Learning Genesis

[Major]

Well right now, I can only describe him as an historical figure (as you eloquently describe). I'm not being evasive, I simply don't have a link between Jesus and a god because I don't believe in the latter. You must see that I can't put any other attributes to Jesus because of that?

OK.....now that we have established that fact, you must put away the idea of intellectualism. You are falling back on an intellectual answer so as to not face the question at hand.. "I do not have a link between Jesus and a god because I do not believe in the latter".
I am not asking you if you believe in God.

I have talked to literally thousands of people who come across exactly as you are doing. That is not bad nor good, just a way or reaction to the question. You seem to be an intelligent person but intellectualism is not required because intellect is not the problem Tubby. To find a cure, we must 1st find the sickness. Do you concur????

The sickness is SIN. That is YOUR problem. We are SIN SICK! By the way, it is the same problem as every single person on the earth has...SIN!!! We are are infected and we all need to be healed.

Jesus IS A HISTORICAL figure, that is the fact and you just agreed with that. . ...
Now, there is not an intellectual answer that you can give and one is not needed.
Even the most un-intelligent person, when given the facts of a situation, can then give their educated opinion. That is what I am now asking you.

WHOM DO YOU SAY THAT JESUS IS?

He could have been a liar.
He could have been a lunatic.
He could have been a religious nut case.
He could have been the Son of God.

Now, according to the information available to YOU, who do you say that Jesus is?
I am asking you who YOU think Jesus is, based on the available information

 

[Major]

Welcome to the restaurant, my name is Ryan and I will be your waiter for the rest of the evening. Forgive the previous waiter for his rudeness, however; he cannot be fired as he has protection from the union. At this restaurant is a wide array of choices from the menu, and feel free to inquire about each item as I would be more than happy to describe each item in detail before you place your order. I do have a policy though, No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service. If you can abide by those, all will be well. So anything on the menu that is catching your attention? IF you don't like any of the items, enjoy the complimentary cup of tea.

OK.........enough of the food talk! My wife has placed me on a strict diet and you guys are driving me crazy!!!

 

[TubbyTubby]

Welcome to the restaurant, my name is Ryan and I will be your waiter for the rest of the evening. Forgive the previous waiter for his rudeness, however; he cannot be fired as he has protection from the union. At this restaurant is a wide array of choices from the menu, and feel free to inquire about each item as I would be more than happy to describe each item in detail before you place your order. I do have a policy though, No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service. If you can abide by those, all will be well. So anything on the menu that is catching your attention? IF you don't like any of the items, enjoy the complimentary cup of tea.

I am properly dressed, I'd like to try the chefs special of the day.

 

[Silk]

So much for studying Genesis, eh? Stop this incessant complaint. We know where everyone stands - the segueway is no longer legitimate. I disagree that you have to believe in God to discuss Genesis or any other book in the Bible. I think faith gives an advantage but apparently it cannot stick with the OP!

 

[Ryan Lepko]

I am properly dressed, I'd like to try the chefs special of the day.

Sure, as this is the Genesis Restaurant, the chefs special is:

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

or

Bereisheet bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz

or

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

It is a rather complicated dish to prepare, so expect a long wait. I myself am still new to this profession, so be patient. Corkage fee is $15.95 per bottle if the complimentary tea is not cutting it.

 

[Brother Paul]

Tubby,

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

Why don't you tell us how you believe it all began? I know when I was a non-believer I had put my faith in the replacement myth that there was an infinitismally small point that contained all the matter and energy we now observe, and that in a 10th of a trillionth of a second BANG! Sound and light suddenly were, and from there all the planets and stars began to form...but why?

So is this the basis of your faith as well? If so, where did this tiny point come from and where was it? Space, after all, is a quality of this universe (less than)...so where did this point exist and where could it have come from? So Space then has to become something already extant IN WHICH this occurred, but most physics implies there is no space the universe is in but that all space is WITHIN (not saying I believe this either). But if one says it was always there, doesn't this make it eternal (thus admitting an Eternal can exist)? If we say that at one point in time the Big Bang occurred, the problem is that physics implies that Time is also a quality of this universe (less than), and would not have preceded it for this to have occurred.

