Jesus Or God Or Both?

[MichaelH]

I'm not quite sure what you mean -- perhaps you can help me with that.

I do know that we are taught that they are one. It's emphasized in the Gospel of John (especially in John 14:7-10). In John 14:28, Christ says that the Father is greater than He. This one can be complicated to explain as Christ's humanity is lesser than God's divinity, but Christ's divinity is literally God's divinity. It's one of the mysteries of faith.

That is very nicely worded, I really like that.

In fact I would love to use that, but unfortunately we have to add to some scriptures to get that belief.

God was manifest in the Flesh.
The devil looking at Jesus said, "have you come to torment us befor it's time Son of God? We adjure you in the name of God!!"
(Devils running to the Father to rebuke the son, now that is different.)

Jesus was Jesus in the flesh, He was not a lesser anything. His flesh limited his abilities because He had to operate like we do. With the Power of the Holy Spirit. He was still the Son of God though spiritually, nothing changed there. There was nothing Human about Jesus but his flesh. He did not even consider Earth his home. (I am not of this World)

Him and the Father are One and if you seen him you have seen the Father. (Jesus said that)

We are one in him, and He said we can be just like the Master. John said even as He is (Jesus) so are we in this World. John also said when He appears we shall be just like him.

Here is the issue with comparing the one in him and seen me you see the Father scriptures. If we use the same rule of interpretation then we can make ourselves God the Father or on the same level, using the same reasoning.

This is why Modelism, Symbolism, and oneness fall flat with lots of scriptural issues. You can't even translate the Word evenly or consistently trying to prove these concepts without making us the Father in Heaven also.

The Trinity Doctrine does not attempt to prove ONE God through scriptures. As you said, it's a mystery of Christian Faith.

Though Trinity lacks all the scriptural contradictions making 3 that are as 1. It's still a man made concept.

There were two. The Father and Son.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

The Father was always the creator, the Son of God always with him before the World was even made. That is two..

Both in the God class, or the same type of being.

Elôhı̂ym is plural. It means more than one.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

We were made in the same image as the Father and Son.
Hence Jesus our big Brother.

That is a Polytheism view. (The belief in more than one God) However, Jesus called us gods, when they accused him of making himself out to be God, calling himself the son of God. He turned to them and said, "Ye are also gods, like me."

So there are tons of gods, like the Father and the Son. Like them.

To clear the confusion, Paul said this.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

there are gods in heaven and in earth, but ONLY TWO we recognize. This is what Paul was making clear.

Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

We are like them and get the class god because we are as they are.

Once we remove the religion and man's understanding it gets pretty clear. God is a class not to be tied to a type of power. Even Satan was called god of this world and that is because of his class (Immortal being)

The Father and Son had always been, the "I AM" we are made in their image, like them. The Father Sent his son in the form of a human through the spoken Word.

The Father gave all things to the Son, and Jesus said what is mine, He gives to us.

Where did the Father and Son come from? One question of many to ask when we get to Heaven, but I suspect the Answer will be that, "I AM"

 

[ixoye_8]

Jesus sits at the Father's right hand ..

 

[MichaelH]

Jesus sits at the Father's right hand ..

That is a good place to sit........ Praise God.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Got to loose some weight, don't want to break anything up there.

 

[ixoye_8]

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Deu 6:4 shama` Yisra'el Yĕhovah 'elohiym Yĕhovah 'echad

Deu 6:4 Hear (me) Israel, Jehovah (is) Gods, Jehovah (is) one.

iym is the Hebrew plural ..
Eloah is the singular version ..

Psa 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

Psa 18:31 miy 'elowahh Yĕhovah miy tsuwr zuwlah 'elohiym

Psa 18:31 who (is) God (but) Jehovah, who (is the) rock except Gods.

notice the singular and plural both in the same verse ..
note: to add "our" you add the suffix "nu" which is not there ..

 

[MichaelH]

notice the singular and plural both in the same verse ..
note: to add "our" you add the suffix "nu" which is not there ..

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Makes you wonder why it's there.

