What do they mean by the best manuscripts. Lanolin there be a line of the thought that the oldest manuscripts always be the best manuscripts. It has it problems. As false and altered manuscripts were upon the church early church not long after it began. The originals haven’t survived us and nor should we expect to find them. Most early trusted manuscripts probably disintegrated with over use and were replaced over time. Not that we need the originals or older manuscripts there be a abundance of later majority manuscripts that verify most of scripture if not all. Throw in the church fathers and I think from memory you have a 95 percent verification rate of the New Testament there alone. As to the Vaticanus it be from a much later period probably maybe from the late Middle Ages. You must always remember that Rome had a reputation commonly known as the city of forgers or forged documenters through much of its chequered history. As to the Sinaiticus its probably from the the 19th century maybe some earlier but certainly not from the 4th century AD.
KJV vs NIV
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
Peter also had no advanced degree nor academic studies under his robe sash that served as his belt. He was a fisherman. They know fishing.
What I'm saying is that, although I somewhat agree with you, Riplinger's real problem is that she didn't/doesn't sit at the feet of the Master, so to speak. No formal study program will ever make a genuinely powerful student and teacher of others in spiritual things.
There are many men and women who have formal education in theology, with myriads of letters attached to their names, but when we look at those who have not succumbed to sitting at the Master's feet, they are those who teach textual criticism to the level casting doubt on the miracles and the Deity of Christ Jesus. To go even further in their textual criticisms, they even question the very witness foundations of the Gospels and the epistles, turning out from Bible Cemeteries generation after generation of mystic and doubting fuss-bucket who then duplicate themselves to populate the liberal denominations and church organizations.
So, what it really boils down to is that Riplinger, like so many others, are fixated on the strength of man's own arm in being able to get to the truth, and that their prescribed path to what they think is the truth is rooted in sticking strictly to the KJV....at the exclusion of 1 John 2:26-27
1 John 2:26-27
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who [try to] deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
Neither the KJV or any other will achieve that abiding. It is not even an achievement, as some may think.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Ephesians 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,...
Those who elevate a translation above the most important feature for spiritual stature, they do so in error because of their gross ignorance and lack of spiritual gianthood. They walk about as midgets on stumpy legs, so to speak. Walking around on the stilts of translation purity is...missing the mark.... The Spirit of the Lord is more than capable of preserving the purity of truth in spite of the errors in translation, which even the KJV has.
MM
MM I not understand you . You start a post called ( KJV v NIV ) And than you turn around and tell us all that ( all those who elevate a translation above the most important feature for spiritual statute, they do so in error because of their gross ignorance and lack of spiritual gianthood. They walk around around as midgets on stumpy legs so to speak ) What has that got to with the topic at hand KJV v NIV ?. The translation issue is real one it goes back far longer and deeper then just with the king James onlyism people. But I will say one thing about them. At least you know where the line in the sand is drawn with them and there will be no further compromise. It’s a shame that our bible colleges, universities and seminaries didn’t draw the same line in the sand with all those textual critics that now pollute the minds of the church with their venom that the bible can no longer be trusted and that science and they will decide what scripture teaches and what be true of what scripture says. That I do commend you very much for pointing out. I do maintain once again how can we trust the NIV bible that continues to shed its skin with massive word changes with every new edition from its original edition in 1984 until the present . What may be Gods word today may be entirely different tomorrow with the NIV ‘s next edition
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Prim, it's not about not trusting any of them. It's about seeing them for what they are. Perhaps we can say that they are the "beginning" of understanding. They are like sign posts that point the way to the Lord...the REAL Lord who can and does instruct us through His Spirit.
Translations are tools of varying quality:
2 Timothy 3:13-17
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned [them],
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The important key is the "...from whom..."
Doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction...those are the tools that help to draw back the veil so that one may THEN see the Lord of whom His inspired words point. One can have all the right and proper doctrinal knowledge in the world, but when one misses out on reaching for that relationship, the knowledge alone will not suffice in growing the believer.
A number of times I told my former wife, who has passed on, that far too many people are holding their Bibles before their faces, never putting them down to see beyond them to the One at whom the Bible points...to see His face, and behold His glory in relationship. She had serious problems with my statement in this regard, and would not accept it. Many a smart and well educated people have crossed my path, who knew the scriptures better than I, and yet had not the light of relationship in their eyes and in their mannerisms.
So, yes, this thread has evolved into other facets of this topic, and yet they are still a part of the topic. Versions do matter at the lower levels of the learning and growth process, but stopping at the point of knowledge alone, which is not an option for continual growth toward the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus.
Some desire that journey of relationship, some do not. For those who do, I invite them all to walk with all others in fellowship who seek that growth in spiritual stature, which originates only from one Source, which is Christ Jesus. Those who'd rather keep their noses stuck in some translation as their god, then that is their choice. The truly spiritual read the scriptures, and see what the human mind cannot conceive on its own. The life that flows from the words of scripture are vitally meaningful to those who have rooted themselves in relationship with the Lord of whom the scriptures speak.
