Is This the Essence of Denominationalism?
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Great post.
I think their point,having talked extensively with them, is God tells us he predestined all things.
So, it is God who is the judge that sends us to the Hell he opened to receive us,after making it for Satan and his angels.
When he could just as easily save all people. Yet, from before the creation of the world that was not to occur. He predestined the saved and the damned.
Makes for interesting discussions at Bible study.
Good thoughts. Thanks for commenting.
First, the extreme of Calvinism (I say extreme because not even Calvin believed what modern and historic 'extreme' Calvinists believe), in that God intentionally created most of humanity to populate Hell, violates not only what the scriptures teach us from the very Mind of God, but it is a warped corruption of God's perfect justice. That belief is akin to them saying that God wanted men to perish, which is absolutely opposite to what He actually said:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Some have argued that the Lord was speaking only to Israel through Ezekiel.
Hmm. Well, then I would have to ask such a doubter how it is that they too can address someone specifically, or a specific group of people, and in their statement make use of universal absolutes, and protest that someone would dare limit the universal aspects of their statement to only that one person, or group of people.
Secondly, we can also observe the name of that Book:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Notice with me that the name is not "the book of death," or "the book of the second death." No. It's the book that provides the passage of people unto life, and those whose names are not in that book simply will not have rightful passage into paradise. Each of those whose names are not in the book have made the choice for themselves, not someone else. The extreme of predestination, then, as can be seen, is an absolute corruption and accusation against God Himself for the choices the lest made for themselves.
If there were a preamble to The Book of Life, I'm sure it would not have written therein a disclaimer from the Author stating that any names not therein are left out intentionally by the Author, and, of course, there's no avenue for error on the part of the Author because He has something all the rest of us don't:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
So, given that the Lord has foreknowledge that not even Satan has, He knew before the foundations of the world whose names are in that Book.
I've iterated this example before, but think it bears reiterating: Dr. John Barnett once spoke of a situation he experienced when flying back to his home in Michigan after a speaking engagement, thinking about the game that he set his DVR to record since he knew he wasn't going to be able to watch it live.
After he landed, he texted his wife and some friends that he had landed and was about to drive home. One of his friends texted the final game score. He did not want to know the outcome, but went ahead and watched the game. He recounted how His knowledge of the outcome of that game made no difference in the actions of each player that led up to the final score he knew would be the result. His foreknowledge did not one bit affect the choices those athletes made in what he watched played out before his eyes.
Those who bemoan the evils in this world have never experienced what it would have been like to live in a world where people were forcefully kept from doing evil. The two realities, freedom versus enslavement, there is no middle ground. Those people have never lived under such slavery, and would likely give thanks to the Lord for the freedoms we have now in the choices we make.
Sorry. Perhaps a bit of rambling, but important nonetheless.
MM
I would suggest commanding all to repent is not exclusively commensurate with salvation.
I don't know about Calvin or his disagreeing with the Calvinists of today. I do know that God said he is the darkness and the light and that while we make our plans God controls every step.
Further as to their point, I can't agree God didn't create people for Hell. When we are born condemned to that fate unless God calls those he predestined to his Salvation before he created the world where the first of our kind fell.
I don't think GOD predestined people to Heaven or to Hell. The predestination is where you will go depending upon the choices you make. God provided His only begotten son to take away the sins of the world if only they will choose to accept the free gift of salvation. Those who choose to reject Him are then responsible for their choice. Being responsible for ones own actions seems a lost concept on many people today.
Hmm. This takes us back to the beginning, and even before the beginning. Good points.
Generally speaking, and for the sake of the casual reader, we can likely all agree that the Lord is never surprised by anything, and so the fall of man was well within His plan.
As to His being darkness and light:
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
So, if we're looking at what He is in the context of the world, we have the above declarations. He may seem as darkness to the lost who are in rebellion against Him, but to the world, He is Light.
Having outlined above the Lord's stated desire that ALL come to repentance, leading to salvation, we can also observe these statements:
Deuteronomy 18:19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.
Ezra 7:26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether [it be] unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.
Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Matthew 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Luke 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
The following is even more damning to the extreme belief that God intentionally created anyone to help populate Hell apart from their own choosing:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There are many more clear indicators of mankind having free moral agency and therefore free will. Some in extreme quadrants of the predestination camp have tried to make use of the battering ram of "interpretation" to side-step the above, and thus transliterate it into something utterly foreign to the contexts and clear revelations within those and many other verses that betray the error of the extreme, but all people are free to believe as they wish.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
If we cannot choose for ourselves, then the language of a plethora of verses throughout the Bible make no sense, and thus render the scriptures as being little more than worthy of heckling as being no more than extreme fanaticism in the arena of dichotomy.
