Israel's role in the end times

[Dusty]

Hi Jax,

I get them in my inbox and you can too.

WHO ARE WE?

For those who are new to the list, Bridges for Peace is a Christian charitable organization, headquartered in Jerusalem, Israel. Since 1977, we have been working to build Christian–Jewish understanding and support for the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. We do this through 14 different aid projects, and by disseminating information about Israel and teaching Christians about the Hebraic roots of Christianity. We have national offices in Israel, the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, South Africa, Japan, and Australia. Our Spanish Resource Center is in Jerusalem, Israel.

To receive more information and our other publications, send your e-mail and postal mailing address to [email protected]

We also invite you to visit our Web site at http://www.bridgesforpeace.com



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[Michael]

Hi Jax,

I get them in my inbox and you can too.

WHO ARE WE?

For those who are new to the list, Bridges for Peace is a Christian charitable organization, headquartered in Jerusalem, Israel. Since 1977, we have been working to build Christian–Jewish understanding and support for the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. We do this through 14 different aid projects, and by disseminating information about Israel and teaching Christians about the Hebraic roots of Christianity. We have national offices in Israel, the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, South Africa, Japan, and Australia. Our Spanish Resource Center is in Jerusalem, Israel.

To receive more information and our other publications, send your e-mail and postal mailing address to [email protected]

We also invite you to visit our Web site at http://www.bridgesforpeace.com



WEEKLY UPDATE SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION
Feel free to forward this update information to anyone on your e-mail list. To receive it, all they need to do is visit our Web site and click on “Subscribe Now!“ on the home page.

Thanks Dusty, i went to the site and registered. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

 

[PreciousMessage]

The Land of Cannaan is the New Earth

Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hi LA-girl,

Your points are well reasoned out.

Something to consider:

Read the prophecies of Isa, Jer, and Eze, and see how often the various nations are directly appealed to. This shows that God was not then the God of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles. When Israel at last refused to fulfill their mission, He sent them into captivity. A heathen King, Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged God throughout the whole earth. King Cyrus and other Persian kings also made known the one true God.

Christ has overcome (Rom. 8:1-4) and has all power over heaven and earth. Therefore His name is Israel, and and is called that name. "The LORD hath called me from the womb ... And said unto Me, Thou are My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified" (Isa. 49:1-3). There can be no doubt that Scripture primarily refers to Christ, as we can see by reading it. Will we be "one who has prevailed" at last?
The promises were not just for the Jews, but to all that were "far off." (See Acts 2:39; Isa. 57:19). Abraham, the head of the Jews, was a Gentile, "that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also" (Rom. 4:11,12). When Christ came, He said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and showed them at that moment who the lost sheep of Israel were by sending healing to a believing heathen woman (Matt. 15).

The word church means "called out." "This is he, that was in the "church in the wilderness," which the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, .." (Acts 7:38).

There is only one church and it is Christ's body (Eph. 1:19-23), and there is only one body. "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling" (Eph. 4:4).
God is Spirit, although He is a real God. Christ had a spiritual body after His resurrection, yet He was a literal being, and could be handled the same as other bodies.

Any attempt to make the promises apply to any other than those who are Christ's through the Spirit, is an an attempt to nullify the promises of the Gospel of God. "If ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29).
“I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, ... the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.†(Gen. 17).

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16). It is not the "seed" without Abraham, he must be there! Therefore the possession of the land of Canaan, according to the promise to Abraham, involves the possession of everlasting life. But immortality is not received until the coming of Christ and the resurrection. Abraham understood this; for even while he was in the land of Canaan, he sojourned in it as in a strange country, desiring and looking for “a better country, that is an heavenly†(Heb. 11:9-16); and the fact that he “died in faith, not having received the promises†shows that he knew that he was to receive it at the resurrection.

But when the land of Canaan is given to Abraham for an everlasting possession, the restoration of all things will take place (Acts 3:20, 21). In reality, the possession of Canaan will be the whole earth. So Paul, speaking with direct reference to Genesis 17 says, “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.†Rom. 4:13.

Therefore, “according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13). This is the promised inheritance, which is assured to us by the Holy Spirit.