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It's only through the years on forums that has forced me to look at Actual Greek and Hebrew. Is it possible that Scripture gets translated through revealed Knowledge from the Holy Spirit?

The Son there, waiting to be revealed to all of Mankind?

Makes me wonder.

 

[ixoye_8]

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

it is there because the translator added it .. it is not in the Hebrew ..
most likely they were going off Genesis 1, which the translator also adds "let us" make .. but that is acceptable because prior to that it says 'elohiym (Gods) said .. therefore it is congruent to the God/Gods of Genesis .. so instead of saying "Gods" they say "let us" ..

I am a stickler in my translating .. meaning I refuse to add any words I don't have to (only connecting words that there is not a Hebrew word for) because added words can easily change the context ..

 

[MichaelH]

I am a stickler in my translating .. meaning I refuse to add any words I don't have to (only connecting words that there is not a Hebrew word for) because added words can easily change the context ..

I am very joyed to hear that. I see two there, and I just know one is the one who said give me the same glory I had with you before the foundation of the World. How I am sure of that, I don't know.

I had this conversation with someone that was also a Word stickler.

Does exact translation remove concept? How do we even know Concept if the Word is revealed by the Holy Spirit?

Was Jesus telling a Parable when He saw Abraham in Hell? Would Jesus commit perjury and say that Abraham said things He did not actually say?

Is Satan being mentioned in Isa 14? Or some earth King?

Do I take Hermeneutics and mess with some Greek Words to remove eternal punishment? Or is the concept there and eternal punishment a reality?

I mean true, Aion has an age with a ending age, but it's branch Aionious is a Greek Adjective meaning it continues unless defined in the article. Just because it's the root from Aion does not means it stops. What about Aion es Aion?

I fully believe we can all chop words down, but the Holy Spirit gives concept.

Just thinking is all.

Blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

That is very nicely worded, I really like that.

In fact I would love to use that, but unfortunately we have to add to some scriptures to get that belief.

God was manifest in the Flesh.
The devil looking at Jesus said, "have you come to torment us befor it's time Son of God? We adjure you in the name of God!!"
(Devils running to the Father to rebuke the son, now that is different.)

Jesus was Jesus in the flesh, He was not a lesser anything. His flesh limited his abilities because He had to operate like we do. With the Power of the Holy Spirit. He was still the Son of God though spiritually, nothing changed there. There was nothing Human about Jesus but his flesh. He did not even consider Earth his home. (I am not of this World)

Him and the Father are One and if you seen him you have seen the Father. (Jesus said that)

We are one in him, and He said we can be just like the Master. John said even as He is (Jesus) so are we in this World. John also said when He appears we shall be just like him.

Here is the issue with comparing the one in him and seen me you see the Father scriptures. If we use the same rule of interpretation then we can make ourselves God the Father or on the same level, using the same reasoning.

This is why Modelism, Symbolism, and oneness fall flat with lots of scriptural issues. You can't even translate the Word evenly or consistently trying to prove these concepts without making us the Father in Heaven also.

The Trinity Doctrine does not attempt to prove ONE God through scriptures. As you said, it's a mystery of Christian Faith.

Though Trinity lacks all the scriptural contradictions making 3 that are as 1. It's still a man made concept.

There were two. The Father and Son.
Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

The Father was always the creator, the Son of God always with him before the World was even made. That is two..

Both in the God class, or the same type of being.

Elôhı̂ym is plural. It means more than one.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

We were made in the same image as the Father and Son.
Hence Jesus our big Brother.

That is a Polytheism view. (The belief in more than one God) However, Jesus called us gods, when they accused him of making himself out to be God, calling himself the son of God. He turned to them and said, "Ye are also gods, like me."

So there are tons of gods, like the Father and the Son. Like them.

To clear the confusion, Paul said this.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

there are gods in heaven and in earth, but ONLY TWO we recognize. This is what Paul was making clear.

Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

We are like them and get the class god because we are as they are.

Once we remove the religion and man's understanding it gets pretty clear. God is a class not to be tied to a type of power. Even Satan was called god of this world and that is because of his class (Immortal being)

The Father and Son had always been, the "I AM" we are made in their image, like them. The Father Sent his son in the form of a human through the spoken Word.

