation. The disciples who left obviously did not have that 'drawing' of the Father to "to commit oneself to the instruction of Jesus and enter into fellowship with him, John 5:40; John 6:35, 37, 44, 45, 65".

Therefore the issue I have with forcing the element of 'salvation' into that context. Salvation is more than committing self to the instruction of Jesus AND entering into fellowship with Him. If there is no repentance, then there is no means by which one can ever enter into a desire to accept the instruction of Christ, and have fellowship with Him. John started His message to the Israelites that they REPENT as the first step each individual must choose to live out.

If anyone disagrees, then please, let us discuss this, for it is an important doctrine that has a tremendous effect upon our witness to others of the Gospel.

MM

 

[Damascus]

Yes, I fully agree with Romans 9. He does indeed have mercy on whom He wills. The Lord does indeed have mercy on whom He will, and also extends hardening to whom He will. In those contexts, we do not see it at all touching upon salvation, and it having a limited scope of whom it is extended. I've searched that context exhaustively, and it was in vain to find any parallel with salvation without my having to force it into the context. It's the natural mind that forces meaning into any context where it is not stated nor implied. If I'm wrong, then I always invite others to show to me what I missed.

I also agree with 1 Cor. 2:14. It's absolutely true that the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Neither that verse nor its context lays a foundation for that verse referring to salvation itself. The desire for God is not limited in that context nor that verse. You see, I'm guilty in the past for having forced meaning into contexts and verses what wasn't there. Through the exercise of many corrections and challenges to read it all for what it says and what it DOES NOT say has driven me into turning my brain off to the temptations to add to the text what isn't there, and to filter what IS there so that it fits with my personal beliefs.

For me, that was indeed a hard one to die to.

Thanks for sharing these items.

MM

I understand a people set in their understanding of Bible Exegesis would be intractable with regard to considering the full context of Salvation and God's having predestined the world.

What in my view sustains the aforementioned Bible study sisters and brothers observations to this point is how we cannot dismiss God's having written a book containing the names of all people whom he would save. And before he created the world where Salvation would be one an issue.

Having done so however, being a forbidden tree of knowledge was planted by God in the garden he created and judged good,as he did of all his creation, the need for Salvation was just around the corner.
God could have cursed the serpent and forgiven his ''first born'' their sin for having been innocents deceived by a wiser plotting intellect, then and there.


Then there is Jesus, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Yet another factor related to sin and salvation from it before the place where sin would enter, this world,having first appeared in Heaven with Lucifer and his rebel angels rebellion against God.

I know you said you're not aware of the slain lamb verses in scripture. Any search engine will help you locate them.

Then there is the matter of Immanuel, God with us, Jesus. Who we are told was predestined to sacrifice himself to take the sins of the world upon himself. Which for me does not make Judas a traitor but a collaborator with God's plan.

Else,how would Jesus have fulfilled that mission?

And Jesus himself,which I agreed with our Bible study partners,this is the hardest point to reconcile when laboring to deny God's sovereignty and predestination of his plans, who stated he taught in parables the Gospel so not all would understand and be saved.

Because some hearing it were meant to understand. Others not.

And if course Paul who tells us the natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to them. And because they are spiritually discerned.

Which tracks back to Jesus message regarding limiting people's capacity to understand and be saved.

It's difficult for us to accept God's full sovereignty. However,I don't think I can argue against it when I am one he has called.

Good talk. Thank you for your time. Be blessed.

 

[Damascus]

pharaoh hardened his own heart unbelief there will come a time God turns people over to a reprobate mind . but all the left field theology i have no time for.

I don't blame you.
Stick to the Bible.


Exodus 7:3-4 “But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out...my people the Israelites.”

 

[Damascus]

Not sure if its been mentioned but ive heard/read that Romans was meant to mean Christ was predestined, not people.

Is there scripture to support that?

 

[Hopefull]

Is there scripture to support that?

None that I know of. God knew everything that would come to pass before the foundation of the world. He knew Christ would come and He knew who would accept Him and who would reject Him. So He knew who was destined for heaven or hell. He didnt cause it, He just knew/knows who would choose to follow Christ and who wouldnt. God is all places and all times.

 

[Hopefull]

If some are destined to heaven and some hell why bother? If your predestined for heaven you can live and do what you want and not worry about it. If your predestined for hell, no amount of prayer or worship will help you avoid it.This is why, to me, Calvinism makes no sense.

 

[Musicmaster]

I understand a people set in their understanding of Bible Exegesis would be intractable with regard to considering the full context of Salvation and God's having predestined the world.

What in my view sustains the aforementioned Bible study sisters and brothers observations to this point is how we cannot dismiss God's having written a book containing the names of all people whom he would save. And before he created the world where Salvation would be one an issue.

Having done so however, being a forbidden tree of knowledge was planted by God in the garden he created and judged good,as he did of all his creation, the need for Salvation was just around the corner.
God could have cursed the serpent and forgiven his ''first born'' their sin for having been innocents deceived by a wiser plotting intellect, then and there.


Then there is Jesus, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Yet another factor related to sin and salvation from it before the place where sin would enter, this world,having first appeared in Heaven with Lucifer and his rebel angels rebellion against God.