John

 

[PreciousMessage]

Is Spiritual opposed to Literal?

It is really sad to see all the christians who are being fooled by this literal Israel-conflict (IMO). Christians who think that God is supporting violence against sivilian and children. The same God who told us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek?



To read the whole article visit:
www.propecycode.com
Choose: watch online: Israels temple in prophecy: Additional study: Spiritual Israel!

Hi LA-girl,

I support your Biblical assessment regarding "spiritual Israel."

Even our "secular" government supports the "literal" ideals of Israel. Interesting indeed. Also, there seems to be a strange separation between the New Testament Church and Israel, as if they are separate from one another.

Consider the following in which I may be sharing some of your same biblical facts:

The word “church”, from the original means “called out.” The Israelites were “called out” of Egypt. In the Old Testament they are referred to as “the congregation,” And Stephen, in his talk before the Sanhedrim, spoke of Israel as “the church in the wilderness.” “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our father: who received the lively oracles to give unto us” (Acts 7:38). Just as Christ has many names in the Bible, so does the church.

There is but one church, for the church is Christ’s body (Eph. 1:19-23), and there is one body (Eph. 4:4). “There is one body, and one Spirit …” Christ says, “My sheep hear My voice,” “and they follow Me” (John 10:27). “The house of God” is the church of the living God” 1 Tim. 3:15). Christ and Moses are in the same fellowship (Heb. 3:2-6).

The “church in the wilderness” was the true church of Christ; for we are told “they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4).

The gospel was first preached to the gentiles, for Abraham was a Gentile, in other words, a heathen. He was brought up as a heathen, Terah was his father, and “served other gods” (Josh.24:2). So the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles was not a new thing in the days of Peter and Paul. The Jewish nation was taken out from among the heathen, and it is only by the preaching of the Gospel to the heathen that Israel is saved. (See Acts 25:14-18; Rom. 11: 25, 26).

The Gospel was given to Abraham in these words: “In thee shall all nations be blessed.” It should be stated here that the two words “heathen” (“Gentiles,” in R.V.) and “nations,” in verse 8, come from the same word in the Greek. In both the Hebrew and the Greek “the heathen” and “the nations” are the same. Abraham, by nature a gentile, came out of the land of Ur,-- a Chaldean or Babylonian, preached righteousness by faith.

As we know, Abraham had two sons, one by a bondwoman, and the other by a freewoman; one after the flesh, the other born after the Spirit. Many can be perplexed with respect to the "literal" and the "spiritual" seed of Abraham. Many talk as though the word "spiritual" were opposed to "literal." Actually, "spiritual" is opposed only to fleshly, or carnal, if you will. The true seed of Israel are only those who are spiritual. Christ had a spiritual body after His resurrection, yet He was real.

Who are Israel? Jacob was given the name Israel because of his victory in Christ. It's not the name that brings the blessing, but the blessing brings the name. Jacob did not possess the name by nature, nobody else can either. A Jew is syncronous with the name of Israel. An overcomer who praises the Lord. And "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh: ... is one inwardly ...of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God" (Rom. 2:28, 29).

Gentiles, heathen in the sense of the word, have no rights to the kingdom of God in their natural condition. Only Israelites will share the kingdom with Him; for Israelites are overcomers, and the promise is, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21). All Israel will be saved.

God is the author of "irony." The disciples had a misconception, only literal Israelites could really be saved. To eradicate their faulty understanding, Jesus declared, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24). At that very moment Jesus put a blessing on a poor, despised, gentile, Cannanite woman, a descendent of the "heathen" who inhabited the land before the days of Joshua. Jesus revealed to the unbelieving disciples that the Cannanite woman was an Israelite indeed. Sadly, this unbelief still greatly exists today. “God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him" (Acts 10:34, 35).

blessings,

John

 

[GordonSlocum]

Fr. Onesimus:

In my opinion we should not support the nation Israel in every violence act they commit only because it is Israel. I'm not sure we are to support violence of any kind, especially as the literal Israel is not what we should have our eyes focused on at all, but the spiritual Israel (the true church).
Are the conflict in the middle-east an expression of the commandment Jesus commanded us: to love our enemies and turn the other cheek?

