Legit Question

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On another thread you wrote, "What is biblical, is biblical."

I don't follow denominations at all, and denominations don't understand me: if this was a "church setting", I would probably have already been shown the door. I also like the verse you posted, but I would rather enjoy fellowship in the full Gospel.

Yeah as long as the church is sharing the full Gospel, then they're A-OK in my book. When I read the first part of revelations I get the impression that there were different "denominations" back then. I think what the focus was, was not so much how they worshipped God, but the sins being committed.

So the problem I have with any denominations, is the ones that are being seeker friendly, and too scared to speak about sin, because they don't want to offend anyone. No church of God should ever water down the truth in order to conform to the masses.
 
Yeah as long as the church is sharing the full Gospel, then they're A-OK in my book. When I read the first part of revelations I get the impression that there were different "denominations" back then. I think what the focus was, was not so much how they worshipped God, but the sins being committed.
So the problem I have with any denominations, is the ones that are being seeker friendly, and too scared to speak about sin, because they don't want to offend anyone. No church of God should ever water down the truth in order to conform to the masses.
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I was in prison when I first read the Bible. The only scripture that stuck to my mind was: "Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: it is the number of [a] man; and his number is 6-6-6."

So I started looking for the man's number, and all of a sudden I realized that I could not know the number because I didn't have wisdom or understanding! I almost wanted to cry. Where was I to get wisdom and understanding?

More than a few years later, my dad died...without me fullfilling a promise I had made to him. And I did cry. But I already had some truth in me, and said, "Lord Jesus, You be my Father!" I believe He heard.
 
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(1) preaching and teaching are not the same: preaching imparts faith to the unsaved; teaching, convinces the unsaved

(2) The works of the flesh...does any denomination really do that? I mean, who's teaching that it's OK to sin?

(3) Yes, you did: and I apologize.

(4) I'm sorry: I didn't realize that Jesus, and John the Baptist, and Peter, and John the apostle, and the other ten apostles, and Paul did not believe in baptism "...for the remission of sins...". I apologize (not)!

Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Once more: "He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved."
Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said: "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Hoily Spirit.
Ooops! There's another who was mistaken: the Holy Spirit (not)!

"faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ" (Romans 10:17).

1. A preacher/ teacher is going to use the word of God for both things. Thus faith is instilled by both. You are really trying to create an issue out of a non issue with the preacher/ teacher thing.

2. I never said that denominations are teaching that it is okay to sin. What I said again is,

"However, if a denomination is teaching salvation through works, then they are not teaching the gospel."

My statement here has nothing to do with teaching that it is okay to sin. What I am saying is that if a denomination teaches that someone has to do something other than believe by faith they are teaching a works doctrine which is what you teach since you believe that a water baptism ceremony is necessary for salvation.

I do not have anything against water baptism at all. I only disagree that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

4."I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11)."

John the Baptist did not have the ability to forgive sins and to save the people. Jesus was greater (the true salvation) and he baptized with the Holy Spirit which is a water baptism. Jesus did have the ability to forgive sins and to save people.

1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home" (Matthew 9:1-9:6).

Tell me was this man saved? Were his sins forgiven even though he did not have the ceremonial water baptism?

48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace (Luke 7:48-50).

Was this lady saved by Jesus? Did she have a ceremonial water baptism?

Neither place does Jesus instruct the people to go have a water baptism after he forgives their sins.

37Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:37-39).

Here is the water baptism from Jesus that continually cleanses us from sin.

Titus 3:5 talks about this a salvation, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

It is the Holy Spirit that washes us and renews us.
"
 
"faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ" ().
1. A preacher/ teacher is going to use the word of God for both things. Thus faith is instilled by both. You are really trying to create an issue out of a non issue with the preacher/ teacher thing.
2. I never said that denominations are teaching that it is okay to sin. What I said again is,
"However, if a denomination is teaching salvation through works, then they are not teaching the gospel."
My statement here has nothing to do with teaching that it is okay to sin. What I am saying is that if a denomination teaches that someone has to do something other than believe by faith they are teaching a works doctrine which is what you teach since you believe that a water baptism ceremony is necessary for salvation.
I do not have anything against water baptism at all. I only disagree that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Beloved Olivia,
(1) A preacher primarily points to the Gospel that saves; a teacher is an office in the Lord's Ministry, and he is primarily to teach those in the faith "...the work of the ministry...";
(2) Your statement on denominations teaching salvation by works is nonessential, unless you assumed that that is my doctrine;
(3) I do not teach a ceremonial baptism, which would be foolish: I preach Peter's baptism "...for the remission of sins...";
(4) rejecting water baptism is not "believing by faith": it is a false doctrine because it denounces part of the Gospel message;
(5) you admit that you "only disagree" with water baptism; but it is part of "...to fullfill all righteousness.

The rest of your current post corresponds to the OT; it is prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, prior to His ascension, and prior to the outpouring of the Holy spirit; which is, the BIRTH of the Church. John's baptism was for repentance, and the other baptisms were actually "washings" under the Law, which the Lord Jesus was fullfilling.

On topic: Abraham did not just believe God; Abraham believed God's promise. And just what promise is one called to believe? "...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is unto you...". Once more: "For by grace are you saved tthrough faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...".

The pattern of repentance, water baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit was sanctioned by the words of Jesus, the Holy Spirit in the ApostlePeter, and by the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. Those three elements of the Gospel correspond to the operation of God in the spirit, body, and soul of man. If you can receive this: man (the crown of God's creation) believes in his heart, repents with his soul, and obeys withhis body.

Walk in Holiness, Beloved.
 
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Beloved Olivia,
(1) A preacher primarily points to the Gospel that saves; a teacher is an office in the Lord's Ministry, and he is primarily to teach those in the faith "...the work of the ministry...";
(2) Your statement on denominations teaching salvation by works is nonessential, unless you assumed that that is my doctrine;
(3) I do not teach a ceremonial baptism, which would be foolish: I preach Peter's baptism "...for the remission of sins...";
(4) rejecting water baptism is not "believing by faith": it is a false doctrine because it denounces part of the Gospel message;
(5) you admit that you "only disagree" with water baptism; but it is part of "...to fullfill all righteousness.

The rest of your current post corresponds to the OT; it is prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, prior to His ascension, and prior to the outpouring of the Holy spirit; which is, the BIRTH of the Church. John's baptism was for repentance, and the other baptisms were actually "washings" under the Law, which the Lord Jesus was fullfilling.

On topic: Abraham did not just believe God; Abraham believed God's promise. And just what promise is one called to believe? "...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is unto you...". Once more: "For by grace are you saved tthrough faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...".

The pattern of repentance, water baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit was sanctioned by the words of Jesus, the Holy Spirit in the ApostlePeter, and by the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. Those three elements of the Gospel correspond to the operation of God in the spirit, body, and soul of man. If you can receive this: man (the crown of God's creation) believes in his heart, repents with his soul, and obeys withhis body.

Walk in Holiness, Beloved.
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Beloved Olivia,
(1) A preacher primarily points to the Gospel that saves; a teacher is an office in the Lord's Ministry, and he is primarily to teach those in the faith "...the work of the ministry...";
(2) Your statement on denominations teaching salvation by works is nonessential, unless you assumed that that is my doctrine;
(3) I do not teach a ceremonial baptism, which would be foolish: I preach Peter's baptism "...for the remission of sins...";
(4) rejecting water baptism is not "believing by faith": it is a false doctrine because it denounces part of the Gospel message;
(5) you admit that you "only disagree" with water baptism; but it is part of "...to fullfill all righteousness.

The rest of your current post corresponds to the OT; it is prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, prior to His ascension, and prior to the outpouring of the Holy spirit; which is, the BIRTH of the Church. John's baptism was for repentance, and the other baptisms were actually "washings" under the Law, which the Lord Jesus was fullfilling.

On topic: Abraham did not just believe God; Abraham believed God's promise. And just what promise is one called to believe? "...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is unto you...". Once more: "For by grace are you saved tthrough faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...".

The pattern of repentance, water baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit was sanctioned by the words of Jesus, the Holy Spirit in the ApostlePeter, and by the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. Those three elements of the Gospel correspond to the operation of God in the spirit, body, and soul of man. If you can receive this: man (the crown of God's creation) believes in his heart, repents with his soul, and obeys withhis body.

