Is This the Essence of Denominationalism?

[Major]

i am saying Men need step up to the plate take the call !!!! if you want to go to a church where a woman is preaching and run her off be my guest




easy i never said it was not



ok so tell me the solution to keeping women from preaching? return back to the stone age grab them by the hair drag them out? the lady i told you about a church' i was pastor at ..i had her do my mothers day service.. ya know she never preached just honored mothers with song.

Brother..........The Bible does not say that women can not pray in church or sing in church or teach in church.
My music director for 25 years was a woman.
Five of my S/S teachers were women.
The chairman of my finance committee was a woman.
Our treasurer was a woman.
My secretary for 30 years was a woman.

However, all of our deacons were MEN and our associate Pastor was a man. WHY????
Because the Bible says that deacons and Pastors MUST be MEN.

In all of my years there was never a single question or complaint or conflict with any woman who wanted to be ordained. WHY???
Because I taught the church the Word of God and not my thoughts or opinions.

The Bible says that "if a MAN desires the office of a bishop, he must be the HUSBAND of one wife".

 

[Musicmaster]

I love you like a brother.........brother, but I disagree. I do think that women Pastors and churches that condon them are ANTI-SCRIPTURAL!

There are many things that The Bible tells us that I do not like. But what I like or do not like is never the issue. If we start selecting the parts we like and don’t like, where is the credibility of any of it?

But that is just me.........I still love ya!

I don't see that we disagreed at any point in that post of mine. You will have to point out where you disagreed with me since I'm not seeing it.

MM

 

[Major]

I don't see that we disagreed at any point in that post of mine. You will have to point out where you disagreed with me since I'm not seeing it.

MM

Post #40...............
"So, every instance where the authority of scripture takes a back seat to expediency and long-standing tradition, those are things that are outside the merits and authority of scripture. That doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-scriptural, just more man-made rather than God-breathed."

THAT was my focus.

 

[Musicmaster]

Post #40...............
"So, every instance where the authority of scripture takes a back seat to expediency and long-standing tradition, those are things that are outside the merits and authority of scripture. That doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-scriptural, just more man-made rather than God-breathed."

THAT was my focus.

Ah, ok. Thanks for that clarification. Yes. My point was that socially engineered theologies are a penny a thousand within institutionalized religion. That doesn't mean they are all bad. They simply tend to be outside the scope of authority and reach for governance from the scriptures. For example, when they say that the modern, institutional pastor, in how he functions as the CEO and all the other features of the job he is hired to do, that's man-made, not God-breathed. Not wrong or unscriptural. It's just problematic for them when trying to erect the modern model of pastors on the scriptures.

Please keep in mind that's just one example from many that could be presented.

God bless, brother.

MM

 

[Major]

In case some people aren't aware, we are living in a time where (at least in the US) women are the equal of men in every calling and/or profession that doesn't require extreme physical strength. Girls/women as as educated and capable as boys/men. There is no valid reason that women cannot fulfill any and every role in the church or any other part of the body of Christ.

a) The statements in Scripture that say otherwise were written in a society that was so different than ours today as to be unimaginable. "Women" (actually teenage girls) were the uneducated property of their husbands, expected to be little more than housekeepers and to raise their children. If the man was dissatisfied, he could simply "fire her" by giving her a writ of divorce -- no questions asked.

b) Today, women in Western societies hold positions at the top of every profession. It should be any different in the Body of Christ. Period.

c) Christians are not under the law, but under grace. The New Testament, including 1 Timothy, is not a recreation of OT law. Galatians 5:1, "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Do we allow the times and our culture to alter the written Word of God?????

Actually my dear friiend.....this has nothing to do with Law or grace.

I have been in business as well as the ministry. I have hired women and promoted them to positions of leadership and they did a better job than most of the men.

They are in general great Bible teachers and well educated and spiritually mature.

However........That has nothing to do with this and everything to do with what God said.

1 Timothy 3:1-3...........
"This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous".

Titus 1:6............
"An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it."

Now then......... Jesus could have very easily chosen female Apostles if he wanted to, so this shows that he wanted only men to be Apostles.