MM
It’s not be about trusting in any version. It be all about spirituality you say. Than what be our moral compass and what be our final authority? MM I do recall all through the bible reminding us that God does esteem his word most highly. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path: Thy word have I hid in mine heart
Psalms 119. The word of God be the living word. Spirituality and the Word of God go hand in hand.Spirituality without boundaries. MM how do we determine Spirituality without boundaries or the book.? You than continue to enlighten us that the thread be evolving from the lower levels of the bible? to true spirituality. You do make me smile : ) Does sound very much like a evolutionary process . Where shall it take us you think. To be one with the universe or perhaps back to the planet of the apes ?
♀
MM I will continue to ponder and consider your thoughts
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No, Prim, it's not about gravitating down to the levels of mysticism and pseudo-spirituality. There's nothing mystical about 1 John 2:27. If we stick to the confines of what I actually said, there's no way to derive such a path.
MM
MM
MM I’m not in such a good mood at the moment especially when someone splashed explicit content over my post when they could have merely deleted the words they thought imposed on section 3:1 without dishonouring ones post in red wording saying explicit content over ones post. I probably won’t be here long enough to discuss matters further. But I do wish you well for the future in all Gods love and care. Prim
Prim my 2cents this post i becoming like a pencil with two erasers no point
the best Bible translation is “all the good ones.”
It’s not be about trusting in any version. It be all about spirituality you say. Than what be our moral compass and what be our final authority? MM I do recall all through the bible reminding us that God does esteem his word most highly. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path: Thy word have I hid in mine heart
Spirituality without boundaries. MM how do we determine Spirituality without boundaries or the book.? You than continue to enlighten us that the thread be evolving from the lower levels of the bible? to true spirituality. You do make me smile : ) Does sound very much like a evolutionary process . Where shall it take us you think. To be one with the universe or perhaps back to the planet of the apes ?
1 Corinthians 2:13 — Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Spirituality versus walking, talking, breathing and being spiritual minded, there is a contrast. Spirituality is a very generic term that can encompass pagan religions and their practices. They consider their lives to be steeped in spirituality. What is different about our walk, all who are in Christ, we do not strive for spirituality. Walking in the spirit each day is a way of life that has no use for mystical experiences. Walking in the spirit is the only way we can exude a life of faith. They go hand in hand.
If someone asks how one enters into that, I would have to say that it is not something that happens by our own effort. It is an empowerment that only comes from the Most High. Humility, meekness, contrite...all the qualities Chrsit Jesus inspired to be written about His earthly walk, that is where we see the example for us to follow.
In other words, there is no formula in how we find ourselves filled and lifted up into spiritual life. Remembering how the Lord looks upon the heart is sobering enough. Going before the Lord on one's knees, and imploring Him for His greater works in our hearts...that is a beginning.
Fenelon and others like him made mistakes by trapsing into the mystical arenas of spiritual pursuits, and the errors in their understanding of scripture and the Lord became glari guy obvious.
Hope this helps.
MM
MM spirituality does express itself in many ways throughout the entire church but that is always checked or should be checked by the bible. More so with with the fruits of the spirit as such in the epistles like Ephesians, Romans, Corinthians Galatians and probably throughout the entire bible. Each believer is equally touched by the spirit of God at conversion it be a ongoing process of how much work God has to do in remoulding us. I do think upon death be the final completion and transition of that. Agreed the joys and riches that Jesus brings to our lives be unsearchable. But that in no way relegates the bible as mere sign posts to the Lord. It be the living word of God quickening our spirits with his in so many unfathomable ways. It be for correction and daily teaching of doctrine and daily exhortation of the God and how we live our lives. As to 1st Corinthians 2: 13 it be referring to the wisdom of men which we are not to trust nor follow in spiritual matters. Where does that comparing of spiritual things with spiritual things come from you think ? The Bible is also God breathed is it not. Have you considered that being part of the Spirit of God guiding us in all things as well ? Yes spirituality can be very generic and very diversified: be that pagan or be that within the church. But highly dangerous either way if unchecked by the word of God. Are we to allow spirituality to determine all matters? MM I’m sure your intentions be honourable . But there be many whose motives not be so honourable. Their motives seek a entirely different outcome to which our Protestant faith did once boldly claim. That being to Sola Scriptoria all must heed and submit. Even kings, Bishops and Popes
If the subject was not so serious your comment would be funny.
We are reminded...in the end times there will be great deceptions.