Just curious as to the basis of your faith system.


brother Paul

 

[TubbyTubby]

Tubby,

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

Why don't you tell us how you believe it all began? I know when I was a non-believer I had put my faith in the replacement myth that there was an infinitismally small point that contained all the matter and energy we now observe, and that in a 10th of a trillionth of a second BANG! Sound and light suddenly were, and from there all the planets and stars began to form...but why?

So is this the basis of your faith as well? If so, where did this tiny point come from and where was it? Space, after all, is a quality of this universe (less than)...so where did this point exist and where could it have come from? So Space then has to become something already extant IN WHICH this occurred, but most physics implies there is no space the universe is in but that all space is WITHIN (not saying I believe this either). But if one says it was always there, doesn't this make it eternal (thus admitting an Eternal can exist)? If we say that at one point in time the Big Bang occurred, the problem is that physics implies that Time is also a quality of this universe (less than), and would not have preceded it for this to have occurred.

Just curious as to the basis of your faith system.


brother Paul

I agree with the expanding universe theory and hence also a big bang origin. I don't know what happened before the big bang and I don't know what the cause was. I don't have a faith system.

 

[TubbyTubby]

Tubby,

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

Why don't you tell us how you believe it all began? I know when I was a non-believer I had put my faith in the replacement myth that there was an infinitismally small point that contained all the matter and energy we now observe, and that in a 10th of a trillionth of a second BANG! Sound and light suddenly were, and from there all the planets and stars began to form...but why?

So is this the basis of your faith as well? If so, where did this tiny point come from and where was it? Space, after all, is a quality of this universe (less than)...so where did this point exist and where could it have come from? So Space then has to become something already extant IN WHICH this occurred, but most physics implies there is no space the universe is in but that all space is WITHIN (not saying I believe this either). But if one says it was always there, doesn't this make it eternal (thus admitting an Eternal can exist)? If we say that at one point in time the Big Bang occurred, the problem is that physics implies that Time is also a quality of this universe (less than), and would not have preceded it for this to have occurred.

Just curious as to the basis of your faith system.


brother Paul

I agree with the expanding universe theory and hence also a big bang origin. I don't know what happened before the big bang and I don't know what the cause was. I don't have a faith system.

 

[Silk]

I finally found that scientist who figured mathmatically about the 6 days.

 

[Mitspa]

Interesting Silk, this guy could have a part of the answer? Thanks for posting this

 

[Abdicate]

I agree with the expanding universe theory and hence also a big bang origin. I don't know what happened before the big bang and I don't know what the cause was. I don't have a faith system.

It's still a belief system. You're just putting faith in what others have found - whether it's correct or not.

 

[TubbyTubby]

It's still a belief system. You're just putting faith in what others have found - whether it's correct or not.

I was asked what my faith system is, and I don't have one. If you have evidence, you don't need faith to allow you to believe that evidence.
Or, in other words, faith substitutes emotion for evidence.

I don't need faith to know that there are at least 67 moons orbiting Jupiter because there is evidence for that, and I look at the larger ones quite often with my own eyes.

If there is something that I don't have evidence for (what caused the big bang for instance) then I have to admit to myself that I don't know what caused the big bang. What I don't do is put an answer there purely based on faith and say it is true. My mind simply doesn't work that way.

Clearly, this is where you and I differ. I understand that you use faith to give you answers where you have no evidence or tangible proof, no matter how I try to think about it I can't allow my brain to deceive itself (or my brain won't allow it I suppose).

 

[Silk]

I always say...two ways to be fooled .

 

[Abdicate]

I was asked what my faith system is, and I don't have one. If you have evidence, you don't need faith to allow you to believe that evidence.
Or, in other words, faith substitutes emotion for evidence.

I don't need faith to know that there are at least 67 moons orbiting Jupiter because there is evidence for that, and I look at the larger ones quite often with my own eyes.

If there is something that I don't have evidence for (what caused the big bang for instance) then I have to admit to myself that I don't know what caused the big bang. What I don't do is put an answer there purely based on faith and say it is true. My mind simply doesn't work that way.

Clearly, this is where you and I differ. I understand that you use faith to give you answers where you have no evidence or tangible proof, no matter how I try to think about it I can't allow my brain to deceive itself (or my brain won't allow it I suppose).