WHY then must be the question God said that!!!

Pastors/Deacons in their role is not simply functional. They do not simply do certain things; they do not just perform functions. Rather, they are also supposed to be something: they are supposed to be symbols of Jesus Christ as they are in the position of "Priests".

So the Bible is simply saying that women cannot be what a priest is supposed to be: a woman cannot be a symbol of Jesus the same way that a man can.

Lets go deeper theologically.........Jesus is the Bride Groom and His church is the Bride. HE is the HUSBAND of the Bride and a female/woman can not be that. Women simply cannot symbolize Jesus in his role as bridegroom of the Church, in his marital sacrifice for his bride. Women cannot symbolize Jesus as a husband.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello Musicmaster; While viewing this video, the man has sad eyes and I'm familiar with his self philosophy. When men and women share this with me regarding God, Jesus or a "higher power," they will stand firm on their own doctrine like this man. But during these encounters I felt most of them were on the right track of "opening the discussion," and this gives me the opportunity to love and listen to them with an open heart. Most of these men, women and this man in the video will see through me, or know if my mind is made up and oppose them. I feel they felt respected in opening up to me, and God has prepared me what to do and say when it's my turn to share my faith with them. 1 Peter 3:15 After the discussion I will pray for them (openly or quietly,) wish them well and go my way. Whether they change their view and receive Christ at that moment is the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
I pray this man in the video will cross paths with a man or woman of God and hopefully will come to Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.
God bless you, MM, and thank you for sharing this.

If you were a woman I could accept this. but since you're not you're just defending our gender. As I said, the status and education levels of women in the Biblical era was very, very different than it is today. If you want to remain under the law, i.e., the written Word of God, as a rule book to follow, go ahead. I am guided by the Holy Spirit. What is it about Galatians 3:28 --- "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." --- that you find unacceptable?

Hello Musicmaster;

If this man in the video saw the direction this thread has gone, from his opening remarks he would rest his case.

JamesB, it's not the Biblical era, but a distinction of exegesis in historical, tradition, customs of people that have changed. The Bible does not adapt to the changing times and gender trends, philosophies or political. It's the other way around. Since the beginning, people with "insistence in their ways and thought" have repented, were saved and discipled by the prompting of the Holy Spirit and adapting to God's teaching.

In Galatians 3:28, this was not about social change, opportunities for women from the Old, New Testaments, to these here and now times. Paul firmly taught in this Passage that whether Jew, Gentile, slave, man or woman were equal in our walk with Christ.

To all my brothers and sisters, I have personally witnessed same sex marriage solemnized, including the ministers in the Methodist church. I have heard female pastors in other denominations give a sweet sermon but have failed to give adequate marriage or male counseling.

When I'm at Walgreens I always run into Nuns (in pairs) from the church across the street. I always approach them, love them and say hello. I didn't know that while one nun speaks to me, the other nun is silent and prays for me. I didn't know this.

Sad, at the end of the day I also see people are still people, like the man in the video. I reside in the San Francisco Bay Area, a population of 7 million, and minister in the center of the cesspool. God knows and sees this. He put me where He wants me to be. One thing for sure, His Word always remains consistent.

The Good News is, I have personally witnessed people who have repented, forsaken the ways of the world and their personal lives, and instead chose the narrow gate. Praise His Wonderful Name!

I can go on and on with what I'm seeing today in these times and people trends. But to be a voice and scold all of them, or dismiss my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, I choose to pray for the situation and others if I feel their lives don't not align with Scripture.

Should you and I have a different interpretation of the Passages, let's agree to pray and revisit our study. Many times I went back to my brother, sister, congregation and my wife and stood corrected. We all should be challenged in our discipleship and study of God's Word in our lifetime.

Our faith as men and women of God will include our disposition. So how does the man in the video reconcile and guard his/our heart and tongue? God always provides growth in our walk through the teachings of Jesus. Afterall, He was crucified on the cross for claiming He was/is the Son of God. That took alot of stones for being truthful.

God's Peace to all of us in this topic and blessings to each of you and your families.