Walk in Holiness, Beloved.

1. "And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ" (Acts 5:42).

What were they teaching? The gospel. "House to house," means to the unsaved.

"Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 4:23).

What was Jesus doing teaching and proclaiming (not preaching) the gospel.

2. Actually my response was to your response on my post, so you thought it was essential to discuss we me. I had to speak to your reply that said, "If one is teaching the Gospel that saves (TRUE Gospel), the teaching of "works of the flesh" cannot void the Gospel."

As you recall, I told you, " If someone is teaching or preaching the works of the flesh they can't void the gospel, but they can lead people astray and cause them not to know the gospel."

3. Ceremonial water baptism is an outward expression of the person repenting of their sins and them identifying with the death burial and resurrection of Christ, knowing that their sins were crucified with Christ, that they died to sin, and that they arose a new creation in Christ.

True water baptism is the inward cleansing and salvation of a believer which is done because of Christ's works through the Holy Spirit.

Again, "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11)."

Titus 3:5 talks about this a salvation, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

It is the Holy Spirit that washes us and renews us.

Again I will show you these scriptures, "1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home" (Matthew 9:1-9:6).


48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace (Luke 7:48-50).

Again I will ask you, Were these people saved even though they did not have the outward water baptism? Please answer this time?

4. I don't reject water baptism. I am completely for outward water baptism it if someone wants it and think it is a beautiful expression of someone's inward salvation if it is done with real sincerity and love for God. Nevertheless water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

5.We can't fulfill any righteousness, only Jesus could, because we were all sinners needing a perfect savior. Only Jesus was good and only Jesus was perfect and he was the one to fulfill all righteousness which he did here on earth for our sakes.

Jesus speaking, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-18).
 
1. "And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ" (Acts 5:42).
What were they teaching? The gospel. "House to house," means to the unsaved.
"Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 4:23).
What was Jesus doing teaching and proclaiming (not preaching) the gospel.
2. Actually my response was to your response on my post, so you thought it was essential to discuss we me. I had to speak to your reply that said, "If one is teaching the Gospel that saves (TRUE Gospel), the teaching of "works of the flesh" cannot void the Gospel."
As you recall, I told you, " If someone is teaching or preaching the works of the flesh they can't void the gospel, but they can lead people astray and cause them not to know the gospel."
3. Ceremonial water baptism is an outward expression of the person repenting of their sins and them identifying with the death burial and resurrection of Christ, knowing that their sins were crucified with Christ, that they died to sin, and that they arose a new creation in Christ.
True water baptism is the inward cleansing and salvation of a believer which is done because of Christ's works through the Holy Spirit.
Again, "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11)."
Titus 3:5 talks about this a salvation, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
It is the Holy Spirit that washes us and renews us.
Agan I will show you these scriptures, "1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home" (Matthew 9:1-9:6).
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace (Luke 7:48-50).
Again I will ask you, Were these people saved even though they did not have the outward water baptism? Please answer this time?
4. I don't reject water baptism. I am completely for outward water baptism it if someone wants it and think it is a beautiful expression of someone's inward salvation if it is done with real sincerity and love for God. Nevertheless water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
5.We can't fulfill any righteousness, only Jesus could, because we were all sinners needing a perfect savior. Only Jesus was good and only Jesus was perfect and he was the one to fulfill all righteousness which he did here on earth for our sakes.
Jesus speaking, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-18).
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(1) You are quite correct: "...they went breaking bread from house to house...ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."
But there's a big difference between the Mormons, JW's, those who preach predestination and saved by faith through Grace,
and myself: they are all over the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation (and many of those scriptures are right on) "proving" their doctrine; I begin and remain at the core of the Gospel. You see, "their" doctrine must correspond with my Gospel!

(2) Again you are correct: but your response was negative, as if I was teaching a works salvation. But you and a couple of others on this forum do that: making yourselves seem more righteous.