I know you said you're not aware of the slain lamb verses in scripture. Any search engine will help you locate them.

Then there is the matter of Immanuel, God with us, Jesus. Who we are told was predestined to sacrifice himself to take the sins of the world upon himself. Which for me does not make Judas a traitor but a collaborator with God's plan.

Else,how would Jesus have fulfilled that mission?

And Jesus himself,which I agreed with our Bible study partners,this is the hardest point to reconcile when laboring to deny God's sovereignty and predestination of his plans, who stated he taught in parables the Gospel so not all would understand and be saved.

Because some hearing it were meant to understand. Others not.

And if course Paul who tells us the natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to them. And because they are spiritually discerned.

Which tracks back to Jesus message regarding limiting people's capacity to understand and be saved.

It's difficult for us to accept God's full sovereignty. However,I don't think I can argue against it when I am one he has called.

Good talk. Thank you for your time. Be blessed.

Either I misspoke, or you misunderstood me. I did not say I was unaware of the "slain from the foundations of the world" verse.

Also, to assume that anyone else is set in their understanding of the Bible is also a misplaced assumption where it relates to myself. Just wanted you to know that.

I didn't address, in detail, the "slain from the foundations of the world" because that's not an understanding that necessarily is central to the faith, but is discussed considerably. Based upon the language and, as I had mentioned before, the idioms of the ancient languages, in many places, are found to not have translated into English as it should be. The idea that Christ was literally crucified before the world ever was, well, that's a denial of what scholars, who know the languages far better than we, as well as the customs and lingual vernaculars, have stated that the meaning of the original that our translations originate speak to His being slain was preordained. The actual crucifixion was more about 2000 years ago in time. I'm somewhat sure we can both agree with this.

When it comes to the Book of Life, and the Lord's election, etc., the catalyst to it all is:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I have found myself utterly amazed at how this is either ignored, or is set aside under the guise of some strange, outlandish slight-of-hand casting aside of the enormous importance this plays in our understanding of His election in relation to the Book of Life and salvation in general.

Suffice it to say that I have outlined in some detail good reasons to NOT buy into the idea that God Himself made the decision in advance as to who would populate Hell, and who would populate Heaven...at the exclusion of any choice made on the part of the individual. I'm not accusing anyone here of believing such, but I have encountered some who do, and they are quite stoic in their indifferences to the scriptures and well-established scholarship on these things. They believe in the TULIP model in all its defining parameters, which utterly defies many, many verses that indicate to the contrary in various measures of those parameters.

I will agree that God knew the fall was going to happen before the world ever was. It was all within His ultimate plan, and He took perfect responsibility for what He knew was going to happen when He established that Christ would be slain for the sin He knew mankind would choose. I've written some things about all this that I'm sure some would consider blasphemous on the grounds that the things I stated are not expressly written in the Bible. They are summaries based upon what IS written...sort of filling in the gaps. I always avoided the "Thus saith the Lord...."

Predestination too is still subject to what is written in the above quoted verse. Anything along the lines of saying that God decided for all individuals as to who He would create for Heaven, and who for Hell, that's would have to be explained to me with better apologetics than what I have seen and heard thus far at this point in my life. I have thus far refused to believe that the Lord pushed His Sovereignty to the point of intentionally creating most of the world's population to pass into Hell, thus making Him a moral monster, and totally unjust by any definition we may find within His written word.

MM

 

[Major]

most all Baptist that i am aware of Dont i figure some place there is but not the ones i am aware of

Agreed. Any one can put the name "Baptist" on a sign in front of their church.

 

[Major]

If some are destined to heaven and some hell why bother? If your predestined for heaven you can live and do what you want and not worry about it. If your predestined for hell, no amount of prayer or worship will help you avoid it.This is why, to me, Calvinism makes no sense.

And that is the flaw in Calvinism expecially "hyper-calvinism".

 

[Damascus]

I think we may want to consider Zwingli, and others,predated John Calvin in reformed Christian doctrine. And they all derived the information from the doctrine from scripture.

TULIP is particular to Calvin's teaching. However its tenets are in the scriptures.
Recognizing those does not make someone a Calvinist. I'm certainly not one,for the record.

Perhaps it might be mutually beneficial amid those who Levy condemnation on those teachings to reflect on why they're hostile regarding what is in scripture.

 

[Musicmaster]

I think we may want to consider Zwingli, and others,predated John Calvin in reformed Christian doctrine. And they all derived the information from the doctrine from scripture.

TULIP is particular to Calvin's teaching. However its tenets are in the scriptures.
Recognizing those does not make someone a Calvinist. I'm certainly not one,for the record.

Perhaps it might be mutually beneficial amid those who Levy condemnation on those teachings to reflect on why they're hostile regarding what is in scripture.

Actually, Calvin did not believe that God created most for Hell in the place of their own choice. He's attributed with that teaching, but it was not what he believed as one can learn from a study of 'Institutes'.

Just wanted to throw that into the mix.

Replacement theology is also prevalent among those early writers, including Luther, and I disagree with them on that point as well, but that's another discussion entirely.

MM