 

[forgiven61]

Brother..........The Bible does not say that women can not pray in church or sing in church or teach in church.
My music director for 25 years was a woman.
Five of my S/S teachers were women.
The chairman of my finance committee was a woman.
Our treasurer was a woman.
My secretary for 30 years was a woman.

However, all of our deacons were MEN and our associate Pastor was a man. WHY????
Because the Bible says that deacons and Pastors MUST be MEN.

In all of my years there was never a single question or complaint or conflict with any woman who wanted to be ordained. WHY???
Because I taught the church the Word of God and not my thoughts or opinions.

The Bible says that "if a MAN desires the office of a bishop, he must be the HUSBAND of one wife".

easy i simply made a remark i know preacher that will not sit under woman teaching Sunday school.. as per what the Bible has to say .. yes i know the scriptures so beyond that im not sure what your point is..

 

[Major]

If you were a woman I could accept this. but since you're not you're just defending our gender. As I said, the status and education levels of women in the Biblical era was very, very different than it is today.

If you want to remain under the law, i.e., the written Word of God, as a rule book to follow, go ahead. I am guided by the Holy Spirit. What is it about Galatians 3:28 --- "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." --- that you find unacceptable?

Not so my brother. I have no need to defend us as men. I am simply obeying the Word of God.

As I said.........this has nothing to do with the law or level of education at all.

I find Gal 3:28 totally acceptable. How could I not as it is the Word of God????? However, It is about God not showing any partiality toward men of any background when it came to salvation and has nothing to do with women serving as Pastors.

IN the text you used, Paul had been making the case to the Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians in Galatia that they don't need to listen to the Judaizers. They don't need to follow the law in order to be saved (Galatians 2:4). By faith in Christ, and by faith alone, they are already full children of God Almighty (Galatians 3:7–9). They have been baptized into God's Spirit (who is in them). They have put on Christ like a robe and are covered by Him. What would they gain by trying to follow the law again?

Paul expressed to them that they have been fully united with everyone else who is in Christ. There are no lesser Christians in the family of God. Our earthly identifiers create no value distinction between us in our Father's eyes. Jews do not carry a higher rank than Greeks (non-Jews). Free people hold no greater honor than slaves. Men are not superior to women. No race is a "master race," nor any ethnicity inferior.

Post #46 is one of the reason why women can not be Pastors.

Another is that the woman was the 1st to sin in the Garden. That is called the "divine pronouncement of judgement".
The rule of the man and the submission of the woman has a juridical basis.

"It was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression." The woman listened to the serpent (the devil) and disobeyed the commandment of God to refrain from eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:2, 3). The whole creation, through Eve's lead, became corrupt though the structures and inherent principles of the creation remained intact. Yet the man, as the natural head, was held ultimately responsible. It was when he ate of the forbidden fruit that "the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (Gen. 3:7).

Another reason is the "Cosmological order of Creation." Women are not to be pastors or elders because "Adam was first created, and then Eve." The man's creation involved the endowment of leadership; the woman's creation involved the endowment of cooperation to that leadership. Even the source of the woman's creation symbolizes this leadership-follower creational principle. Woman was created from a rib taken from man's side, which suggests a dependent relationship,

​

 

[Major]

easy i simply made a remark i know preacher that will not sit under woman teaching Sunday school.. as per what the Bible has to say .. yes i know the scriptures so beyond that im not sure what your point is..

I am the "easiest" person you will ever know brother.

I responded to your post of.............
"i am saying Men need step up to the plate take the call !!!! if you want to go to a church where a woman is preaching and run her off be my guest".

I was AGREEING with you and posted the things that women could do!

 

[forgiven61]

I don't see that we disagreed at any point in that post of mine. You will have to point out where you disagreed with me since I'm not seeing it.