(3) You are again using OT to justify the NT. Jesus was fullfilling the Law by obeying it and by doing and preaching what the Law actually does: being a "...type and shadow..." of things to come. The "washings" in the OT are types of today's baptism.
The difference is, today we need only to be baptized once: "...one Lord, one faith, one baptism...". Some will say that it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that sounds right. However, we receive the Holy Spirit, and are baptized into Christ.
Now, John's baptism was righteous, but we have a greater baptism than John's. His baptism was two-fold: it was because of repentance; and to receive the sign of God of Who was the Messiah. The following day after baptizing Jesus, John proclaimed:
"Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." We baptize for the remission of sins, and we proclaim that the
Lord is coming again!

(4) You "don't reject" water baptism for someone who wants it: but do you preach baptism, or believe you need it? No?
Then of course you reject baptism! What is the testimony of the Church in Acts? "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized...". That, Beloved, is the pattern expressed in the New Testament Church; but not by itself, it is preceded by repentance, and followed by the Spirit that will resurrect the believer from the dead.

(5) Again you are correct: we were all sinners. I also believe Matt. 5:17-18 _ and believe that the Lord has accomplished all things: but we still await "...the redemption of our bodies...". I also believe this: "Whoso offers praise glorifies me; and whosoever shall direct his conversation aright, I will show the salvation of God."

Beloved, walk in His love
 
Religion is power, morale authority is power... as long as men seek the moral authority of God there will be false religion. The term anti-Christ, does not mean "against" but means "to put in the place of" This is the spirit that works in the "Church" all these false doctrines work to put men in the place Of Christ and to replace the Holy Spirit as that which rules and governs the "church". They can even claim to put the Holy Spirit in a "canister" and shake it around. How sad are men and unable to see the truth?
 
Religion is power, morale authority is power... as long as men seek the moral authority of God there will be false religion. The term anti-Christ, does not mean "against" but means "to put in the place of" This is the spirit that works in the "Church" all these false doctrines work to put men in the place Of Christ and to replace the Holy Spirit as that which rules and governs the "church". They can even claim to put the Holy Spirit in a "canister" and shake it around. How sad are men and unable to see the truth?
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You mean "as long as men seek their own moral authority instead of God", right? God's moral authority would make us all moral: I don't think the enemy would like that.
Again, you are very correct. People will reject "anti-Christ"; but they are embracing "instead of Christ"! But that spirit is not working in the Church"; it is working in the denominations who are luring folks away from the Gospel which Paul said "By which also you are saved...": even luring men away by the gospel that saves by faith through grace. It is only the Gospel that saves; and the Lord's doctrines that can keep us saved...if we be "...willing and obey...".

Men can see truth: but they justify themselves because they have rejected the anti-Christ; but only to accept the "instead of Christ"! Jesus is surely the head of the Church, just as He is "...the head of every man...": even you and I. If we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is to submit and give Him His proper place: as Head of the Church. When a man rejects the Gospel and puts doctrine as precedent to the Gospel, he is placing himself as the head of himself, and would be the head of other men. The Gospel precedes any doctrine: for it was before any doctrine: even before the Law!
 
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You mean "as long as men seek their own moral authority instead of God", right? God's moral authority would make us all moral: I don't think the enemy would like that.
Again, you are very correct. People will reject "anti-Christ"; but they are embracing "instead of Christ"! But that spirit is not working in the Church"; it is working in the denominations who are luring folks away from the Gospel which Paul said "By which also you are saved...": even luring men away by the gospel that saves by faith through grace. It is only the Gospel that saves; and the Lord's doctrines that can keep us saved...if we be "...willing and obey...".

Men can see truth: but they justify themselves because they have rejected the anti-Christ; but only to accept the "instead of Christ"! Jesus is surely the head of the Church, just as He is "...the head of every man...": even you and I. If we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is to submit and give Him His proper place: as Head of the Church. When a man rejects the Gospel and puts doctrine as precedent to the Gospel, he is placing himself as the head of himself, and would be the head of other men. The Gospel precedes any doctrine: for it was before any doctrine: even before the Law!
What I have said is that men are "going about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted to Gods righteousness" Which is the foundation of all authority that was given to the church. Now these wolves in sheeps clothing have through this false "morale" authority, perverted the doctrines of the true gospel, which is based entirely upon Gods righteousness alone. Just as satan and his ministers appear as "ministers of righteousness" they use that "appearance" of righteousness to bring others under their false systems of power and control. This is the source of all the corruption and ungodliness we see in the "church" man attempting to present the appearance of righteousness, and not presenting Gods righteousness.
 