Please read the whole article I quoted from in my first post. It should be a real eye-opener regarding: Who is todays true Israel!

The majority of Islamic Nations have as their goal to wipe the nations of Israel of the face of the Map. Some avow it daily. This view is a well-documented goal. No one condones unjust acts regardless of who they are. However, Israel is in a constant state of war, and most nations of the world are asking them to lay back and be annihilated, do it this way or that way, we don't want to upset the Islamic nations who want to wipe you off the face of the earth.

All of the articles in the world accusing Israel, in my opinion, can't measure up to the open constant hate stated and displayed against Israel.

Before Israel moved into the land of Israel, the land had virtually been abandon by those that ruled it in the past. Israel brought restoration to the land. Now that they have restored the land the same ones that destroyed it now want to do it again.
The real motive is all the peoples of the world are anti God’s plan and this is the true motive. Satan is moving and shaking among the godless nations of this world. It is a spiritual war played out physically - directly apposed to anything God doing.

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

Israels military generally reacts when their country is attacked or in pre-emotive cases they will go after people who are planning their citizens harm. I have yet to see an Israelite strap on a bomb and kill innocent women and children -

 

[PreciousMessage]

Islam

The majority of Islamic Nations have as their goal to wipe the nations of Israel of the face of the Map. Some avow it daily. This view is a well-documented goal. No one condones unjust acts regardless of who they are. However, Israel is in a constant state of war, and most nations of the world are asking them to lay back and be annihilated, do it this way or that way, we don't want to upset the Islamic nations who want to wipe you off the face of the earth.

All of the articles in the world accusing Israel, in my opinion, can't measure up to the open constant hate stated and displayed against Israel.

Before Israel moved into the land of Israel, the land had virtually been abandon by those that ruled it in the past. Israel brought restoration to the land. Now that they have restored the land the same ones that destroyed it now want to do it again.
The real motive is all the peoples of the world are anti God’s plan and this is the true motive. Satan is moving and shaking among the godless nations of this world. It is a spiritual war played out physically - directly apposed to anything God doing.

Hi,

When will the end of the world come? "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to ALL the nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14). We as Christians are to preach Christ and Him crucified.

A preacher of righteousness once stated in the year 1893, a seemingly very prophetic insightful statement:

"WE are reminded that we are by no means to think of Mohammedanism as a system of religion that is dying out, ... Mohammedanism is not less aggressive now than it was in the days of Mohammed. It is a religion of force, and can be successfully met only by the Gospel of peace. While it is not dying out, it is a dead religion, in that it has no spirit of life in it. The greater its activity, the greater the death that it causes. Therefore it must be met with the Gospel of life. Mohammedan missionaries need only zeal, and a knowledge of the theory of Mohammedanism. Christian missionaries must have the zeal and knowledge that comes from the life of Christ in the soul.” End Quote

It is important to note that if the land of Israel were to repent and turn to the Lord today they would not have to use earthly weapons, for the battle would belong to the Lord. "For the weapons of our welfare are not carnal." Blessed are the peacemakers. Today, is the day of our salvation. One only has to notice, that when Israel mingled with world and disobeyed the gospel, God would allow the enemies to come in, hence, Israel would repent and God would protect them. History is repeating itself. Will the land of Israel turn to the Lord? Remember, Israel are those who believe as Abraham did.

John

 

[Dusty]

Isaiah 2:2
In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.


Daniel 11:6
After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he and his power will not last. In those days she will be handed over, together with her royal escort and her father and the one who supported her.


Hosea 3:5
Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.


Micah 4:1
[ The Mountain of the LORD ] In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

Amen- God has not forgotten Israel even if they forgot Him- there will be a day of awakening for these sons of Abraham.

 

[Jasher]

The Three Groups

The Church is the Bride of Christ and enjoys the 1,000 year Honeymoon upon earth (chapter 20 vs. 4). They reign as rulers kings and priests..... (1 Peter 2:9 and Rev 1:6).

