KJV vs NIV

[Prim90]

The Torah is contained within the Bible, yes. The entire OT was NOT a part of Torah. I never said John had no knowledge of Torah or the prophets. He did not carry around the 90+ pound scroll of Torah with him. He did not need it. He knew well enough, given his Nazerite vows and such, to hold in his heart the very Mosaic Law contained in Torah. He had none of the New Testament at his disposal, apart from what Holy Spirit revealed to him.

He, like most others, were either instructed personally by the religious leaders, or they attended synagogue to learn.

All the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. The Law of God is what the Spirit writes within our hearts. The Spirit is more reliable and instills the word of God into our hearts moreso than any English translation. It's good that we have the freedom to pick up a Bible and study it, but it is not the replacement nor over-arching authority in the place of the Spirit. The Spirit of the Lord I personally hold in much higher regard than words on paper. It is to Him the words point, and it is He to whom I look for ultimate instruction and guidance above all else.

If that is not your ethic or modus operandi, then that is your choice.

MM

MM With how the Jewish ones done their scrolls they came in all different lengths and sizes they also had targams and other ways to remind them of Gods word. No need for John to carry 90 pounds of Old Testament scrolls around. I’m sure he had access to most if not all. More so with his father being a priest and himself a Nazarite. Now in your post 79 you say. ( He had Gods word written in his heart ) you than continue to write ( that it is where the power of the word of God is inflamed and empowered. ) you than state in post 90 ( paper and ink are useful tools in their place and time ) In their place and time ? Has anything changed with the power of that ink and paper of the bible over time that continues to comfort and draw people to him ? Than you conclude in your post 90 with your usual spirituality ( but we are as the image of God, have what he has placed within us. This is his testimony. ) it be all about spirituality with you again and you denying the word it’s rightful place and respect. Ive never known a Christian like you who calls the bible a mere tool, who also calls the bible a thing. Who tells people to get their noses out the bible and embrace more spirituality and who won’t even accept the Holy Bible being allowed into heaven. MM is that how God really views his Holy Scripture.? It is the power of God just not merrily a useful tool or a thing? That be how God views his word .

 

[Origen]

Origin what I mean by the bible and Torah knowledge is exactly that, the Torah and bible in reference to the rest of the Old Testament. For MM to conclude in post 79 ( that John the Baptist had no bible or Torah scroll even in his hands. ) He certainly did of which was my reply in post 80.

Clearly you have simply misunderstood MM. You seem to be reading too much into the phrase "in his hands." MM is not claiming that John did not have access to the Scripture in both written and oral forms, and he is certainly never said that John had no knowledge of the Torah as you have claimed. All MM means by the phrase "in his hands" is that John did not carry around with him a scroll or some like that with him, nothing more. He even clarifies this point in later posts.

In post 87 he states:

Well, if you ask me, I didn't say he had no knowledge of Torah. I said he wasn't carrying a copy of Torah or the Bible with him...

Then in post 94 he states:

I never said John had no knowledge of Torah or the prophets. He did not carry around the 90+ pound scroll of Torah with him.

 

[Prim90]

Clearly you have simply misunderstood MM. You seem to be reading too much into the phrase "in his hands." MM is not claiming that John did not have access to the Scripture in both written and oral forms, and he is certainly never said that John had no knowledge of the Torah as you have claimed. All MM means by the phrase "in his hands" is that John did not carry around with him a scroll or some like that with him, nothing more. He even clarifies this point in later posts.

In post 87 he states:

Then in post 94 he states:

Upon closer examination of post 79 and with rereading MM’s later posts shedding more light on what he really meant on what he was referring to on the matter of John the Baptist. Yes I accept, my misunderstanding. My apologies to MM on that matter. Origen thank you. It be late I must sleep now. Goodnight

 

[Musicmaster]