What I have said is that men are "going about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted to Gods righteousness" Which is the foundation of all authority that was given to the church. Now these wolves in sheeps clothing have through this false "morale" authority, perverted the doctrines of the true gospel, which is based entirely upon Gods righteousness alone. Just as satan and his ministers appear as "ministers of righteousness" they use that "appearance" of righteousness to bring others under their false systems of power and control. This is the source of all the corruption and ungodliness we see in the "church" man attempting to present the appearance of righteousness, and not presenting Gods righteousness.
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Again, I agree with you as far as those who "preach" their own righteousness, aside from the righteousness that the Lord has witnessed in His apostles and prophets, that we may believe their testimony: and their testimony is the Gospel.

Beloved, too often we stumble on our own terminology: and it hinders us to "...speak the same thing...". Beloved, I understand you, when you say that "works" cannot save us; but you do not seem to understand me when I say that our own works cannot save us: but "...we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, that God has before ordained that we should walk in them."
Those good works begin with the Gospel of Christ.

Beloved, satan and his ministers do not preach righteousness (not that I think that is what you are implying): they divert from any righteous work. They will use only a little truth (repeat a scripture) in order to introduce a lie. We only need to look at Eve in the garden, and Jesus when the Holy Spirit took him to the desert to be tempted of satan. The tactics are the same.

Now this: the Church is perfect, pure, and holy before the Lord; even as the Lord Jesus is perfect, pure and holy. For the Lord does not see us as we are; He sees us as His Bride, chaste and unblemished before Him. What is lacking in the Church is that we do not look past the veil of flesh, to see to each other as we ought.
But the "denominations" like to carry their own names: so they put the NAME of Jesus in a secondary place: just as they put their own righteousness before the Lord's righteousness!
 
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Again, I agree with you as far as those who "preach" their own righteousness, aside from the righteousness that the Lord has witnessed in His apostles and prophets, that we may believe their testimony: and their testimony is the Gospel.

Beloved, too often we stumble on our own terminology: and it hinders us to "...speak the same thing...". Beloved, I understand you, when you say that "works" cannot save us; but you do not seem to understand me when I say that our own works cannot save us: but "...we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, that God has before ordained that we should walk in them."
Those good works begin with the Gospel of Christ.

Beloved, satan and his ministers do not preach righteousness (not that I think that is what you are implying): they divert from any righteous work. They will use only a little truth (repeat a scripture) in order to introduce a lie. We only need to look at Eve in the garden, and Jesus when the Holy Spirit took him to the desert to be tempted of satan. The tactics are the same.

Now this: the Church is perfect, pure, and holy before the Lord; even as the Lord Jesus is perfect, pure and holy. For the Lord does not see us as we are; He sees us as His Bride, chaste and unblemished before Him. What is lacking in the Church is that we do not look past the veil of flesh, to see to each other as we ought.
But the "denominations" like to carry their own names: so they put the NAME of Jesus in a secondary place: just as they put their own righteousness before the Lord's righteousness!
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

They are teachers of "works" and will be judged by their "works"
 
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
They are teachers of "works" and will be judged by their "works"
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You remind me of my hindu friend: his second language is English. He read the scripture: "Be careful for nothing." And he cried out, "Ju sea, Brooder, even four notting must we be careful!" (I'm trying to imitate his accent: bad job, sorry)

Beloved, look at the scripture: They are men who have despised the words of the apostle Paul: he called those men
(1)
false apostles (they were not sent by the Lord Jesus);
(2) deceitful workers (they work to deceive, and lied about their calling);
(3) transforming themselves (assuming the appearance of apostles, ministers of Christ);
(4) they are ministers of satan (they work for their master, satan);
(5) whose end is their works (they will reap what they sow);
(6) "...satan himself is transformed into an angel of light...": satan transforms himself: promises wisdom to his ministers:
But instead, he shows them to be subtle: "Hast God said...?" Planting doubt, and reaping unbelief in those who woud believe.