The 144,000 serve as body guards of the Lamb and His Bride. ..... (chapter 14 vs. 4).

The Gentiles saved during the Tribulation Period will be Temple Servants, waiting on Christ and His Bride. They serve in the Glorious Temple ... (described in Ezekiel... chapters 40 – 48)

Note: Where are the Jews?

Chapter 7 the 144,000- this group cannot be the Church, for the church is already in Heaven. (chap. 4 vs. 1) Also the Church is not Jewish but composed of all races, peoples and tongues.

The 144,000 represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph and Benjamin...
Jewish names .........head up Jewish Tribes in a Jewish Nation- Israel.

The book of Revelation was not written to us - it was written to the Christians of the first century. So we only know what it means today by discovering what it meant to them back then.

The first thing you have to explain is why this isn't the classical list of the twelve tribes. John has drawn on the Old testament for many symbols - it doesn't mean the twelve original tribes. Here is what it does mean in my view.

THE LISTING OF THE TRIBES (144,000) IN REVELATION

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and it is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.â€

Reuben - who sees the son

Gad - a band; a troop

Asher – happiness

Naphtali - that struggles or fights

Manasseh - forgetfulness

Simeon - that hears or obeys

Levi - associated with him

Issachar - reward; recompense

Zebulun - dwelling; habitation

Joseph - increase

Benjamin - son of the right hand

(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the symbolic picture of the 144,000 is a company of the people of God for all ages - people who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. Good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni†that means “son of my suffering.†Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin†– son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

Reference
Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out of the classical list of tribes? If you look up their definitions you will quickly see why they were not included in the list given in Revelation.

Ephraim – not sure

Dan - judgment

God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in several places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different?

Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed†they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in 95AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols†and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events. It doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

 

[PreciousMessage]

The loftiness of man shall be bowed down.

Isaiah 2:2
In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.


Daniel 11:6
After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he and his power will not last. In those days she will be handed over, together with her royal escort and her father and the one who supported her.


Hosea 3:5
Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.


Micah 4:1
[ The Mountain of the LORD ] In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.

Replying to your texts:

The text quoted does show the lofty and exalted position of “the church” in the last days; but those who are so zealously laboring for that end should remember that “the day of the Lord of hosts,” which immediately follows such a union of church and State, “shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low.” “And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low; and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.” Verse 12, 17.

The Lord does not say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD" the people do. There is no invitation from the Lord.

This is the result toward which those look who shout, “The world for Christ.” Notice, the scripture does not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that “many people shall go and say” that certain things shall take place. That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outside show, and not real service to God, is indicated by the next four verses, which state:

“Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not.”

These verses show while they profess to know God, in works they deny him.

blessings in Christ,
John

 

[PreciousMessage]

All scripture is written for our instruction

The book of Revelation was not written to us - it was written to the Christians of the first century. So we only know what it means today by discovering what it meant to them back then.

The first thing you have to explain is why this isn't the classical list of the twelve tribes. John has drawn on the Old testament for many symbols - it doesn't mean the twelve original tribes. Here is what it does mean in my view.

THE LISTING OF THE TRIBES (144,000) IN REVELATION

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and it is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.â€

Reuben - who sees the son

Gad - a band; a troop

Asher – happiness

Naphtali - that struggles or fights

Manasseh - forgetfulness

Simeon - that hears or obeys

Levi - associated with him

Issachar - reward; recompense

Zebulun - dwelling; habitation

Joseph - increase

Benjamin - son of the right hand

(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the symbolic picture of the 144,000 is a company of the people of God for all ages - people who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. Good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni†that means “son of my suffering.†Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin†– son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

Reference
Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out of the classical list of tribes? If you look up their definitions you will quickly see why they were not included in the list given in Revelation.

Ephraim – not sure

Dan - judgment

God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in several places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different?

Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed†they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in 95AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols†and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events. It doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

When it comes to "tribulation" it refers to what believers suffer through. John 16:33. John, in Revelation 4 was told to "come up here." John did not actually go to Heaven in Rev. 4:1; he was simply taken up in a vision, while his toes remained on Patmos. Secondly the Church is on Earth after Revelation 4. How do we know this? Because Rev. says the beast will make "war with the saints" in Rev. 13:7.