Nothing could be greater than being misled and loosing salvation.
nothing to do with salvation. when a admin edits a post do to words that dont need to be there
I agree that the Bible is good for actions, such as quickening and correcting and such, but it's still just a tool with paper and ink, or virtual. Either way, it's a given that the enemy of our souls will turn anything and everything around, and against those who are susceptible to enshrining the Bible at such a high level that their eyes are no longer upon the one of Whom the Bible speaks. We will not be carrying Bible around in eternity because the sanctification process will be complete. On this earth, however, in this life, the sanctification process is ongoing. The Bible will remain a valuable tool, but more importantly is the instruction of Holy Spirit, as is promised and sealed in stone in 1 John 2:27.
We all continue to study the Bible, but more importantly is that relationship with the One of whom it speaks. I'm sure we both agree on that. I have head knowledge from what I have spent years studying in the Bible, but of greater depth and eternal value is what the Lord has imparted to me directly. It is that impartation that has given life to the words written on paper or on the computer screen.
THAT is the order of importance that the scriptures uphold.
MM
Hello Musicmaster and Prim90;
Excellent posts and the dialogue (blue-lighted) between you two ministers to me.
MM, you and I have discussed Systematic and Biblical Theology but I would like to share the Application that we apply from our study (whether KJV or NIV.)
We were having a wonderful lunch and fellowship with our new Church friends after worship service yesterday. Our 17 year old nephew was with us. MM, it reminded me of our blessed meals that you, our wives and I had when we were visiting you folks last year.
Suddenly my wife received a disturbing call from a member of our former Church and when she hung up she was so disappointed that she opened up to everyone. I felt uncomfortable for her to personally open up to our new Church members during lunch. Usually my wife will keep matters such as this to herself and discuss with me later. But I could sense she was really bothered and needed to share her burden amongst everyone.
This was the prompting of the Holy Spirit. To put aside pride and trust those that my wife opened up to. The four who listened did not judge my wife for opening up but for having compassionate listening ears, and being there for her. One of the sisters suggested we pray and my wife led the prayer.
Psalm 41:1-2, 1 Blessed are those who have regard for the weak; the Lord delivers them in times of trouble. 2 The Lord protects and preserves them—they are counted among the blessed in the land—he does not give them over to the desire of their foes. - NIV
After lunch we thanked everyone and was going to gather with 5 members of our former Church that evening to discuss the issue. It was decided to wait, go home, pray, calm our hearts and get some rest.
In my mind, we had such a great day of worship and lunch until this happened. Well, in ministry things happen at a time we don't expect. Question is, how do we receive the application of God's Word and apply it? After a good night's sleep we are more calm and plan to meet in the evening. We hope to encourage the 5 members on how to proceed and bring resolve with the former Church.
Luke 12:11-12, 11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. - KJV
I keep several Bibles in my bookcase next to my desk and will cross reference translations as I'm led in all circumstances. I do take God's Word serious. It's just my way of seeking His guidance in our lives, family and ministry.
God bless you both and everyone here.
Blessings to you and your wife, Bob. Without the direction from the Lord in dealings with others, we would be no more than mere shoulders to lean on with little to nothing of value to contribute. What the Spirit prompts us to share with others, THAT is where the true substance for healing is brought into the given situation. Quoting Bible verses to the hurting and distraught is great, but still inferior to the direct intervention of Holy Spirit.
Where the scriptures touch upon the trunk of human problems and suffering, it's the strength of the Spirit (the Root system) AND the trunk (the scriptures) that keep the tree from being blown over in the strong winds that push against the myriads of branches and twigs of complexity that wave about in the winds of life.
MM
Bob.......it has been my experience that when we leave one church for another, the members of the church we left pretty much excommunicate you.
When my wife and I were much younger we left two church's.
1st time was when the pastor spoke and stated that there was nothing about Halloween that a Christian should be troubled with.
2nd time was when the pastor said that not everyone believes in the physical 2nd coming of Jesus and he was one of those people.
When church members leave the church you pastor, there is usually an alterative reason other than the one than give.
I had two couples leave our church but I learned it was because I said that Black people and Red will be in heaven along side of them.
I had a couple leave and later learned that the wife insisted on being a deacon.
I had a couple leave and later learned that the wife wanted to speak in tongues and I would not allow it.
I had a couple leave and then i learned the husband insisted that the church spend ALL the money it had and survive simply on faith.
Hello Major;
I understand what you went through as a pastor.
In our case I was led by the Lord in January 2021 to step down so a younger minister could succeed me for the vision and future of our Church. We ordained our new pastor last January 2022 and I left on a good note. However, it was healthy for my wife and I to go and serve in a struggling Church, and with sound wisdom and counsel we were called there last June 2022.
It just so happened that a member of the former Church that my wife trained, contacted her regarding a Church matter that I cannot divulge.
Like you, as the former pastor I could clearly see this was a matter that needed listening and ministering to. Meantime, (where is the current pastor?) Once I gather the information tonight I will follow up with him. I seemed to have earned his respect during the time he was interviewing with the pulpit committee and myself which took a whole year. I ended up submitting my recommendation when the Church voted him in during December 2021.
God bless you, Major.