The first things false teachers want to do is:
discard
the Gospel: ignore it, or ridicule it as non-essential for good men;
change the Gospel: use definitions to tweak it here and there, to mean something else;
declare another Gospel: another "good news" whereby we may be saved.

Three things false teachers/ministers have in common:
1)
their own prophet: members must submit to the prophet's message;
2) their own book and interpretation of scripture: they use that to prove the validity of the Bible;
3) their own organization: members are subject to the denom's rules; no one can "minister" or even "pray" for another member/soul without their approval.
4) lay people witness about their church/organization, and about Jesus last.

Beloved, Walk in the Light.
 
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(1) You are quite correct: "...they went breaking bread from house to house...ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."
But there's a big difference between the Mormons, JW's, those who preach predestination and saved by faith through Grace,
and myself: they are all over the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation (and many of those scriptures are right on) "proving" their doctrine; I begin and remain at the core of the Gospel. You see, "their" doctrine must correspond with my Gospel!

(2) Again you are correct: but your response was negative, as if I was teaching a works salvation. But you and a couple of others on this forum do that: making yourselves seem more righteous.

(3) You are again using OT to justify the NT. Jesus was fullfilling the Law by obeying it and by doing and preaching what the Law actually does: being a "...type and shadow..." of things to come. The "washings" in the OT are types of today's baptism.
The difference is, today we need only to be baptized once: "...one Lord, one faith, one baptism...". Some will say that it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that sounds right. However, we receive the Holy Spirit, and are baptized into Christ.
Now, John's baptism was righteous, but we have a greater baptism than John's. His baptism was two-fold: it was because of repentance; and to receive the sign of God of Who was the Messiah. The following day after baptizing Jesus, John proclaimed:
"Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." We baptize for the remission of sins, and we proclaim that the
Lord is coming again!

(4) You "don't reject" water baptism for someone who wants it: but do you preach baptism, or believe you need it? No?
Then of course you reject baptism! What is the testimony of the Church in Acts? "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized...". That, Beloved, is the pattern expressed in the New Testament Church; but not by itself, it is preceded by repentance, and followed by the Spirit that will resurrect the believer from the dead.

(5) Again you are correct: we were all sinners. I also believe Matt. 5:17-18 _ and believe that the Lord has accomplished all things: but we still await "...the redemption of our bodies...". I also believe this: "Whoso offers praise glorifies me; and whosoever shall direct his conversation aright, I will show the salvation of God."

Beloved, walk in His love

1. I am not sure what your point is with the Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons. If you think I am one, I am not. I do have the Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door a lot. I honestly don't know enough about their doctrines except from what they say. They were here this weekend in fact. I do know that they believe that works is part of salvation and that they believe someone can only hear God through the bible and not the Holy Spirit, so we focused on those things. They used to argue a lot, but now they mostly listen and ask to come back. I ask all who read this to pray for them because they are beautiful people and God has given me a great love for them and I can see the Holy Spirit working with them.

2. Mario I do want to give you an apology for the way I spoke to you about your experience with the bird. Although I was making a point, I could have done it in a more caring way. I am sorry I didn't speak about it kindly to you, since I can see that my post does say my opinion in a rather harsh manner.

However, I do not believe I have any self righteousness. The only righteousness I have is from Jesus Christ my savior.

3. The washings in the Old Testament are types of today's baptism, but of the inner true water baptism from the Holy Spirit.

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them" (John 7:38).

4. Mario, there are many that go through a ceremony and never are saved, they never have the inner true baptism with God's living waters, so an outer baptism is meaningless, unless from a sincere heart that has real faith.

