Israel's role in the end times

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]These comments bring to mind my experiences from when I was 12 years old back in 1954. There was an evangelist who came to our local AOG Church and really packed them in with sermons on subjects like “the atomic bomb found in the book of Revelation” and “When Israel is invaded by Russia.” It was so sensational and exciting we couldn't hardly wait to get to the service. I'm still waiting for the latter to happen after 54 years. [/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]All this was to happen within one generation of 40 years. That ended in 1988 (40 + 1948) So the theology had to be changed just like the “return” date setters. So it was revised from the founding of Israel to the date of the six days war of 1967. (1967 + 40) The theology was updated to 2007. So at the end of this year it will have to be re-guessed again. Ezekiel 38-39 is an apocalyptic account of the Maccabean period of history – it is already in the past. The newspapers are used daily to constantly upgrade and revise the Dispensational view – it changes frequently, but never comes to pass. [/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]The Dispensational view is built on the dualism of Gods plan for gentiles and Jews, a rejection of history, pulling scriptures out of context, and taking apocalyptic passages literally.[/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Someday you will be like me looking backwards in time wondering why none of this has come to pass. [/FONT]
 
Never believe a date setter- God will not contradict His Word!
 
PreciousMessage said:
Hi,

When will the end of the world come? "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to ALL the nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14). We as Christians are to preach Christ and Him crucified.

A preacher of righteousness once stated in the year 1893, a seemingly very prophetic insightful statement:

"WE are reminded that we are by no means to think of Mohammedanism as a system of religion that is dying out, ... Mohammedanism is not less aggressive now than it was in the days of Mohammed. It is a religion of force, and can be successfully met only by the Gospel of peace. While it is not dying out, it is a dead religion, in that it has no spirit of life in it. The greater its activity, the greater the death that it causes. Therefore it must be met with the Gospel of life. Mohammedan missionaries need only zeal, and a knowledge of the theory of Mohammedanism. Christian missionaries must have the zeal and knowledge that comes from the life of Christ in the soul.†End Quote

It is important to note that if the land of Israel were to repent and turn to the Lord today they would not have to use earthly weapons, for the battle would belong to the Lord. "For the weapons of our welfare are not carnal." Blessed are the peacemakers. Today, is the day of our salvation. One only has to notice, that when Israel mingled with world and disobeyed the gospel, God would allow the enemies to come in, hence, Israel would repent and God would protect them. History is repeating itself. Will the land of Israel turn to the Lord? Remember, Israel are those who believe as Abraham did.

John
Click to expand...

I am not exactly sure how to understand your view. Christians are killed daily in the land of Islam. Christian women are raped, men are torched in from of their families, beheaded, beaten, crucified upside down and more. These sold out godly believers are the archenemy of Islam.

It is my humblest of opinions that in light of the actions against real and professed believers that Israel lost or saved at this point would not change the hearts or gain physical protection for them.

Yes, as the stage grows closer to the final week of Daniel and the second coming God will intervene in a mighty saving way.

Gordon
 
To have the mind of Christ, Phil 2

GordonSlocum said:
I am not exactly sure how to understand your view. Christians are killed daily in the land of Islam. Christian women are raped, men are torched in from of their families, beheaded, beaten, crucified upside down and more. These sold out godly believers are the archenemy of Islam.

It is my humblest of opinions that in light of the actions against real and professed believers that Israel lost or saved at this point would not change the hearts or gain physical protection for them.

Yes, as the stage grows closer to the final week of Daniel and the second coming God will intervene in a mighty saving way.

Gordon
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts we me Gordon. Consider the following:

When Jesus had been betrayed into the hands of His enemies, and a mob of man came to seize Him and put Him to death, Peter drew a sword in His defense. The blow just missed the head of one of the gang of murderers, and cut off his ear. “Then Jesus said to him, Put up again thy sword into his place; for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.†Matt. 26:51, 52. And then, as an evidence that He came not to take life but to save it, Jesus healed His wounded enemy. Luke 22:50, 51.