MM With how the Jewish ones done their scrolls they came in all different lengths and sizes they also had targams and other ways to remind them of Gods word. No need for John to carry 90 pounds of Old Testament scrolls around. I’m sure he had access to most if not all. More so with his father being a priest and himself a Nazarite. Now in your post 79 you say. ( He had Gods word written in his heart ) you than continue to write ( that it is where the power of the word of God is inflamed and empowered. ) you than state in post 90 ( paper and ink are useful tools in their place and time ) In their place and time ? Has anything changed with the power of that ink and paper of the bible over time that continues to comfort and draw people to him ? Than you conclude in your post 90 with your usual spirituality ( but we are as the image of God, have what he has placed within us. This is his testimony. ) it be all about spirituality with you again and you denying the word it’s rightful place and respect. Ive never known a Christian like you who calls the bible a mere tool, who also calls the bible a thing. Who tells people to get their noses out the bible and embrace more spirituality and who won’t even accept the Holy Bible being allowed into heaven. MM is that how God really views his Holy Scripture.? It is the power of God just not merrily a useful tool or a thing? That be how God views his word .View attachment 8822View attachment 8823

Well, I can't say as to what stories you have read about the ancients, especially those who had taken the Nazarite vows and such, but we can all speculate all we so desire, and still miss the truth of the matter...considering that there's so little said in scripture about John and the particulars of how he lived and learned. I'm content in the knowledge of what we are told, in that copies of Torah and the prophets were of great value, and therefore most of the ancient populations were unable to afford one, and most were not educated in reading and writing.

When you say that you're sure John had access while living in the wilderness, that is an assumption that I will leave to your imaginations. I prefer to not dabble in that arena.

I'm somewhat concerned that you see some sort of, what appears to be, magical powers in papery and ink. There is none, and perhaps we can both agree with that.

Numbers 22:38 And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.

God is the One who put the words in the mouth. When Moses penned that, he wasn't copying from something else written.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luke 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Yes, the written word is indeed a wonderful tool in the hands of a reader and pursuer of godly things and life, but the only way the words we may read, or that the Lord gives to one directly, only He empowers them, and my message has been for others to enter into their prayer closet and let the Lord enliven what they have read, AND what He gives to us directly, for it is ONLY in that relationship that the Lord enlivens His words.

One can lay a Bible on a sick person, and that book will do nothing for them in and of itself. The prayer of faith, however, THAT is the communion where the Lord does His wondrous works in the lives of His people.

You are free to reverence the printed work. That's fine. I'm not here to take that from you or anyone else. The Lord has put many a word in my mouth to speak to others, and His power in those words were, and are, effective. You, however, have no power to empower the book. Only the Lord can do that, and He doesn't do so to make it into some sort of esoteric talisman. That is not His modus operandi, pure and simple. He lives within His people, and through us, not through a book. The book is a wonderful tool pointing to Him.

The ancients who lived in the deepest jungles where there were not Bibles or Torah scrolls, they still were instructed and given light from the Lord by a manner that has not been revealed to us. Why? Because the Lord is perfectly just, and Romans 1 holds the feet ALL the people of this world, throughout all the ages, to the fires of responsibility for recognizing His existence and power, which is evident in all of creation. All are therefore without excuse, as I have quoted in a previous post. When they called out to Him, He responded, never leaving them to wallow in the darkness of ignorance. Eventually, missionaries showed up to give to them understanding and knowledge, but how the Lord filled that void before missionaries were available, we do not know.

We all still study our Bibles, Prim, but not all of us see any sort of magic in it. We are indwelt by the Author.

Thanks for you apology. It came through right before I hit the SUBMIT button.

MM

 

[Origen]

Upon closer examination of post 79 and with rereading MM’s later posts shedding more light on what he really meant on what he was referring to on the matter of John the Baptist. Yes I accept, my misunderstanding. My apologies to MM on that matter. Origen thank you. It be late I must sleep now. Goodnight

That is wonderful and shows true Christian love. God bless!

Col 3:14 "And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."

 

[Lanolin]

The Essenes defintely had the scrolls as they preserved them meticulously (dead sea scrolls) in caverns.

While John the Baptist wasn't carrying around scrolls as he was baptising people (they would have gotten wet) he would have read them and had them somewhere, so what point are you trying to make MM?

Is there anything actually WRONG with carrying a Bible on your person? If you can fit one in your pocket, more power to you! Some soldiers would carry a little pocket book of John with them in battle, it was standard war issue for some troops.

 

[Lanolin]

John's parents were priests, remember his dad Zachariah couldn't even speak before he was born cos he was rude to the angel. They were rostered to burn incense in the temple altar and were always there.

So John would have been bought up around scripture all the time. Of course he would have memorised it as thats what you do when you live and breathe it. People were always asking him if he was Elijah or a prophet. They would have been reading it.

John was not always in the wilderness, that was just like a retreat for him, if he'd taken the Nazarite vow, he would have gone and studied the scriptures lol. And they had caves with scriptures IN the wilderness!

 

[Lanolin]

People aren't saying the Bible is a magical object MM. So stop trying to imply thats what people are saying.

The Bible is necessary and must be read to be understood though which is why Bibles in Schools gives free copies to children. This is why Gideons distributes Bibles in hotel rooms. It's why Gutenberg mass printed the Bible as a book for the first time. And now its online, and translated into many many languages all over the world. God always wanted his Word to be read and understood, and while He sent Jesus to be word in the flesh...He also stated that there would be so many books about Jesus, that the world could not contain them.

Amen to that.

 

[Prim90]

Well, I can't say as to what stories you have read about the ancients, especially those who had taken the Nazarite vows and such, but we can all speculate all we so desire, and still miss the truth of the matter...considering that there's so little said in scripture about John and the particulars of how he lived and learned. I'm content in the knowledge of what we are told, in that copies of Torah and the prophets were of great value, and therefore most of the ancient populations were unable to afford one, and most were not educated in reading and writing.

When you say that you're sure John had access while living in the wilderness, that is an assumption that I will leave to your imaginations. I prefer to not dabble in that arena.

I'm somewhat concerned that you see some sort of, what appears to be, magical powers in papery and ink. There is none, and perhaps we can both agree with that.

Numbers 22:38 And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.

God is the One who put the words in the mouth. When Moses penned that, he wasn't copying from something else written.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luke 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Yes, the written word is indeed a wonderful tool in the hands of a reader and pursuer of godly things and life, but the only way the words we may read, or that the Lord gives to one directly, only He empowers them, and my message has been for others to enter into their prayer closet and let the Lord enliven what they have read, AND what He gives to us directly, for it is ONLY in that relationship that the Lord enlivens His words.

One can lay a Bible on a sick person, and that book will do nothing for them in and of itself. The prayer of faith, however, THAT is the communion where the Lord does His wondrous works in the lives of His people.

You are free to reverence the printed work. That's fine. I'm not here to take that from you or anyone else. The Lord has put many a word in my mouth to speak to others, and His power in those words were, and are, effective. You, however, have no power to empower the book. Only the Lord can do that, and He doesn't do so to make it into some sort of esoteric talisman. That is not His modus operandi, pure and simple. He lives within His people, and through us, not through a book. The book is a wonderful tool pointing to Him.

The ancients who lived in the deepest jungles where there were not Bibles or Torah scrolls, they still were instructed and given light from the Lord by a manner that has not been revealed to us. Why? Because the Lord is perfectly just, and Romans 1 holds the feet ALL the people of this world, throughout all the ages, to the fires of responsibility for recognizing His existence and power, which is evident in all of creation. All are therefore without excuse, as I have quoted in a previous post. When they called out to Him, He responded, never leaving them to wallow in the darkness of ignorance. Eventually, missionaries showed up to give to them understanding and knowledge, but how the Lord filled that void before missionaries were available, we do not know.

We all still study our Bibles, Prim, but not all of us see any sort of magic in it. We are indwelt by the Author.

Thanks for you apology. It came through right before I hit the SUBMIT button.

MM

Well life in the foothills of Judaea did rather bloom and burn with religious fervour and passion from all manner of sects and scrolls . Be that from the Essenes, hermits, prophets, Nazarite oaths, Zealots all the way up to traditional Jewish thought. One thing we can be certain about is that John was well versed in scripture. And if not influenced from the above mentioned, certainly from his father Zechariah who was a priest. What scriptoria John did or didn’t have on him at the time of his ministry we don’t know. Only that he would have have been familiar and well versed in scripture from all the above mentioned ideologies and influences around him. So perhaps not so much upon assumption I make that assertion . . Now your main emphasis be on our spiritual relationship with the God. MM where does that relationship come from and begin. Does not the Lord say in the gospel of John.15: 16 I have chosen you and you not me . The passages be numerous in both Old and New Testament attesting to that. Does God need the bible. No. But at the same time he has chosen for the bible to play a inaugural part in our relationship with him. MM I do remember upon first hearing the word of God in grade 2 it was my first understanding of religious instruction. We did hear of the story of the Jesus in helping the needy & hungry: the miraculous feeding of the 5000 by a few fish’s & loaves of bread . My heart did jump for joy upon hearing, and I feeling the sense of some Divine presence upon me as we all listened intently and looked upon the pictures and words the man did speak from the book. There were others of us that experienced the same joy. . You than speak upon those who have never heard the gospel or read a bible, be that past, present or future . I do say to that. That under the fulfilment of prophecy of our now resurrected Saviour God can save whom pleases. Past, Present or Future. . .As to humanity’s universal consciousness and responsibility in knowing of and being answerable to the universal creator you speak of in Romans chapter 1 that inner conscious has always been there in our created being. The only thing in question from John 3:16 is whether the word ( world ) refers only to the universal church or to the entire world when it comes to a partial or complete or universal redemption of fallen humanity. So does God really need missionaries for example . No. But does that any wise detract from our efforts to send missionaries to the 4 corners of the world . No. And why is that . Because God has ordained us to preach the gospel to the 4 corners of the world. He sees it as important to do so and also because we love to please him. And so it be with so many other things he sees as important. Holy communion the Bible,,worship etc. MM our spiritual interaction with God be many experiences of many things. As to your concerns for my spiritual well being when it comes to the magical powers of papery or of the bible that you mention . That be the reality when the Spirit of God moves upon the reader to edify to convict to reveal and along with so many other things of when the Spirit of God chooses to do so. Than it becomes the living Word of God. We seem some disagreed upon that. . Is it a dead book? or the living word of God when the Spirit of God unleashes it’s power upon its pages? I simply may hold the word of God more highly in reverence and respect than you do. I have no problem with the magical powers of the Book that concern you so in what I express. you simply cannot seperate spirituality from the bible. For it is well attested by the church that the spirit of God moves upon the book and washes our hearts afresh and rejuvenates us. MM I cannot add more only in that we will not give up the spirituality of the bible. We disagree with you just as you are free to disagree with me.

 

[Musicmaster]

Well life in the foothills of Judaea did rather bloom and burn with religious fervour and passion from all manner of sects and scrolls . Be that from the Essenes, hermits, prophets, Nazarite oaths, Zealots all the way up to traditional Jewish thought. One thing we can be certain about is that John was well versed in scripture. And if not influenced from the above mentioned, certainly from his father Zechariah who was a priest. What scriptoria John did or didn’t have on him at the time of his ministry we don’t know. Only that he would have have been familiar and well versed in scripture from all the above mentioned ideologies and influences around him. So perhaps not so much upon assumption I make that assertion . . Now your main emphasis be on our spiritual relationship with the God. MM where does that relationship come from and begin. Does not the Lord say in the gospel of John.15: 16 I have chosen you and you not me . The passages be numerous in both Old and New Testament attesting to that. View attachment 8832View attachment 8832 Does God need the bible. No. But at the same time he has chosen for the bible to play a inaugural part in our relationship with him. View attachment 8833 MM I do remember upon first hearing the word of God in grade 2 it was my first understanding of religious instruction. We did hear of the story of the Jesus in helping the needy & hungry: the miraculous feeding of the 5000 by a few fish’s & loaves of bread . My heart did jump for joy upon hearing, and I feeling the sense of some Divine presence upon me as we all listened intently and looked upon the pictures and words the man did speak from the book. There were others of us that experienced the same joy. . You than speak upon those who have never heard the gospel or read a bible, be that past, present or future . I do say to that. That under the fulfilment of prophecy of our now resurrected Saviour God can save whom pleases. Past, Present or Future. View attachment 8834 . .As to humanity’s universal consciousness and responsibility in knowing of and being answerable to the universal creator you speak of in Romans chapter 1 that inner conscious has always been there in our created being. The only thing in question from John 3:16 is whether the word ( world ) refers only to the universal church or to the entire world when it comes to a partial or complete or universal redemption of fallen humanity. So does God really need missionaries for example . No. But does that any wise detract from our efforts to send missionaries to the 4 corners of the world . No. And why is that . Because God has ordained us to preach the gospel to the 4 corners of the world. He sees it as important to do so and also because we love to please him. And so it be with so many other things he sees as important. Holy communion the Bible,,worship etc. MM our spiritual interaction with God be many experiences of many things. As to your concerns for my spiritual well being when it comes to the magical powers of papery or of the bible that you mention . That be the reality when the Spirit of God moves upon the reader to edify to convict to reveal and along with so many other things of when the Spirit of God chooses to do so. Than it becomes the living Word of God. We seem some disagreed upon that. . Is it a dead book? or the living word of God when the Spirit of God unleashes it’s power upon its pages? I simply may hold the word of God more highly in reverence and respect than you do. I have no problem with the magical powers of the Book that concern you so in what I express. you simply cannot seperate spirituality from the bible. For it is well attested by the church that the spirit of God moves upon the book and washes our hearts afresh and rejuvenates us. MM I cannot add more only in that we will not give up the spirituality of the bible. We disagree with you just as you are free to disagree with me.