There are lots of self-made experts in even Hebrew who think themselves qualified to claim "will" is not from proper Hebrew, and they are free to see themselves as being twelve feet tall, having green skin and able to fling lightning bolts from their fingertips, but the reality is that the Hebrew language has more than enough precision to convey how it is translated in that verse.
Thanks, Damascus, for sharing. I often traipse off into various avenues of thought from what others say in their posts, all in the spirit of expanding upon topics to encourage healthy dialogue.
MM
Absolutely.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Scripture drops bombs like this into the oddball camps of personal interpretations, even though many have grown such a hard exterior to their sensitive skin that they easily ignore these kinds of revelations in order to hold to their pet beliefs, and they are certainly free to do so. I'm not one to take away anyone's freedom to believe as they wish, but when it comes to the nature of God, that I will address with those out there who hold to doctrines that paint a portrait of a god completely unknown to the scriptures. False gods cannot save anyone....
MM
Hello Musicmaster;
This is an excellent teaching of Is This the Essence of Denominationalism? and thank you for presenting this.
I agree with your outline and in response to your Systematic Theology which I am a fan and student, it will forever challenge me all the days of my life as a continued disciple.
Does God predestine people to perish in hell?
When we add Biblical Theology in the mix, this is saying to me that God never sends anyone to hell unjustly. The Scriptures you present refer to everyone who perishes has chosen and celebrate their sin (Darkness) without giving much thought to God (Light) or his/her choice to truly deserve eternal judgment.
In other words, God didn't make up His mind regarding Bob that he would be born, live out his life on earth in darkness, then be on his way to hell. No. Bob was born with freewill, a promise from God that along the way he will cross paths with other believers (make his freewill choice) who will introduce him to Christ, giving Bob an opportunity in a relationship with Jesus. Others prayed for Bob which opened this gift.
MM, If I may, I'll keep the Word in my guide of reaching the goal and with respect to Calvinism, Arminianism, Lutheranism, the Word didn't come from them. They are merely the source of God's teaching. Don't get me wrong. I studied these guys as well as many of us here but I always rely first and foremost on what God says.
I feel many Christians and especially non-believers (the man in the original video,) allow their flesh to get consumed with fear, don't challenge themselves with digging deeper in the study of the Word, end up creating their own doctrine of who God is.
The Scriptures you shared are to encourage us, which you have done, not to gloom and doom us, but receive the Father's love of beware in our lifetime. I'm still a growing disciple and am learning from this thread.
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Hello Damascus;
I enjoy reading your post in this topic, and around the forums. They do bless and minister to me. I feel you are on the same page but there is more in between what you posted here. Please elaborate;
" I can't agree God didn't create people for Hell. When we are born condemned to that fate unless God calls those he predestined to his Salvation before he created the world where the first of our kind fell."
This can be devastating for those who read into the Scriptures that God may have His mind made up for the handful of those who are already reserved for hell. Those handful may think God is referring to them. How can we encourage them?
As Damascus was saying we need to repent is not a request. It is actually a command from God, therefore, repenting and praying for others is being obedient.
As we pray for others who may be living in sin or have hurt you, it's important that as we're commanded to pray for them, judging someone and truly praying for them at the same time can be difficult. Please don't mix a bitter judging heart with love and prayer.
God bless you all and your families.
I think we have to read the scriptures as a consistent narrative.
We're told God wrote his Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world. We are also told Immanuel,Jesus, was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
When the last sacrificial lamb for the world's sins,Jesus/Immanuel ("'God with us''), was slain before the creation of the world, and his book containing the names of those he would save was also written before the creation of the world, I have to believe God predestined not only the fall of man into sin but also those he would later save from sin. As he said when Jesus was sacrificed before his crucifixion. And the names of whom he died to save pre-existed Golgotha.
Jesus said, no one comes to him unless the father leads ,calls, them.
He also said, when his Disciples asked why he always taught in parables, so that not all would understand and be saved.
In my talks with those people I previously mentioned they too note those teachings of and from God.
Just as is notable the one and only tree that would assure our eternal damnation being planted in the center of Eden.
It's fruit bestowed upon Adam and Eve the knowledge of Good and Evil, just as God possessed.