Wherever there are saints, there is the Church. 1 Cor. 14:33 states, "churches of the saints."

Why would God leave His Church prophecies from John's day until the end of times? The populist view is that from the resurrection to the rapture, the majority leap over Romes' demise, the great apostasy, Islamic origins, papal power, the Dark Ages, the inquisition, and the Reformation almost entirely. With Holy Spirit perception, historicists not only see mighty prophecies fulfilled through out the Book of Revelation, but papal and Islamic scourges. Did you know that Islam is mentioned in the Bible after Rev. 4, so is the Papal power? Are Christians still amongst us, absolutely.

blessings in Christ,
John

 

[Jasher]

Part 1 of 2
What are last days? Time was broken down into the former days, which was before the captivity and the latter days as after the return from exile. The last days were the days of the Messiah. Peter said that the last days spoken by Joel was in his day. So the last days have been here for almost 2,000 years. It's not easy to answer the question about Israel in our day – it can't be done in a few paragraphs. But here goes...

Has God abandoned his ancient people?
Well of course not. His plan was to save the whole world and the family of Abraham had the absolute honor of being those through whom his plan of salvation would be carried out. Then what is he doing now and in the future in present day Israel? There is a popular eschatology that foresees all sorts of miraculous events, but I don't think they are very accurate or realistic. I think the real answer to this is to look at what God has done in the past and then to project forward from today. So this will be a different view from what you are accustomed to.


What has he done in the past starting from NT times.

1. Endless irrefutable miracles of healing in Israel via Jesus and his disciples.
2. Jesus was raised from the dead in three days – the body was never found.
3. Earthquake on day of Crucifixion. Darkness as the prophet said.
4. In the Temple a 30 ton stone lintel fell on the day of crucifixion that the veil or curtain was hung from, this tore the veil or curtain in two from the top to bottom. This curtain was very thick and heavy - and was approx 80 foot high by 25 foot wide and it covered the entrance of the Holy Place – not the Holy of Holies as some teach. It was said to take 200 priests to hang this beautiful curtain. By the way it was linen dyed with three different colors. The top was blue to signify the sky or heaven - God and his domain. The bottom was dyed crimson, which is an earth color representing man and his domain on the earth. The middle was purple, which is the result of mixing blue (God) with crimson (man), which is a picture of Jesus who is both God and Man - Jesus is represented by the purple.
5. The Chamber of Hewn Stone in the Temple was destroyed by the earthquake. This is where the Grand Sanhedrin met to conduct court. Jesus' trial was the last that the Sanhedrin ever held there. They had to move to the “Trading Place†also in the Temple compound. Another message for the Jews.

The concept of an all powerful God coming to earth as a humble member of humanity and dieing for his creation is a thought that would never enter the human mind in a million years. God carried out his plan surreptitiously. In fact the record shows only two people who really knew what was going on in Israel. This was old Simeon and old Anna the prophetess. The disciples were all looking for a literal kingdom right up to the end just like the crowds on the day of the triumphal entry.


But when the sacrifice of Jesus was complete, then it was no longer necessary to work in secrecy any more – the Good News could be broadcast from every hill and mountain to the whole world. Peter on the day of Pentecost basically said that they had killed the Messiah, but now all could come to him and receive forgiveness. And thousands did. From that time forward God gave Israel 40 years to repent. If they did not - he had told them that he would come to them in judgment. This was the same as the first temple of Solomon – he also gave them 40 years to repent and if they did not do so they went into captivity to Babylon. The Christians continued to preach Jesus until the stoning of Stephen and then the Church mostly moved out of Jerusalem to other cities and then the whole world. The Apostles went underground to escape the wrath of one - Saul of Tarsus.