Speaking softly, How then can any of His followers fight in defense of themselves, or even of their brethren who are persecuted? The disciple is not greater than his Lord.


And further, “I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.†Matt. 5:38, 39, 44, 45.

When He was rejected by the Samaritans, and two disciples wished to command fire to come down and consume the inhospitable people, He rebuked them, saying, “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.†Luke 9:51-56.


It was Peter, after his conversion never fought again, but he too laid down his life on an upside down cross. During the inquisition, reformers and millions of Christians laid down their life without a fight.

Are we to fight? Absolutely, "Fight the good fight of faith."

"Thou shalt not kill"

blessings,
John
 
There are so many opinions on what will happen (or has already happened) but I have the feeling that when it's all said and done everyone will have some surprises-


Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
 
Boanerges said:
There are so many opinions on what will happen (or has already happened) but I have the feeling that when it's all said and done everyone will have some surprises-

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Click to expand...

I ran a search on the library of congress years ago for all the books registered on the subject of Revelation. I went to our local library and ordered some of them over about a year through the interlibrary lending program. Over the years I have probably read about 100 books on Revelation including the ones I have in my home library.

After all of that - I still do not know what the book of Revelation really means! Not from cover to cover. Just bits and pieces that have come out of the historical record. There are so many different opinions that I have never been able to sort it all out.

I do believe that the book of Revelation was a book of comfort written to a persecuted Church - and God just hasn't taught us what it really means. Maybe if the Christians in the USA again come under intense persecution he will - and he can do this quite easily. When you hear his interpretation it will click in your mind and have that ring of truth. And like you say we will all probably have a major paradigm shift when this happens.

Oh sure there are plenty of televangelists who are 100 percent confident that they are correct, but historically those who are overconfident have the highest degree of error in my experience. After all - this was the same crowd that told us in the 1950's that everything Jesus predicted would have come to pass by 1988 - one generation of 40 years from the formation of Israel.

Can't disagree because now that I am retired I read so much my theology changes weekly. I really don't think any of us will ever live long enough to graduate from the many schools in God's university. And as before - the Lord doesn't seem to give a fig about our Theology - just his relationship with us. For this reason I have to remember that you guys are far more important than my theology.

I will always remember the message on the sign outside of the Church in the movie Peyton Place. "Those who love God must also love those whom God loves." Very profound.
 
Can't disagree because now that I am retired I read so much my theology changes weekly. I really don't think any of us will ever live long enough to graduate from the many schools in God's university. And as before - the Lord doesn't seem to give a fig about our Theology - just his relationship with us. For this reason I have to remember that you guys are far more important than my theology.

I will always remember the message on the sign outside of the Church in the movie Peyton Place. "Those who love God must also love those whom God loves." Very profound.
Click to expand...


Jaser, I can't agree with you more ,cause those are my sentiments exactly. It seems sometimes, and I am not discounting the fact, that people get onto one aspect of the Bible and get cought up in just that and forget the rest of the Bible , if you know what I am trying to say.

Like you said our relationship with the Lord is more important and if we loose sight of that then what do you have?

Case in point..... My niece is married to a professor in a universiity who teaches religion. He can sit down and argue theology and back everything up with what he has learned but he cannot understand the simplist fact that ..... you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. He has so much head knowledge that the devil has blinded his eyes.
 
To Know the Doctrine is to do the will of God

Dusty said:
Jaser, I can't agree with you more ,cause those are my sentiments exactly. It seems sometimes, and I am not discounting the fact, that people get onto one aspect of the Bible and get cought up in just that and forget the rest of the Bible , if you know what I am trying to say.

Like you said our relationship with the Lord is more important and if we loose sight of that then what do you have?

Case in point..... My niece is married to a professor in a universiity who teaches religion. He can sit down and argue theology and back everything up with what he has learned but he cannot understand the simplist fact that ..... you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. He has so much head knowledge that the devil has blinded his eyes.
Click to expand...

Hi Dusty,

Something to consider:

I'm not sure what you mean by theology, but we do know, "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." John 7:17.