Not at all. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. I explained that many posts ago. God doesn't wish blind faith. Just like no one has seen the wind or dark matter, but the evidence is there. It's all in Who you trust.

 

[TubbyTubby]

Not at all. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. I explained that many posts ago. God doesn't wish blind faith. Just like no one has seen the wind or dark matter, but the evidence is there. It's all in Who you trust.

We'll go round in circles here. I understand your concept of faith but you cannot have "evidence of things not seen". That statement is not a description of evidence, it is a falsehood. If you say "faith is the belief in things not seen because of an absence of evidence" then I would agree.

I'm not questioning faith or what it is, just your interpretation of it.

 

[Abdicate]

We'll go round in circles here. I understand your concept of faith but you cannot have "evidence of things not seen". That statement is not a description of evidence, it is a falsehood. If you say "faith is the belief in things not seen because of an absence of evidence" then I would agree.

I'm not questioning faith or what it is, just your interpretation of it.

Thanks, but I didn't write its definition:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[TubbyTubby]

Thanks, but I didn't write its definition:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ah, I didn't realise it was from the bible. In that case I guess it's not easy for you to shift your opinion then.

All I can say is that maybe it could be interpreted differently then, as taken literally it sort of contradicts the actual meaning of the word "evidence". Unless we just accept between us that for you Faith=Evidence but for me Faith<>Evidence. That would clear it up I suppose.

 

[Abdicate]

Ah, I didn't realise it was from the bible. In that case I guess it's not easy for you to shift your opinion then.

All I can say is that maybe it could be interpreted differently then, as taken literally it sort of contradicts the actual meaning of the word "evidence". Unless we just accept between us that for you Faith=Evidence but for me Faith<>Evidence. That would clear it up I suppose.

Faith is the currency of heaven; it's what gets you in, and it's what sustains you here on earth. I found myself in $110,000 in credit card debt because I couldn't find a job... I prayed for God's help and I surrendered it to Him. I got a well-paying job, then I bought a house (yea, they still let me buy one) and in Jan 2006 the Lord told me to sell it. I bought it for $192,000 and sold it for $427,000, then that summer the housing market died and I was now debt free with money in the bank. Faith is trusting in God to take care of you. Faith is evidence of things not seen. I saw God would take care of me, and it was so, according to my faith. God is not a genie to get whatever it is we want, but He gives us what we need. Sometimes the answers are "No" and other times it's "Not yet". I trust He knows better than I and so I wait in faith, the currency of heaven.

 

[TubbyTubby]

Faith is the currency of heaven; it's what gets you in, and it's what sustains you here on earth. I found myself in $110,000 in credit card debt because I couldn't find a job... I prayed for God's help and I surrendered it to Him. I got a well-paying job, then I bought a house (yea, they still let me buy one) and in Jan 2006 the Lord told me to sell it. I bought it for $192,000 and sold it for $427,000, then that summer the housing market died and I was now debt free with money in the bank. Faith is trusting in God to take care of you. Faith is evidence of things not seen. I saw God would take care of me, and it was so, according to my faith. God is not a genie to get whatever it is we want, but He gives us what we need. Sometimes the answers are "No" and other times it's "Not yet". I trust He knows better than I and so I wait in faith, the currency of heaven.

I see, so the more that you accept faith as actual evidence, the richer you will be in heaven, so to speak. I understand that a bit more now and can see how that whole concept must be so intoxicating for some people.

Conversely, I suppose that any show of doubt in bible scripture is seen as a sort of debit from your faith bank account so you want to avoid doing that.

It pretty much ties your hands as to accepting anything else other than god and the bible.

 

[Abdicate]

I see, so the more that you accept faith as actual evidence, the richer you will be in heaven, so to speak. I understand that a bit more now and can see how that whole concept must be so intoxicating for some people.

Conversely, I suppose that any show of doubt in bible scripture is seen as a sort of debit from your faith bank account so you want to avoid doing that.

It pretty much ties your hands as to accepting anything else other than god and the bible.

Actually, God gives you the faith you need to "cash it in" so to speak. It's all about God.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.