Yet, it was off limits.
Why plant it and having done so gaze upon all of his creation and judge it Good?
And Satan, whom we read later, was let to re-enter Heaven from whence he was cast out after his rebellion against God, made a wager with God as to Job's fielty,faithfulness to God.
And God gave him permission to test Job as he wished except to kill him.
Satan didn't re-enter heaven as a snake. Who then was that serpent in Eden? Whom God cursed to slither on his belly forever because he led Eve to disobey his order not to eat of the tree of knowledge?
As I have said, their perspective makes for interesting discussion in Bible study.
And I don't think I can say I believe the Bible as God's words if I then make excuses for myself to not believe parts that conflict with what I'm suppose to believe about God. Not when God has informed me of parts of himself through his own word.
Good points.
Isaiah 45:7 [Aramaic Bible in plain English version]
For he formed light and he created darkness, he made peace and he created evil. I AM LORD JEHOVAH, I who have done all these things
Proverbs 16:9 [Berean Standard version]
A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 16:33[BSV]
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Hello Damascus;
I agree with your post, questions, and reading the Scriptures as a consistent narrative, as it should be. We also have to understand that as unique individuals who study the Word, we will have our interpretations and views of what Scripture is saying to each one.
This does not make it inconsistent but an opportunity to hear and receive what the other disciple is saying. Is there something in text I'm missing, or is the other missing something key that I present?
As far as your last statement, we all struggle with this and how do we reconcile it? Speaking for myself, there are many, many parts of the Bible that has put me in a position as you stated. In my personal prayer time, what does God say, revisiting the Scriptures and dialogue with other believers I have found success in my personal growth in this discipline.
God bless you, Damascus, and thank you for sharing.
The pre-destination vs free-will is quite dependant o whose viewpoint one chooses ( our view from within the stream of time, or God's view which is eternal).
Our acceptannce is our choice (free-will). But from God's eternal viewpoint, He sees our choices quite outside time. He knew our choice and thus our spiritul state from creation, but tht does not mean that we had no choice.
If one likes (poor) analogies, think of it like the difference between a viewpoint of character within a movie and the viewpoint of a movie fan who has watched it and thus knows what will happen next and thru the end. the character must let the story play out, making decisions based on the part already played to find the end, but the fan has direct knowledge of the whole. The chracter (thru the writer) makes the decision. The fan's knowledge does not affect those decisions.
Character's view: Free Will
Fan's view: All the decisions of the character are unchanging.
Our acceptannce is our choice (free-will). But from God's eternal viewpoint, He sees our choices quite outside time. He knew our choice and thus our spiritul state from creation, but tht does not mean that we had no choice.
If one likes (poor) analogies, think of it like the difference between a viewpoint of character within a movie and the viewpoint of a movie fan who has watched it and thus knows what will happen next and thru the end. the character must let the story play out, making decisions based on the part already played to find the end, but the fan has direct knowledge of the whole. The chracter (thru the writer) makes the decision. The fan's knowledge does not affect those decisions.
Character's view: Free Will
Fan's view: All the decisions of the character are unchanging.
its there problem is man dont fully understand it. yes i agree the Calvinist teaching goes a bit much overboard
I understand the line of reasoning you're following, but it can't be as it seems, and I gave many good reasons why in this thread, and I also quoted this:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Foreknowledge of what, we may ask?
He knew who would do this:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
I can quote verse after verse, comment on the entire context of those verses, and the message will remain the same from any systematic study.
No offense, but what you have offered in the above post is commentary and reason bereft of actual scripture. In my posts 82, 85 and 86 of this thread, I quoted concise and clear language that systematically dismantles the idea that man has no choice in the matter as to Heaven or Hell.
So, my question is, are we all understanding you correctly, in that you believe, based upon His foreknowledge and having been slain from the foundations of the world, that we still have no choice in the matter?
I'm just trying to make sure I'm not reading into your posts anything you're not saying.
Thanks
MM
I think this part of the scripture you quoted tells the story in total. And is not in conflict with my post.
''Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father...''
I understand you may not agree with my perspective. However it is grounded entirely in scripture.
Ok, this is good. I'm glad you clarified, and I thank you for that.
Now, if I may, how does God's foreknowledge translate into His allegedly creating, intentionally, most to go to Hell, irrespective of any choice they would make on their own? I'm curious about your having left out the many other verses I quoted where the Lord called upon all to repent, and where it is said that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that all men come to salvation, and the many verses that clearly show that we have a choice to make on our own. Are you saying that the Lord violated His own will that all men be saved, and yet intentionally creating most to go to Hell?