The Father gave all things to the Son, and Jesus said what is mine, He gives to us.

Where did the Father and Son come from? One question of many to ask when we get to Heaven, but I suspect the Answer will be that, "I AM"

Are you suggesting that the concept of the trinity, that is three in one, is a heresy?

 

[ixoye_8]

I am very joyed to hear that. I see two there, and I just know one is the one who said give me the same glory I had with you before the foundation of the World. How I am sure of that, I don't know.

sure you do .. spiritual thoughts combined with spiritual words (1Cr 2:13) .. kind of like mental telepathy .. and not at all like a thought ..

I had this conversation with someone that was also a Word stickler.

Does exact translation remove concept? How do we even know Concept if the Word is revealed by the Holy Spirit?

I have never found that to be so .. it clarifies context ..

Was Jesus telling a Parable when He saw Abraham in Hell? Would Jesus commit perjury and say that Abraham said things He did not actually say?

Jesus never saw Abraham in Hell .. before Jesus made redemption possible, there was a "place of waiting" called "Sheol" that you would go to when you died (the same place Jonah went to when he died for 3 days and was brought back to life Jon 2:2-6, Mat 12:40) hence Jesus saying "the sign of Jonah" .. during the 3 days in the tomb, Jesus went to Sheol (like Jonah) and preached the Gospel to those there (1Pe 3:18-19) so they would have the same opportunity as those alive (and born since) after his sacrifice on the cross for sins .. Jesus' parable was to explain HOW it works now .. there now are two "places of waiting" .. one called "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luk 16:22) (which is for those compliant to the Covenant of Faith) and one called "Hades" (Luk 16:23)(which is for those non-compliant to the covenant of Faith) .. but the two places will exist until after the millennium rule, which no more people will be born after that .. so Judgement Day follows that, and all will be gathered before Him (Mat 25:32, Rev 20:12) .. those on the left will be those from Hades (Rev 20:13) and those on the right, will be those from the Bosom of Abraham .. THEN he will say enter "Heaven" (Mat 25:34) or depart to "Eternal Punishment" (Mat 25:41, Mat 7:21) .. after that, Hades is no longer needed, and will also be thrown into the eternal fire (Rev 20:14) .. those redeemed at Judgement Day will have access to Heaven and the new earth (which I think must be for pets and animals) ..

BTW: paradise is another name for the Bosom of Abraham (which is so named, because these are the children of the promise) and where the good thief on the cross went as well ..

Is Satan being mentioned in Isa 14? Or some earth King?

it is satan .. also in Eze 28 ..
notice the connections ..
satan wants to put his throne above Gods
Isa 14:14 - Eze 28:6 - Mar 13:14 = in the new Jewish Temple
(as does the anti-Christ who he possesses)
satan our accuser is cast out of heaven
Isa 14:12 - Eze 28:16 - Luk 10:18 - Rev 8:10 - Rev 12:9
satan and hades was cast onto hell
Isa 14:9 - Eze 28:19 - Rev 20:14 - Rev 20:10
(hades is called sheol for the Jews sake, because hades did not yet exist )
note: satan will be tormented right along with all others who go there
the false god satan is the false morning star (Isa 14:12, Amo 5:26, Act 7:43) which was called the star of Rompha (venus) .. but the REAL "star of the morning" is Jesus (2Pe 1:19, Rev 22:16) this was also was the same god/baal/king of Tyre .. therefore satan was the "king of Tyre" ..