Be Blessed, Olivia
 
1. I am not sure what your point is with the Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons. If you think I am one, I am not. I do have the Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door a lot. I honestly don't know enough about their doctrines except from what they say. They were here this weekend in fact. I do know that they believe that works is part of salvation and that they believe someone can only hear God through the bible and not the Holy Spirit, so we focused on those things. They used to argue a lot, but now they mostly listen and ask to come back. I ask all who read this to pray for them because they are beautiful people and God has given me a great love for them and I can see the Holy Spirit working with them.
2. Mario I do want to give you an apology for the way I spoke to you about your experience with the bird. Although I was making a point, I could have done it in a more caring way. I am sorry I didn't speak about it kindly to you, since I can see that my post does say my opinion in a rather harsh manner.
However, I do not believe I have any self righteousness. The only righteousness I have is from Jesus Christ my savior.
3. The washings in the Old Testament are types of today's baptism, but of the inner true water baptism from the Holy Spirit.
"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them" (John 7:38).
4. Mario, there are many that go through a ceremony and never are saved, they never have the inner true baptism with God's living waters, so an outer baptism is meaningless, unless from a sincere heart that has real faith.
Be Blessed, Olivia
_______________________________________________

Beloved,
1)
I said JW's and Mormons quote scripture from Genesis to Revelations without knowing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, although mentioning "gospel" several times. Whether they are beautiful people, I will not disagree. But only the Gospel can save them;
2) No apology needed: I know that some of my experiences are hard; but they are, nevertheless, true. The Lord knows, and I believe my testimony verifies, that I do not condone animal sacrifice;
3) I'm glad you agree with the OT washings: now, baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit are two separate things;
4) Beloved, baptism is not a ceremony...well, maybe to you and others who do not believe in water baptism. I also realize that there are some denominations that believe in water baptism, but have denied the reality of the Holy Spirit: they believe they receive the Holy Spirit "by faith", but not in reality. Nevertheless, water baptism is very clear in the scriptures, especially in the testimony of the Primitive Church. To not believe, or reject, water baptism as part of the Gospel, one would have to deny the testimony of the Lord Jesus, the apostles, the Church, and the Holy Spirit.
It is not my place to judge those who have received, or not, the Holy Spirit; regardless of whether or not they are baptized in water. That judgment can only come from the Lord Jesus, who knows the hearts of man.

Beloved, walk in the Truth.
 
_______________________________________________

Beloved,
1)
I said JW's and Mormons quote scripture from Genesis to Revelations without knowing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, although mentioning "gospel" several times. Whether they are beautiful people, I will not disagree. But only the Gospel can save them;
2) No apology needed: I know that some of my experiences are hard; but they are, nevertheless, true. The Lord knows, and I believe my testimony verifies, that I do not condone animal sacrifice;
3) I'm glad you agree with the OT washings: now, baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit are two separate things;
4) Beloved, baptism is not a ceremony...well, maybe to you and others who do not believe in water baptism. I also realize that there are some denominations that believe in water baptism, but have denied the reality of the Holy Spirit: they believe they receive the Holy Spirit "by faith", but not in reality. Nevertheless, water baptism is very clear in the scriptures, especially in the testimony of the Primitive Church. To not believe, or reject, water baptism as part of the Gospel, one would have to deny the testimony of the Lord Jesus, the apostles, the Church, and the Holy Spirit.
It is not my place to judge those who have received, or not, the Holy Spirit; regardless of whether or not they are baptized in water. That judgment can only come from the Lord Jesus, who knows the hearts of man.

Beloved, walk in the Truth.
First of all stop saying that I don't believe in water baptism. If you read my posts you will see that is not true. I don't believe outward water baptism is necessary for salvation.

2nd I will repeat this since I keep repeating things to you and you keep denying what I say. I believe the true water baptism is the washing by the Holy Spirit. I will give you the scripture a third time since you keep ignoring it.

Titus 3:5 talks about this as salvation, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them" (John 7:38).

I also will ask you a third time because you keep ignoring this question, are the people in the two following scriptures saved even though they haven't had an outward water baptism?

"1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home" (Matthew 9:1-9:6).


48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace (Luke 7:48-50).

Are you going to answer my question this time or divert from it again. Are these two people saved. Jesus said their sins are forgiven. I believe they had the inward washing of the Holy Spirit and are saved, even though they did not have an outward water baptism. What about you? Are they saved?
 
