Jesus Or God Or Both?

What is the point? I don't get it.

Some Christian faiths believe God Created Jesus. Deeezbeats Is quoting the Jehovah witness bible translation.

Here is the same quote from the CJB-Proverbs 8-22

Adonai made me as the beginning of his way,
the first of his ancient works.

A lot of other Christian beliefs believe that Jesus always was. Like how the gospel of John starts-

1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.
4 In him was life,
and the life was the light of mankind.
 
I thought you were saying Jesus wasnt created/Is God.

I never made any statement. I just posted Trinity Position and Oneness position.

Also Wisdom is a attribute of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is clearly with the Father before the foundation of the World as He said, and has no mentioned creation date. I am not Trinitarian, Modelist, Or oneness. I am what you call a Polytheist (The belief in more than one god)

There is a Father, and Son........ that makes two. It's the trinity creed that said they are God, of God. Which makes 3 but they are as 1 according to the doctrine.

Blessings.
 
Some Christian faiths believe God Created Jesus. Deeezbeats Is quoting the Jehovah witness bible translation.

Here is the same quote from the CJB-Proverbs 8-22

Adonai made me as the beginning of his way,
the first of his ancient works.

A lot of other Christian beliefs believe that Jesus always was. Like how the gospel of John starts-

1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.
4 In him was life,
and the life was the light of mankind.


Prov 8 is about "I Wisdom" one of the 7 attributes of the Holy Spirit.

Oneness, and Modelist use the start of John. It's not a trinitarian position.
 
here is what the bible says ..
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

in other words Jesus did NOT always exist per se ..
He always existed as God, but not always as Jesus ..

prototokos means FIRST ISSUED ..
in other words .. Jesus was "issued" (not created) from a 1 God with 1 essence (the HS was 2nd issued) so God then was 1 God with 3 essences ..


which the HS as 2nd issued totally messes up the gnostics with their mama HS theory ..

so the 1 God with 3 essences then CREATED ALL THINGS ..

Ban .. I attended DTS & MBI where did you attend ???
 
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Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

so this is not an act of creation, but an act of God dividing Himself in a sense ..
notice the 1st half of the sentence ..
He "IS" the image of the invisible God .. meaning Jesus "IS" God yet a projected likeness ..
 
here is what the bible says ..
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

in other words Jesus did NOT always exist per se ..
He always existed as God, but not always as Jesus ..

prototokos means FIRST ISSUED ..
in other words .. Jesus was "issued" (not created) from a 1 God with 1 essence (the HS was 2nd issued) so God then was 1 God with 3 essences ..


which the HS as 2nd issued totally messes up the gnostics with their mama HS theory ..

so the 1 God with 3 essences then CREATED ALL THINGS ..

Ban .. I attended DTS & MBI where did you attend ???

Jesus was what? I ereased my post with other scripture comparisons, I am surprised your a modelist though because that positions is full of many contradictions. There is nothing in that scripture that tells us Jesus was some (Essence) of a God machine or was issued from who? It's like saying my name is MIke, I issue myself as Bob, meet Bob!!!

Jesus was the first born from the dead, the first begotten out of many that believed on Him. He is the image of God, but so are we created in the image of God, a likeness of him. Who teaches this stuff?

Blessings.
 
There is nothing in that scripture that tells us Jesus was some (Essence) of a God machine or was issued from who?
Who teaches this stuff?

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
prototokos means FIRST ISSUED ..

the scripture is what it is .. all you have to do is read it ..

I asked Ban what Seminary he attended .. perhaps I should have asked you ..
I attended both DTS & MBI .. and you ???
 