Do I take Hermeneutics and mess with some Greek Words to remove eternal punishment? Or is the concept there and eternal punishment a reality?

by no means, then you are changing the prophecies of Gods plan (2Pe 3:16, Rev 22:18)

I mean true, Aion has an age with a ending age, but it's branch Aionious is a Greek Adjective meaning it continues unless defined in the article. Just because it's the root from Aion does not means it stops. What about Aion es Aion?

do you mean true aion as in Classical or Koine or Jewish Koine ???

aiōn kai aiōn would translate as eternal and eternal ..
or in common English forever and ever ..

aiōnios translates as eternally ..
the suffix "ios" meaning "related to"

I fully believe we can all chop words down, but the Holy Spirit gives concept.

the Hebrew language is more of conceptual language, and you must hear the entire sentence often to understand what is being spoke about .. for instance "shamayim" can be defined as "expanse" .. and can be applied to the sky, the sea or a dessert .. in Genesis 1, it application is the sky, however, it then applies "shamayim" to sub-meanings, it can mean both space (Gen 1:14 where stars are) and it means atmosphere (Gen 1:20, Gen 2:19-20 where birds fly) .. a little later "shamayim" is used for God's abode .. hence the Jewish thought that are called "the 3 heavens" ..
1st heaven = atmosphere
2nd heaven = space
3rd heaven = God's abode ..
you can see this persisting in Paul's writing as well (2Cr 12:2) ..

which is a very good example how Jewish thought transcends Greek thought as the Apostles wrote ..

Just thinking is all.

my thoughts are it really doesn't matter how good you are at Greek, because translating the NT Greek is very different then translating Greek written by a Greek, using Greek thought .. nonetheless .. without the HS to give you the answers, most often you will make errors ..

Blessings.

 

[ixoye_8]

We were made in the same image as the Father and Son.

That is a Polytheism view. (The belief in more than one God) However, Jesus called us gods, when they accused him of making himself out to be God, calling himself the son of God. He turned to them and said, "Ye are also gods, like me."

and what does "image/likeness" mean ???
HE NEVER SAID LIKE ME ..

understand the context ..
He is "the son of God" ..
we are created beings adopted "as sons of god"

Psa 82:6 I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

so when they were blasting Jesus as a heretic ..
and he turned it around saying, yes, but scripture says you are too ..

nonetheless, He is GOD, while we only gain the title god as applied by adoption ..
Jhn 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
Jhn 10:35
“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

so the Father called those TO WHOM THE WORD CAME sons of god, these are "the children of the promise" .. aka those who are sons through adopted ..

SO IT IS THE WORD, WHICH IMPUTES THE STATUS OF god ..
to which it is, only a status as adopted into the family .. we still are created beings, and have no power to create (which a God is not created and can create) thus there is no REAL Gods beside YHWH ..

 

[MichaelH]

Are you suggesting that the concept of the trinity, that is three in one, is a heresy?

The True Trinity Doctrine stated that there are 3 who are God of God.

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Erasmus fully believed that this scriptures was a forgery and fake. He did not want to add it to the 3rd Edition of the Textus, He argued against it but because of the pressures coming from Rome, and the protestants (Both believed in the Trinity Doctrine) He caved in to avoid a whole mess of problems.

Erasmus wrote the NT Received Text

The verse was only found in one single document called the Comma Johanneum. This was a so called copy of the book of John.

Erasmus fought against the Johannine Comma, later James Strong thought it was fakery and did not believe in the Trinity concept much to the shock of his Methodist friends. (He wrote the Strongs concordance which we all use today) Erasmus felt that Jerome had something to do with this blatant forgery, though I personally don't see how since Jerome did not include it in the Latin Vulgate.
There is no evidence that Jerome actually had a copy of the Comma Johanneum or that it even existed during his time.

1Jn 5:7 quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant
(There are three that bear record)
1Jn 5:8 Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt
(Are one Spirit, the water and the blood, and the three)

Many translations have omitted this scripture because they felt it was forgery.

The debate has been ongoing since the 1500's
and is the only scriptures used to support the original Trinity Creed that was made by men.

Trinity being a Creed is called a Mystery of Christian faith. It neither attempts to prove or disprove the Trinity concept but says it's a Mystery. It's called a Puzzle by Methodist, a idea that the finite mind can not comprehend by Baptist. So the doctrine itself contains the Mystery. Rome declared it's not found in scripture but believed to be true. (Rome was actually against the Trinity concept at one time)

In 1914 A doctrine called "Oneness" came into being.