First of all stop saying that I don't believe in water baptism. If you read my posts you will see that is not true. I don't believe outward water baptism is necessary for salvation.
2nd I will repeat this since I keep repeating things to you and you keep denying what I say. I believe the true water baptism is the washing by the Holy Spirit. I will give you the scripture a third time s:ince you keep ignoring it.
Titus 3:5 talks about this as salvation, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them" (John 7:38).
I also will ask you a third time because you keep ignoring this question, are the people in the two following scriptures saved even though they haven't had an outward water baptism?
"1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home" (Matthew 9:1-9:6).
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace (Luke 7:48-50).
Are you going to answer my question this time or divert from it again. Are these two people saved. Jesus said their sins are forgiven. I believe they had the inward washing of the Holy Spirit and are saved, even though they did not have an outward water baptism. What about you? Are they saved?
_____________________________________________________

Beloved,
1) You said that you don't believe in water baptism: this time you said it was "outward" water baptism. The "inner" baptism you seem to believe is inner baptism by the word: is that it?
2) receiving the Holy Spirit is separate from water baptism: you need to read the scriptures I provided: "Except a man be born of teh water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus said, "The words I speak unto you, thy are Spirit ad they are life." So you believe that a man must be born of the Spirit and of the Spirit to enter God's kingdom?
The "...rivers of living water..." refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit: which benefits the hearer of the Gospel.
3) I am not intentionally ignoring your comments: I didn't know they're so important to you. Sit down, cause here goes:
Both people were saved according to the Law, even as the thief on the cross. They were not "saved" under the New Testament because Jesus was still fulfilling the Law, etc., etc., etc. Now, since they lived under the Law, and the Holy Spirit "...was not yet given...", what makes you think the Holy Spirit indwelt in them? Who told you?
Now let me ask you: Do you believe that they, the two subjects in Matt. 9:9-6, and Lk. 7:48-50 _ would reject the Gospel that the Apostle Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost...if they were present? "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized...". Granted, I don't think that everyone that heard the word believed.

Beloved, Walk in the Truth.
 
_________________________________________________________

You remind me of my hindu friend: his second language is English. He read the scripture: "Be careful for nothing." And he cried out, "Ju sea, Brooder, even four notting must we be careful!" (I'm trying to imitate his accent: bad job, sorry)

Beloved, look at the scripture: They are men who have despised the words of the apostle Paul: he called those men
(1)
false apostles (they were not sent by the Lord Jesus);
(2) deceitful workers (they work to deceive, and lied about their calling);
(3) transforming themselves (assuming the appearance of apostles, ministers of Christ);
(4) they are ministers of satan (they work for their master, satan);
(5) whose end is their works (they will reap what they sow);
(6) "...satan himself is transformed into an angel of light...": satan transforms himself: promises wisdom to his ministers:
But instead, he shows them to be subtle: "Hast God said...?" Planting doubt, and reaping unbelief in those who woud believe.

The first things false teachers want to do is:
discard
the Gospel: ignore it, or ridicule it as non-essential for good men;
change the Gospel: use definitions to tweak it here and there, to mean something else;
declare another Gospel: another "good news" whereby we may be saved.

Three things false teachers/ministers have in common:
1)
their own prophet: members must submit to the prophet's message;
2) their own book and interpretation of scripture: they use that to prove the validity of the Bible;
3) their own organization: members are subject to the denom's rules; no one can "minister" or even "pray" for another member/soul without their approval.
4) lay people witness about their church/organization, and about Jesus last.

Beloved, Walk in the Light.
Not sure Mr villa how that relates to the points I made? And not sure why I would remind you of a "hindu" who can not speak English?:confused:
 
Not sure Mr villa how that relates to the points I made? And not sure why I would remind you of a "hindu" who can not speak English?:confused:
__________________________________________________

Oh, he spoke English: it's just that he spoke English while thinking in Hindi. Do you speak a second language: I do and sometimes I need to "interpret" what I want to say into Spanish, before I say anything.
 
__________________________________________________

Oh, he spoke English: it's just that he spoke English while thinking in Hindi. Do you speak a second language: I do and sometimes I need to "interpret" what I want to say into Spanish, before I say anything.
Oh I see? I speak in English but am thinking in the Holy Spirit, thanks for that compliment:D
 
Uh oh... I think this is what Paige was talking about lol. :)

It's really simple. Read your Bible, ask for truth...Right guys?

Never once has that failed me.
 
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