After the crucifixion the forty years began. God was still active in giving signs to Israel just like before. Over the next forty years the following happened. (30AD to 70AD)

1. Every night for 40 years the western most lamp on the menorah went out. This was the lamp that they never extinguished – not even for maintenance. It was left burning day and night – a kind of eternal flame. This was the lamp closest to the Holy of Holies. By the way they could only use olive oil in the Menorah from beaten olives – another reference to Jesus.
2. In the ritual of the scapegoat – the priest drew lots to determine which of the two identical goats would be the sacrifice and which one of the two would be the scapegoat, which would be set free. In that entire forty year period the priest would reach into the leather bag and draw out the black stone and never the white. Statistics show that the odds of drawing 40 out of 40 is about 1,099,511,627,776 to one – yes over one trillion to one. This ritual also relates to Jesus as well. Remember when Pilot released Barabbas at the trial of Jesus? History shows that his first name was also Jesus. So his full name means “Jesus, The son of the high father.†This is identical to Jesus Messiah who had the same identical name and title – both goats were identical. This is the symbolic meaning of the ritual. Jesus the criminal was set free – the scapegoat - the sinner - set free by the atonement; and Jesus the Messiah was the sacrificial goat who was a sin offering on the day of Atonement.
3. The High priest wore on his person a scarlet cloth or cord. He went into the Holy of Holies only once per year on the Day of Atonement. The cloth was a report card of sorts. If God was pleased with them it would turn white, If God were not pleased it would remain scarlet. It would be different over the years, but starting in 30AD until the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem - it never once turned white in 40 years.
4. The Temple doors to the Hekel chamber would open of their own accord every night just like the other phenomena. These were the doors to the Holy Place just behind the 80 foot curtain that had split. They interpreted this as a bad omen because of the passage in Zechariah, which indicated the burning of the Temple.

This was commonly known in Israel because there were a lot of priests that rotated duty in the Temple and it was a miraculous sign every day and everyday. Wouldn't you catch on after awhile? When did this all start?

 

[Jasher]

Part 2 of 2
Continued
Then in 66AD the rebellion or end began with a conflict in a Synagogue where a vengeful merchant blocked the entrance to a Synagogue and this grew and grew until the rebellion was in full fury in 67AD. But this was not the end of the signs and warnings. A brilliant light appeared over the alter one night in the Temple, which lasted for a half hour and then it left. It was said to make the temple as bright as daytime. One account by a Rabbi Jonathan said that the Shekinah glory departed the temple on Pentecost 66AD and hung over the top of the Mount of Olives for three and a half years – the very place where Jesus was crucified and ascended. This was the very same thing that happened just before Solomon's Temple was destroyed. Both temples were destroyed on the same day of the same month about 600 years apart.


Also on that same day of Pentecost 66AD at night all 24 Priests on duty heard a commotion and a loud roar and a voice like an army saying,â€We are departing hence.â€


Josephus also reports eyewitness accounts who saw chariots in the sky and battalions hurtling through the clouds and encompassing the cities. There was a star shaped like a sword and a comet that was visible for a year.


God gave Israel signs and wonders all through this forty year period and my list is not complete. Then the city fell into total corruption and violence when the terrorists took over the temple. Second Peter and Jude were letters of warning to the Christians not to become involved with the rebellion against Rome, but many did and this latent zealot mentality yearning for freedom from Rome divided the Church and caused a great falling away - just like the Apostles foretold. These zealot minded Christians were perverting the teaching of the Apostles and they remained in Jerusalem and suffered through the siege and destruction of the city in which some 1,100,000 perished out of an estimated 2,500,000 who were there for passover. The non zealot Christians escaped to Pella.


A second revolt occurred in135AD and this was the last. The Jews were once again dispersed all over the known world again. The once and for all time sacrifice was made and the Old Covenant was now gone forever. A new Temple would not need to be restored ever again - there was no need for it. The only temple that remains is the spiritual Temple that Jesus built when he arose from the dead – like he said he would do. This is Ezekiel's temple – you know the Temple that only has ONE Tamid (lamb) sacrifice a day. A single lamb. No court of women, no court of Israel, no court of gentiles – whatever could this mean?


But this was not accepted by the Jews and they continued with the Old Covenant as before. Except that God is now operating in the New Covenant. They made three attempts to rebuild the Temple, but were frustrated in every attempt. The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.