Oneness Pentecostalism States there is 1 God who manifest as 3. They try to prove the concept of 1 God through scriptures that Trinity never used to prove itself.

The Word was God, the Word was made flesh (Proving Jesus is also the father) is one of the many scriptures Oneness uses to prove their concept of a God that is 1 in 3, Not 3 that are 1.

As time passed many people not understanding Trinity but wanted to keep the concept and fully believed it was scriptural somehow came up with what is called a Modelist or Symbolism Doctrine. They often claim to be Trinitarian but in reality just mix and match Oneness with the original Trinity Creed taking a bit of everything to model the Real Trinity Creed. They often make statements such as this Web site that.

(From this Website)
Statement of Faith
1) The Holy Scriptures, in it's original form, is the inerrant Word of God.
2) There is only one God who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This is not a trinity Concept but a Modelist Concept. 1 in 3

Is Trinity Heresy?

The Creed states it's a mystery of Christian faith (first coined by Rome) Because it does not attempt to prove or disprove itself then it can't be called a Heresy. There are 3 that are as 1 which is an actual scripture if you accept the Johannine Comma.

 

[MichaelH]

and what does "image/likeness" mean ???
HE NEVER SAID LIKE ME ..


SO IT IS THE WORD, WHICH IMPUTES THE STATUS OF god ..
to which it is, only a status as adopted into the family .. we still are created beings, and have no power to create (which a God is not created and can create) thus there is no REAL Gods beside YHWH ..

How I miss this one? Your almost there. God is not a title, it's a generic term. It's a class of something. We are gods, like God. We are not creator though. However, You said god is family and that is excellent.

Trinity:

Pictures are a very bad way to show this, but it's the best I have found.

Oneness, Modelist, and symbolism Mix Trinity concepts.

 

[deeezbeats]

How I miss this one? Your almost there. God is not a title, it's a generic term. It's a class of something. We are gods, like God. We are not creator though. However, You said god is family and that is excellent.
Trinity:
View attachment 805
Pictures are a very bad way to show this, but it's the best I have found.
Oneness, Modelist, and symbolism Mix Trinity concepts.

View attachment 807

that picture doesn't even make any sense.

 

[MichaelH]

that picture doesn't even make any sense.

The Oneness picture? or the other picture?

Both don't make sense to me, but that is how religious folks roll. If there is any truth to either position, you can't define it on a 2D drawing.

 

[buckets]

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Christ's commandment is to love as he loved us I'd say love the Father and the Son

 

[Panda]

How I miss this one? Your almost there. God is not a title, it's a generic term. It's a class of something. We are gods, like God. We are not creator though. However, You said god is family and that is excellent.
Trinity:
View attachment 805
Pictures are a very bad way to show this, but it's the best I have found.
Oneness, Modelist, and symbolism Mix Trinity concepts.

View attachment 807

The first one was an early attempt at representing the Trinity. I recognize it from one of my books from seminary, but it spoke of that representation as being inaccurate or incomplete. It never provided a "correct" picture, but went on to describe the reason we have a Trinity doctrine.

The second is pretty much how I understand Oneness Pentecostalism, though my encounters with those groups have led to mixed results in the past.

 

[MichaelH]

The first one was an early attempt at representing the Trinity. I recognize it from one of my books from seminary, but it spoke of that representation as being inaccurate or incomplete. It never provided a "correct" picture, but went on to describe the reason we have a Trinity doctrine.

The second is pretty much how I understand Oneness Pentecostalism, though my encounters with those groups have led to mixed results in the past.

It is very interesting. The whole concept was to prove Jesus was not a created being, or lesser being. Least that was my understanding on how the doctrine came about.

Blessings.

 

[deeezbeats]

The whole concept was to prove Jesus was not a created being, or lesser being. Least that was my understanding on how the doctrine came about.

Blessings.

Proverbs 8:22

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+"

1Corinthians 15:28

"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

 

[MichaelH]

What is the point? I don't get it.

 

[deeezbeats]

What is the point? I don't get it.

I thought you were saying Jesus wasnt created/Is God.