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what about this ???
Hbr 7:3
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

aphomoioō
  1. to cause a model to pass off into an image or shape like it

  2. to express itself in it, to copy

  3. to produce a facsimile

  4. to be made like, render similar
 
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what about this ???
Hbr 7:3
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
aphomoioō
  1. to cause a model to pass off into an image or shape like it

  2. to express itself in it, to copy

  3. to produce a facsimile

  4. to be made like, render similar
now add the other data given ..
the Son of God is aphomoioō (a facsimile) that was the prototokos (first issued) ..
yet without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life ..

so it is scripture that teaches us Jesus always was, yet is aphomoioō (a facsimile) that was the prototokos (first issued) ..
hence a God of 1 essence originally ..


there is only 1 God ..
 
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Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
prototokos means FIRST ISSUED ..
Hypothetically saying lets say replace creation with magazines. "he is the first issued of all magazines"
Likewise, Christ is the first issued magazine(creation). And we are the later issues(other creation).
 
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If we take those definitions, then that makes us God also created, in his image. We don't ignore the fact Jesus said He was with the Father and the father gave him Glory before the foundation of the world. That makes two of them.

Also, we have to read above and below scripture.

Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

What man is this? Whom Abraham gave a 10th of his spoils?
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

Now read it together.

To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
(Heb 7:2-3)

Jesus was not made like a son, He is the son of God. Jesus is not the King of Salem, but Melchisedec was and the office of the priest abideth continually.

So your right, it's a copy, but a copy of what Paul was leading up to that the priest abideth continually.

Abraham did not give a 10th to Jesus, but to the King of Salam. There is nothing in the Article that switches the topic to Jesus.

Melchisedec is translated King of Righteousness. He was a priest before Arons time. He has no record of a father or mother, but was the King of Salam at the time.

Tzedek translated Righteousness or justice. As Paul mentioned in Hebrews.


The passage is not about Jesus!!!! Go read again. It's about priest. We can't take the term (nor end of days) and add Jesus in there to fit our understanding. There is lots of mystery of who exactly this King of Salam was. There is no end to the priest position, but we have a better High priest.

Fist issues and why I would pick trinitarian.

I already went over First begotten. If you don't get it, then you don't.

Brother, your big issue is you want to believe in ONE GOD. Then you want to bend the scriptures to fit that and it's just religion and junk. You end up erasing Jesus and making him some personality, substance, or something that is mashed together that we call God.

You need to redefine your understanding of what the term God means. It's a class of something, not the name of something. Jesus called us gods, or theos. We are also created in God's image, but that don't make us Savior, it just makes us gods as we are his offspring and each seed produces after it's own kind. We are born of the Word, the seed, same offspring created.

Satan is also called god........ (Theos) that don't make him Savior or the Father. (Deity, or immortal being)

God did not give everything to one of his substances, or personalities. God does not have a personality disorder, but He does have a son who He gave glory before the Earth was. That means two of them, not One with some mental disorder.

This is why I am not a Modelist, as there are two thrones............. two Gods............. Both in the Theos Class.

Trinity says there are 3 that are as 1. They don't try to explain how that works. Only Modelist try to explain it, and hence why they are called Modelist because they take parts of the first Trinity doctrine and change it to attempt to fit their belief of one God.

If you take one in something as Jesus said I am one with the Father, then that also makes us God the Father according to a Modelist view if they stay consistent in their translation. We are also one in him.

Heb 1:2 God in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Everything the Father did, He did through and for his son. Not a personality type of himself, or some essence of himself. A real son and he gave all things to that son, not himself, or pat himself on the back.

There are two of them, and why the Trinity Doctrine never tried to explain how there can be 3 but there as 1. Way to many scripture contradictions and even folks back then had enough sense to not even attempt it.

It's a mystery of christian faith. (That is the explanation)
Southern Baptist: (Something the human finite mind can't understand) "
so where they get it then? Duh... but anyway."
Methodist
(A puzzle, but hints of it in the Word)

Modelist (I can twist and ignore other scripture and make 1 that are 3)
Oneness (We are just confused, we twisted all the scriptures and ignore the inconvenient ones.)