Approximately 180,000,000 people lost their lives in war in the 20th century alone. The greatest single wartime loss was WWII with 55,000,000. The European Theater alone lost 26,000,000. Actual Jewish losses were a staggering 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 by non partial calculations – not political calculations.


The Christians had been nagging the Jews to return to their ancient land as far back as the time of Oliver Cromwell, who lived in the early 1600's. The present day Israel was established by total corruption and violence. If you want to know the other side of the story you need to read “The Zionist Connection" written by a Jewish man named Alfred M. Lilienthal 1983. Without the power of America – it would not have happened. It was not an act of God, but rather political manipulation and intrigue.


Israel began with a terrorist movement with the Stern Gang and the Irgun Zwai Leumi. Gangs that attacked a quiet Arab village Called Dier Yassin and purposely butchered the inhabitants throwing their bodies down a well. Then with loudspeaker trucks told the people to flee – 800,000 of them did and were never allowed to return to their homes. Lillienthal's book is full of accounts of the crooked and evil ways that the Jews were using to appropriate the Palestinian's land and possessions. The Jewish Arab conflict was so one sided that in decades past I would often speak up for the Palestinians. But no more.


If your neighbor is mad at you and keys your car all the way around - you will have my sympathy. But after you puncture all his tires repeatedly with an ice pick – you don't. It doesn't matter anymore who started it – the only hope is to come up with a settlement and stop the violence. Israel has made concessions to the Palestinians on a couple of occasions, but it is only seen by them as a victory and the violence continues. The radical Palestinians are not negotiating in good faith, but rather are driven to the annihilation of Israel – an agenda which I will not tolerate personally.


I said all of that to draw this conclusion: The Jews have treated the Palestinians unjustly in the earlier days and have filled them with a terrible resolve. The Jews have taken a tiger by the tail and can't let go or they will be devoured. Is God in this – of course he is, but he's letting them do their own thing and ratcheting up the pressure on them to break that hardness that they are so famous for. It's working – the number of Kahillits in Israel is growing by leaps and bounds. Nothing new because this is his standard modus operandi for bringing people into the kingdom. He does it everywhere – this is symbolized by the riders on the horses in Revelation.


How about a new temple? It will never happen because as I stated before - God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice has been made. God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews into the New Covenant. Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple – is there a pattern here?

 

[Michael]

That was excellent. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Jasher]

That was excellent. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks Michael - your comment alone makes the two hours it took me to write it worthwhile.

 

[PreciousMessage]

New and Old Covenant

Part 2 of 2
Continued

But this was not accepted by the Jews and they continued with the Old Covenant as before. Except that God is now operating in the New Covenant.

Thanks for your determination to share with me brother. Although, neither do I believe that God has intended for the Jews to build another temple.

Also, I'm really not sure of your point, the end conclusion. It may rest on me, not you.

But I will say that I believe that the Old and New Covenant are not matters of time, but of experience as pointed out by Paul.

Paul speaks of two covenants. "Abraham had two sons; the one by a bondwoman, [one of works], the other by a freewoman through promise. The New Covenant as soon as the fall. For the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.That is the new covenant promise. The old covenant is based on the bondwoman which leads to bondage. God has only one plan of salvation for all time. It is through the shed blood of Christ Jesus. Gal. 4:21-31.

John S

 

[adonaicole]

I believe that in the last days...

Israel will be surrounded by armies. Outgunned, outnumbered in soldiers, tanks, airplanes. God will miraculously deliver Israel, in 7 days and the defeated armies will report visions of angels in the skies defending Israel. Not only will they not lose land, they will gain, including Jerusalem.

O' wait, this one already happened.

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

Every aspect of the re-emergance of Israel was a miracle.

 

[adonaicole]

Every aspect of the re-emergance of Israel was a miracle.

I so agree totally and it was all prophecied thousands of years ahead of time. Our God is an awesome God.

"Can these dry bones live? Thou knowest Lord."

Whenever I read these words I remember seeing pictures of Jews in the concentration camps. They were nothing but bones, dry bones in whom was no hope, but God used those "dry bones" to build a nation and an army. Glory to God in the highest.:israel: