KJV vs NIV
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
Where exactly does MM conclude John the Baptist "had no Bible or Torah knowledge"?
MM does state:
Saying that John had no Bible or Torah "in his hands" is a far cry from claiming John had "no Bible or Torah knowledge."
And how did John gain all that bible and Torah knowledge? From the written word of God of course. To say he had never handled the word of God is just not true. Even more so with his father being a priest who had more privileged access more than most. So saying that John never had holy scripture in his hand is just not correct.
there not interested in a winner only a good argument/ discussion
Where exactly does MM claim that John the Baptist "had never handle the word of God"?
read the entirety of MM’s last sentence of post 79 in the entirety of its contest. I’ve already wrote my thoughts on the matter.
Well, if you ask me, I didn't say he had no knowledge of Torah. I said he wasn't carrying a copy of Torah or the Bible with him....especially considering that the Bible didn't even exist in his day. He did indeed learn Torah, and was still under its lawful requirements. That's how he knew that Herod was wrong for having taken his living brother's wife as his own. That appears to be a partial quote, out of context, so can you tell me what post that was from?
MM
I have. Here is post 79, the last sentence in bold type highlighted in red.
MM my understanding of when you quote the bible and Torah together in post 79 that you be referring to the entirety the Old Testament I assume that is the bible you be talking about
I cannot find where you made such a claim.
Agreed! The fact is most people simply did not own copies of the Scriptures.
Once again I agree. Most Jewish boys received at least some education and there is no doubt John knew the Scriptures.
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I have it before me too just not marked in red. What is your point ?
MM did not say the things being claimed, as I have point out.
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Origen you’ve haven’t pointed anything out to me that will change my viewpoint in anyway with all of your replies. But you can think what you like I guess.
The Torah is contained within the Bible, yes. The entire OT was NOT a part of Torah. I never said John had no knowledge of Torah or the prophets. He did not carry around the 90+ pound scroll of Torah with him. He did not need it. He knew well enough, given his Nazerite vows and such, to hold in his heart the very Mosaic Law contained in Torah. He had none of the New Testament at his disposal, apart from what Holy Spirit revealed to him.
He, like most others, were either instructed personally by the religious leaders, or they attended synagogue to learn.
All the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. The Law of God is what the Spirit writes within our hearts. The Spirit is more reliable and instills the word of God into our hearts moreso than any English translation. It's good that we have the freedom to pick up a Bible and study it, but it is not the replacement nor over-arching authority in the place of the Spirit. The Spirit of the Lord I personally hold in much higher regard than words on paper. It is to Him the words point, and it is He to whom I look for ultimate instruction and guidance above all else.
If that is not your ethic or modus operandi, then that is your choice.
MM
I respectfully disagree.
I asked two questions based on your comments.
(1) Where exactly does MM conclude John the Baptist "had no Bible or Torah knowledge"?
(2) Where exactly does MM claim that John the Baptist "had never handle the word of God"?
Where exactly does MM make these claims? Please provide the quotes word for word. If you cannot, then there is no reason to accept your claims.
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The Torah is scriptures which is part of the Bible.
They kept the scrolls in synagogues or in the ark of convenant and made copies. Of course they wouldn't be carrying them around while they are doing their everyday things because they were big and heavy.
It is silly to say it didn't exist - they had it and preserved it and revered it but it wasn't easily accesible as it is now with mass printing and publishing/distribution. Jesus was reading scripture in the synagogues and Mary was quoting from the Bible too. He quoted from psalms and from Deuteronomy.
The Bible as we know it today in our many different versions wouldn't have existed because English wasn't spoken and books were not common. But that is not to say scripture did not exist.
Please don't muddy the waters here as I don't even know what point you are trying to make.
'Bible' just means a collection of books - a library. The Holy Bible as we know it is 66 books and these are scriptures.
You can have separate books and also separate old testament and new testaments. At John the Baptists time he would have had what we call the Old Testament. He wouldn't have had the New Testament because it had yet to be written and collected lol.
Scriptures would have been in every synagogue, and every house had to have scripture in scroll on the door (or words written there) the Jewish tradtion is called a Mezusah (sp?) I believe.
Back then they would have had scrolls, though we call them books these days. Books that are sewn together with pages and printing on both sides that were mass produced were a later invention. Up to then everything was meticuously copied onto vellum.
Think about it, also its silly to believe that just cos in the olden days there were no computers or tv or internet that people were stupid or illiterate. They had communication, they also had pigeon post!
You can have separate books and also separate old testament and new testaments. At John the Baptists time he would have had what we call the Old Testament. He wouldn't have had the New Testament because it had yet to be written and collected lol.
Scriptures would have been in every synagogue, and every house had to have scripture in scroll on the door (or words written there) the Jewish tradtion is called a Mezusah (sp?) I believe.
Back then they would have had scrolls, though we call them books these days. Books that are sewn together with pages and printing on both sides that were mass produced were a later invention. Up to then everything was meticuously copied onto vellum.
Think about it, also its silly to believe that just cos in the olden days there were no computers or tv or internet that people were stupid or illiterate. They had communication, they also had pigeon post!
Origin what I mean by the bible and Torah knowledge is exactly that, the Torah and bible in reference to the rest of the Old Testament. For MM to conclude in post 79 ( that John the Baptist had no bible or Torah scroll even in his hands. ) He certainly did of which was my reply in post 80. More so with him being a Nazarene and his father being a priest. All that MM reminds us of in post 79 ( He had Gods word written in his heart ) And where did John obtain that knowledge to Impress upon his heart ? From the very scrolls that MM claims in post 79, that John never had in his hands. Quote post 79( John the Baptist had no bible or even Torah scroll in his hands ) So which is it. Did John have no handling or reading from the scrolls Or did he maybe receive Divine oral dictation from God.?