MM

yet in all this how do you purpose to stop women from preaching? trust me there are far worse things going on besides women preachers. ordained Gays same sex weddings . in years past i have listened to Joyce Myers. one day out of the week there is a woman that comes on the local radio station . during my drive home and no i dont turn the station .i listen to her while she may be a women. while the Bible speaks against women preaching.. she is right on in scripture context.

i dont agree with the way Tongues is used in Church services . i dont find it in scripture being slain in the spirit

 

[forgiven61]

I was AGREEING with you and posted the things that women could do!

reading to many post and running them together.. you pretty much made my point.. yes i have a a good Friend independent fundamentalist's Baptist . the woman can teach the kids class . but men do the adult class. in voting church issues/pastor the men do all the votes . paul wrote the women to be silent in Church .. i dont see him saying women say nothing.. the best s.s teacher i had in young adult class . was a woman btw she also was my 1st grade teacher..

she taught the Bible the biggest majority work done in the Church is by the ladies .. in most cases the women will come to Church when the husband wont

i have a sister n law quit coming to Church i pastor,, because my wife brother quit coming.. she stayed a few weeks. we talked i told her she needs keep coming . let him stay by himself .. that is what my wife did to me i ended up going to a revival that lasted 4weeks.. i went 2 nights of the 3rd week. on friday night i got saved..
what i am saying is lots time the wife will stay home to pacify the husband .

so yes my solution to the women preachers.. Men step up to the plate do your Job. at one time i had a list of over 20 gen baptist Churches that needed a pastor.

reports i hear many other denom have same problem. . sometime we strain at a qnat gag at a camel . i was raised in the UMC and we had one lady as pastor . sometimes in the Methodist arena the preachers are hirelings . how ever there is a group of Methodist called Wesleyan {spelling) * they are different lady's where dresses they seem to have a strict doctrine what bit info i read on them

 

[Musicmaster]

Wow. Inclusion of women in all functions within the institutional churches based upon ability, intelligence and the job market distinctives, etc.

I will once again draw the line of distinction between the Church and all those things out there most call their "church."

Frankly, JamesB is somewhat correct. The institutional model can and will do whatever it darn well wants, and it has that freedom, and exercises that freedom routinely.

Those of us who function outside of the institutional model and all its strange and weird constraints and control, we see ourselves, and function as, members of the larger body that is the Church (capital C), and women have the functions defined by God Himself outside of cultural and social influences.

In the Church, women have their functions, and men have theirs, and women are not, in spite of capability and what's going on out there in the job market, are not doctrinal authorities and bastions against heresies such as what we see going on within the institutional model. Much of the institutional model is defined by corruptions and downright evil, and those who choose to support those segments of the institutional model are answerable to God, not to me or anyone else.

So, JamesB, one will search the scriptures in vain to find where the Lord ever built the strength of His disallowance for women as teaching authorities over men upon culture, society and the job market of the world. Some things are simply absolute, regardless of when and where it was spoken. Proper rules for interpretation have shown that not all mandates are predicated upon the times and the audience of the writings. In other words, there are MANY things in scripture that have universal application, and therefore not constrained by the audience and times elements. Trying to constrain what is universal is a ploy that all liberal denominations and organizations gravitate toward in order to justify their ungodly and anti-biblical interpretations they teach to their adherents.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss these things with you all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

FYI, I was healed by Jesus Christ through the prayer of a female pastor. Any debate on the subject of women being able to teach, be in authority in the body of Christ, etc. is foolishness to me. Just because Christianity is historically sexist is irrelevant. Can anyone give me a reason for a woman not to be in a position of authority in the body of Christ, other than taking Scripture as out-of-context law?

James, I understand the strong emotion derived from your experience, but what this really boils down to is if one believes in the inspiration of scripture as having come from God, or from man alone. If from man, then the Bible is utterly worthless...no more than just a collection of man-made traditions steeped in the ancient cultures where they were written.

So, starting at that point, what is your view of the word of God? Is it God's word, or just man's thoughts and traditions?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I don't understand where you're coming from. I strongly believe that the Bible is the written word of God. (Jesus is the Word.) I didn't mention that the pastor read from Matthew's gospel, chapter11:28-30, prior to praying for me. I could feel the Spirit rising within me when I heard those words just before Jesus healed me. The woman pastor was just His instrument.

BTW, what is your view of the word of God? Is it God's word, or just man's thoughts and traditions? (What is your reaction to this question? The same as mine: insult?)