To go one step further, the presence of so great a number of copies of the scriptures, and especially the Gospels, brings even greater condemnation upon those who reject following after the Lord and God of all creation. All throughout Israel, there were many synagogues through which the people could and did learn the Law and the prophets. There are very few places on this earth where they have not had access to the Gospel.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The context of the above, of course, was to His disciples, but it also has bearing upon all true believers, for we are able to preach the Gospel to all who are within our sphere of proximity and hearing.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised...

Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1Corinthains 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The considerable intellectualizing within modern and historic sermons can and do bring the power of the Gospel to none effect. This is a phenomenon that I have wanted to create a thread to address, but have not had the time to write out the thesis. Dr. J Vernon McGee at times traipsed dangerously close to intellectualizing the Gospel, but would always bring the topic back to the simplicity therein. Many have thought that the power of the Gospel is in complexity of intellectual words and phraseology, when in fact, that power resides ONLY in the simplicity of the Gospel, for it is simplicity that the Lord confounds the wisdom of the wise. The simplicity is what humbles hearts.

Amen

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I've heard many a professing believer claim, "Well, I'm no evangelist, so preaching isn't my thing..." How tragic that is.

Any and ALL TRUE believers in Christ Jesus are emissaries of that glorious Kingdom, and to not function as an emissary, that individual is not representative of Christ. The contentment with being numbered among the least in Heaven is a horrid and debilitating state of mind for anyone who claims to love and follow Christ Jesus. I don't want to live in eternity as being among the least...

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What of those who preach nothing to anyone? Are they under any measure of that curse? Doesn't their lack in sharing the Gospel with others not fall into the class of a deafening gospel of silence. Silence is a message, just as speaking is a message. If by silence I say to the world around me that there's nothing of any real value in what is written in the word of God, then am I not silently preaching another gospel...?

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people...

Wow. I would love to have that kind of power for preaching the Gospel, but am content with such as the Lord has empowered me to do.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

Wow. I would love to have that kind of power for preaching the Gospel, but am content with such as the Lord has empowered me to do.

we have that power acts 1:8

 

[blueskies]

We did hear of the story of the Jesus in helping the needy & hungry: the miraculous feeding of the 5000 by a few fish’s & loaves of bread . My heart did jump for joy upon hearing, and I feeling the sense of some Divine presence upon me as we all listened intently and looked upon the pictures and words the man did speak from the book.

Dear Prim90, I loved reading your testimony here. This, to me, is the value, intent and the manifest realization of the Lord’s printed Word.

I love my Bible(s), for me they are a road map, a navigation aid, to the narrow gate our Lord speaks of.

God bless you and those you Love.

 

[Lanolin]

If God didn't have us write His words down as scripture, humans would have forgotten it I would think.
That's why its important to be able to read and write.

Oral cultures can only go so far in memorising things - and memory can change. God's Word stays the same - it's everlasting.

Not sure why anybody would try and diminish the importance of scripture in helping us to be God's people. If we did not have the New Testament and the gospels would anyone still remember Jesus words and deeds thousands of years later. Of course when Jesus was in the flesh on earth His people didn't need the scripture when he was right THERE in the flesh.

I have children who struggle because they are illiterate and don't know how to read - yet. If they reach adulthood not knowing life will be harder for them. Their worlds will be so small and they can only get by by asking others. Many men end up in prison not knowing how to read, and consequently are ignorant about how to live in the world. At least with reading you can figure out things - mysteries will be revealed to you.