You see, this is very fascinating to me, and here's one reason why:
1 Timothy 2:1-7
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Now, when I take into consideration all that the Lord and His apostles had to say on this topic, I've search in vain to find where it's hinted that the Lord intentionally created anyone for Hell. I've heard people speak upon the conclusion that God's foreknowledge takes away free will, and yet they generally stop right there, never explaining the premises that led up to that conclusion. What I see as the aftermath is that some believe that God went against His own will, and therefore being conflicted within.
In all fairness, I prefer to let you to speak on your own take on all this, and I'd very much appreciate your clarifications, premises and conclusions.
I have a friend who believes God created most of the world's historic population to populate Hell, and that He did so on the basis of His own Sovereignty. When we talk about all this, I can't seem to get him to explain how sovereignty leads to injustice. His inconsistencies only magnify when he tries to explain why God would justly allow the majority to pass into Hell without having allegedly given them the ability to turn to Him for salvation. Granted, none of us can save ourselves, but we do have the many promises made to us that by calling upon the name of the Lord we shall be saved, etc.
Such promises seem to ring hollow when we translate this over to the comparative arena of punishment versus reward. Who among us would walk into our children's bedroom and knowingly spank one of them for something he or she didn't do, reward the other for something they didn't have a choice in the matter to have done, and yet this is exactly what my friend seems to believe about the character of God in how He defines perfect justice.
I hope you can appreciate the dilemma in all this.
Thanks for engaging this with me.
MM
We have choice. And as God tells us, those are commensurate with his will for us.
What is Repentance? Biblical Definition and Meaning
Learn about the true meaning of repentance from the Bible. Both Old and New Testament definitions reflect a change of heart and mind and how to tell if it's true repentance.
Repentance is not exclusively commensurate with Salvation.
Calling people to repent of their fallen actions that were an offense to God is not the same as God calling those same people into his grace.
I would also suggest God didn't contradict himself at his word. It's difficult to face what is written in toto in scripture when God tells us something of himself that is not typically roached in sermons.
However, I would suggest those scriptures you offer to rebutt God's sovereignty do not erase what God said of himself.
Let's do the math, sort of speak, of the matter.
Before ''In the beginning...'', Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of the world that did not yet exist.
Before, ''In the beginning...'' , God tells us he wrote the names of all people whom he would save from sin and by his grace in a book. The Lamb's Book of Life.
This before the world, humans,or sin entered.
Later, Jesus in his ministry said when we had seen him we had seen the Father. He also said no one comes to him,for salvation, unless the Father calls them.
That precludes our having the free choice to find God and Salvation. Because, as Paul, under the guidance of ascended Jesus, told us the natural mind of man & woman cannot understand the things of God unless God allows it. Because without God's allowance it is those things of God are folly to them.
Jesus said he taught the Gospel in parables so not everyone would understand and come to be saved. That's why his Disciples ,as he told them,did understand. Because,as Jesus said, it was given them to understand. While others were not given to understand.
You find it hard to believe God would create some for salvation and others for Hell.
Hell was created to receive Satan and his angels in God's own time.
Then God opened Hell to receive us.
God is Sovereign. And Omniscient.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of wrath.
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
God is not a man that he should lie.
Do we not believe him because we can't accept what he tells us of himself?
I would observe that to dismiss what God says of himself in his word we'd have to prove he didn't mean what he told us in those passages we take issue with.
If we accept God is Sovereign over his creation, manages everything,the visible and invisible, no thing then can be outside that scope of his control.
How much of scripture is prophecy?
Those passages inform us of God's predestination of things to come.
We make choices. They all comport with God's plan. Proverbs 16.
Acts 2
Thank you for reading me.
Hello Siloam;
In the realm of this topic I agree what I blue and red-lighted your post. Whose viewpoint one chooses is always in the mix of conversation whether one's view or God's view.
I would love to have a conversation with the man in the video. My question is how do we reconcile opposing views as in this case?
Anyone's thoughts?
God bless you all and your families.
God is all knowing and always has been. Before He created at all He foreknew what would happen and who would choose to follow Him, this does not mean that we don't get to choose it means that God knew about it before we did it. God never says "I didn't see that coming!"
Of course he doesn't.He also said no one comes to him unless he calls them. And our natural mind cannot understand his word or ways unless he lets us.