I am sure you pray and will to do the will of God.

blessings in Christ,
John
 
Preciousmessage..... What I am trying to say is my niece's husband has studied theology and religeous doctines and he believes that he knows it all and yes he does but it is head knowledge but not heart knowledge. He does not know the saviour of his soul. He is missing the whole point of his studies.
 
PreciousMessage said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts we me Gordon. Consider the following:

When Jesus had been betrayed into the hands of His enemies, and a mob of man came to seize Him and put Him to death, Peter drew a sword in His defense. The blow just missed the head of one of the gang of murderers, and cut off his ear. “Then Jesus said to him, Put up again thy sword into his place; for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.†Matt. 26:51, 52. And then, as an evidence that He came not to take life but to save it, Jesus healed His wounded enemy. Luke 22:50, 51.

Speaking softly, How then can any of His followers fight in defense of themselves, or even of their brethren who are persecuted? The disciple is not greater than his Lord.


And further, “I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.†Matt. 5:38, 39, 44, 45.

When He was rejected by the Samaritans, and two disciples wished to command fire to come down and consume the inhospitable people, He rebuked them, saying, “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.†Luke 9:51-56.


It was Peter, after his conversion never fought again, but he too laid down his life on an upside down cross. During the inquisition, reformers and millions of Christians laid down their life without a fight.

Are we to fight? Absolutely, "Fight the good fight of faith."

"Thou shalt not kill"

blessings,
John
Click to expand...

I sure liked the spirit of that post!

Thank you
Jasher
 
God is Love

Jasher said:
I sure liked the spirit of that post!

Thank you
Jasher
Click to expand...

Hi Jasher, hope to hear more from you. I also agree with your interpretation of the 144,000. You have made some interesting points.

144,00 represents a perfect number, since it is a combination of the perfect church (12 tribes of Israel x 12 = 144) and the final work of Christ in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary, the measurements of which are 10 cubits x 10 x 10 cubits = 1,000.

John
 
Well it doesn’t matter where you go these days Christians have long had the really bad habit (I was the same not too long ago) of taking scriptures out of time and context. You can do so many fun and exciting things with this practice.

The “Passage Pirates” kidnap passages from the old Testament and sell them in our day as still unfulfilled. Yes literally sell - there is a big market for exciting and sensational eschatology books.

I want to give some example of scriptures taken out of context. Here is a common scripture that is hijacked regularly. It was actually fulfilled on the day of Crucifixion. So You cannot export it to yet our future. This is the last seven of Daniel's prophesy.

Daniel 9:27 - NIV
27 He [God] will confirm a covenant [Abrahamic] with many [Israel] for one seven [years]. In the middle of the seven he [God] will put an end to sacrifice and offering [the sacrifice of Jesus - once and for all]. And on a wing of the temple [Chamber of Hewn stones - hall where the Sanhedrin met] he [God] will set up an abomination [the unjust condemnation of Jesus] that causes desolation, [Destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and Israel] until the end that is decreed [death by crucifixion - the wrath of God] is poured out on him [Jesus - his suffering and death].

Comments:
The main thing that I have done is to simply define who “He” and “Him” are - very simply. “He” is not “The Antichrist” as so many believe today; And it is not a new covenant that is made, but rather a confirmation of an old one that God made long ago with Abraham.

What greater abomination could there be in all time than for the Sanhedrin - sitting in their "wing" of the Temple - to condemn the Lord of the universe to death just for the sake of ENVY. This was the ultimate abomination of the Jewish nation and it caused the complete desolation of the Temple of God, the city, and the nation itself - all that remained of Jerusalem in 73AD was the Fortress Antonia (according to eyewitnesses), which became the garrison of the 10th Roman legion for over 200 years. Today it is called the Temple Mount - the real Temple Mount with the 600 foot [inclusive] South Eastern wall was destroyed just like Jesus said it would be. Not one stone was left upon another.