No insult. Just a question. I asked that question about where the Bible stands in your belief system because you made what appears to be a strong appeal to culture and society, and the equalities between men and women in those realms. I was simply trying to understand your originating framework for how you see scripture, because the word of God nowhere grants to women equal functionality and authority within the Church or the home and family.

So, if there's additional clarifications you would like to make along those lines, then I welcome them.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

YI, I was healed by Jesus Christ through the prayer of a female pastor.

the prayer of healing can come through male or female . the discussion is about women preachers .

 

[forgiven61]

In the Church, women have their functions, and men have theirs, and women are not, in spite of capability and what's going on out there in the job market, are not doctrinal authorities and bastions against heresies such as what we see going on within the institutional model. Much of the institutional model is defined by corruptions and downright evil, and those who choose to support those segments of the institutional model are answerable to God, not to me or anyone else.

ok so once again How do we fix it? i agree on the sanctity of scripture.... if we frown at one let us also frown at all. when we have churches going along with same sex marriage and ordinating homosexuals that is a far bigger spit in the face of God .than women preachers . i look at it this way it is them who will give account for it. will it cause them to go to hell? i doubt it . iam sure many are sincere .if they are not called of God that work will burn wood hay stubble

 

[Major]

FYI, I was healed by Jesus Christ through the prayer of a female pastor. Any debate on the subject of women being able to teach, be in authority in the body of Christ, etc. is foolishness to me. Just because Christianity is historically sexist is irrelevant. Can anyone give me a reason for a woman not to be in a position of authority in the body of Christ, other than taking Scripture as out-of-context law?

Read post #50!!!!

You were healed BY GOD, not a female pastor just as the Scriptures say.

James 5:13-15............
" Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up."

Now, I will be more than happy to debate this with you on your terms. That being the case and YOU asked so here is..................
1 Tim. 2:12.........
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

James, the CONTEXT here is a proof text is a verse or passage that someone feels is the definitive statement on a certain theological subject, so this verse is used, often without context, as proof to establish a doctrine. For many people, the Scripture in view is the proof text and the starting point on the issue of Women in Ministry, and all other scripture is seen through the lens, or the filter, of this one verse in particular.

May I also say to you James, that It is a very slippery slope to insist that we should all strive for gender equality. By that I mean that we should not make any differentiation between men and women, since they are both generally “adam” and married couples are “one flesh”.

IF that is the rational in your argument, then I’ll tell you, my wife and I are very different, and our biological composition has a lot to do with it. Minimizing the essential unique qualities of men and women leads to the permissiveness of gender confusion, hermaphrodites, and homosexuality, which Scripture is not endorsing.

 

[Major]

ok so once again How do we fix it? i agree on the sanctity of scripture.... if we frown at one let us also frown at all. when we have churches going along with same sex marriage and ordinating homosexuals that is a far bigger spit in the face of God .than women preachers . i look at it this way it is them who will give account for it. will it cause them to go to hell? i doubt it . iam sure many are sincere .if they are not called of God that work will burn wood hay stubble

Generally speaking, the SBC neither ordains nor recognizes female pastors or homosexuals.

 

[2404]

I read all posts and there are some very convincing arguments. It seems to me the flaw in many of them is that the case is built on personal merit, which is of Satan. He told Eve that she would be wise - merit. We are our own worst enemy - that we must overcome, or more correctly, the Lord does the overcoming through our trials and troubles. We must take the Word hook line and sinker irregardless of cultural differences or what ever direction the devil can move us into. The church is not a political organization, if it is than it simply becomes a religion. The church is a living organism governed by the Holy Spirit which overrides all circumstances or what ever the prince of this world can orchestrate - 'principalities and powers.

 

[Dave F.]

God has used women in the O.T. Miriam said that God spoke to her and Aaron as well as Moses, no one argued otherwise to suggest she was making it up. Deborah was a prophetess that stood with Barak as a judge. I think Paul was trying to get the men to "MAN-UP" and lead the church. In truth both sides of this debate can be argued from scripture to prove each point. It was Joseph who claimed the body of Jesus, but it was the women who found the empty tomb.