It's not a big issue, but I always myself make sure I have no scriptures that contradict before I believe something. That is my mission, to be line upon line, not what someone told or taught me. Not what a church believes or what they teach at some school. Scripture only, with Zero contradictions. I don't care about religion or doctrines.
Theos is a class of being.............................. there are lots of em. That is scripture and why I am not into monotheism.
 
Hypothetically saying lets say replace creation with magazines. "he is the first issued of all magazines"
Likewise, Christ is the first issued magazine(creation). And we are the later issues(other creation).

Exactly!!!
taking the Greek and ignoring other scripture is not the best way to understand the Word.

If Jesus is some essence of a god machine that is just one, then we don't have a mediator, or God snapped off a piece of himself to mediate with himself. That is Logic only Modelist would understand.

Jesus is the Son of God, has always been the Son of God and the Firstbegotten of many, the firstborn of the dead. King of Kings, Lord of Lords. He sits on the Right hand of His father as our mediator and help.

I like that deeezbeats, good analogy.
 
Hypothetically saying lets say replace creation with magazines. "he is the first issued of all magazines"
Likewise, Christ is the first issued magazine(creation). And we are the later issues(other creation).

no .. because Jesus was not created .. even though he was prototokos (first issued)
is is still part of the "original" ..


there is only 1 God .. not 3 ..
 
no .. because Jesus was not created .. even though he was prototokos (first issued)
is is still part of "original" ..


there is only 1 God .. not 3 ..
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a+ write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

I never said there was 3 God's
 
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a+ write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

I never said there was 3 God's
well if Jesus was CREATED , then He is a separate God ..
but Jesus was issued from God, making Him still the same 1 God ..

.. made like the Son of God
, he remains a priest perpetually.
aphomoioō
  1. to cause a model to pass off into an image or shape like it
  2. to express itself in it, to copy
  3. to produce a facsimile
  4. to be made like, render similar
 
well if Jesus was CREATED , then He is a separate God ..
but Jesus was issued from God, making Him still the same 1 God ..
.. made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
aphomoioō
  1. to cause a model to pass off into an image or shape like it
  2. to express itself in it, to copy
  3. to produce a facsimile
  4. to be made like, render similar
Exept Jesus and God ARE two seperate beings. Its times like this I wished God's name was never replaced with LORD.
 
Exept Jesus and God ARE two seperate beings. Its times like this I wished God's name was never replaced with LORD.

Quote:
I never said there was 3 God's

you will find God's name written here ..
Exd 15:2
Exd 17:16
Psa 68:4
Psa 68:18
Psa 77:11
Psa 89:8
Psa 94:7
Psa 94:12
Psa 102:18
Psa 104:35
Psa 105:45
Psa 106:1
Psa 106:48
Psa 111:1
Psa 112:1
Psa 113:1
Psa 113:9
Psa 115:17
Psa 115:18
Psa 116:19
Psa 117:2
Psa 118:5
Psa 118:14
Psa 118:17
Psa 118:18
Psa 118:19
Psa 122:4
Psa 130:3
Psa 135:1
Psa 135:3
Psa 135:4
Psa 135:21
Psa 146:1
Psa 146:10
Psa 147:1
Psa 147:20
Psa 148:1
Psa 148:14
Psa 149:1
Psa 149:9
Psa 150:1
Psa 150:6
Sgs 8:6
Isa 12:2
Isa 26:4
Isa 38:11
 
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ktisis in Rev 3:14 is translated as creation, however being an acceptable rendering sometimes, is not what it means .. it means "an establishing" (as in what is made or in a being) which is how it was meant ..

Rev 3:14
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation establishments of God, says this:

Rom 1:25 ktisis = creature
2Cr 5:17 ktisis = creature

1Pe 2:13 ktisis = institution
synonyms for establish:foundation, institution, formation, inception, creation, installation
Jesus was established/created/formed/installed by Jehovah himself but is not Jehovah. He is the foundation/start of all of God's creations. He was instituted by Jehovah. Just because you change the word doesn't change the intended meaning.
 
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