By the way there was a great incentive for tearing down the real Temple Mount. When the Temple was set on fire by the Zealots all the gold plate and silver melted and ran down into the crevases of the stones. The Temple also served as a bank where people stored their valuables - kind of like safety deposit boxes today. The place was loaded with valuables. All of this was retrieved by tearing down the Temple Mount completely to the last course of stones at bedrock. In those days people hid their valuables in the ground; and so did all of Jerusalem in those days and the Romans knew where to look for treasure. And so the whole city was totally destroyed down to the ground level.
 
I too love to read- it would be arrogance to believe that our Lord has not given wisdom to many of my brothers for the last two thousand years. There is nothing I like better than to have my spirit fed on anointed words from someone who lived their life close to the Masters heart- in His Name and with His love Larry
 
No original thought

Jasher said:
No, I just read a lot - my wife and I are book worms. I just steal the best of other peoples ideas. There is so much treasure to find in others.
Lauren
Click to expand...

I have a Pastor friend who is now in his 90's. He is still standing upright and speaks with strong conviction. I have heard him say often that he has not one original thought in His brain. How could we? Nothing good comes from us.

John
 
PreciousMessage said:
I have a Pastor friend who is now in his 90's. He is still standing upright and speaks with strong conviction. I have heard him say often that he has not one original thought in His brain. How could we? Nothing good comes from us.

John
Click to expand...

Dear John,
With so many billions of people on the earth, I doubt if there is much new in any of us. Hope I can stand at 90 - on second thought - I hope I am alive at 90. :)

Lauren
 
Hi Guys,

Are you getting tired of these? Here is another verse that often gets misapplied: Zechariah 12:10-11. Zechariah wrote in 520BC looking forward to the cross afar off back in the times of the rebuilding of the Temple of Solomon. This verse is often misapplied to present day Israel. Again, it can’t be done as it was fulfilled in the days of the Messiah. Here are two reasons why.

Zechariah 12:10-11
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

The New Testament ties this scripture to the Crucifixion of Jesus.

John 19:33-37
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37 and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

The second reason why this verse cannot be exported to our day is the fact that this section of scriptures are all “bundled†together from chapter nine to chapter fourteen. So whatever period of time you move them to - you have to move them all to the same place in time. What I mean is they are all roped or linked together by a common phrase, “In (or on) that day†So because of this I think you have to interpret it all in the same time period. The time period it is prophetically speaking to is the greatest period in history – the period of the cross. All of Zechariah speaks to the future coming Kingdom of the Messiah way out in the early first century. The writing is somewhat apocalyptic as some of the passages are clearly the cross - others are hard to understand, but they all go to the time of the Messiah. So this whole block of scripture Zechariah 9 through 14 are all bundled together - inseparable.

Zech. 9:16 (NASB)
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.
Zech. 11:11 (NASB)
So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord.
Zech. 12:3-4 (NASB)
"And it will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. [4] "In that day," declares the Lord, "I will strike every horse with bewilderment, and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
Zech. 12:6 (NASB)
"In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.
Zech. 12:8-9 (NASB)
"In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. [9] "And it will come about in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zech. 12:11 (NASB)
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
Zech. 13:1 (NASB)
"In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.
Zechariah 13: 2
"And it will come about in that day," declares the Lord of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.
Zech. 13:4 (NASB)
"Also it will come about in that day that the prophets will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive;
Zech. 14:4 (NASB)
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zech. 14:6 (NASB)
And it will come about in that day that there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.
Zech. 14:8 (NASB)
And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
Zech. 14:9 (NASB)
[9] And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
Zech. 14:13 (NASB)
And it will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
Zech. 14:20-21 (NASB)
In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the Lord 's house will be like the bowls before the altar. [21] And every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
 
Matthew 6:33-34 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be provided for you. 34 Therefore don't worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.


Matthew 6:33-34 (King James Version)


33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


These are just some scripture that come to mind that I feel fits when I think of end times in any fashion or context. I to just rely on my faith and go day by day if I think about the end times too much I can't sleep nor eat. Not because I am scared or fearful, it's just that I want to study until I can come up with an answer that is plausible.




2 Corinthians 5:7 (KJV)

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) :preach:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top