Macarthur's Understanding Of The Holy Spirit

[Barnabas]

Stepping over into implying a conspiracy by the leaders is far past having a problem with their theology and seems a rather unnecessarily defamatory when based on deductive conjecture rather than some sort of proof.

How can it not be a "conspiracy"? IN the the pokey video, everything done is calculated for the desired charismatic effect. Can they not heal in a traditional service? No instrumental music, except maybe a piano. No silly songs, but only reverent songs? No talking over the music. No demonstration of tongues (gibberish at about the the 3-minute mark). No prior screening before handing people the mic.

In the hokey pokey video, everyone "healed" is healed of pain, which can go away just from adrenalin. While the airheads don't notice it, anyone keeping track will notice that there aren't blind people being healed. That there aren't wheelchair-bound people being healed. But, the leaders are keeping track. They know the next time they meet these "healed" people that these people will report that their pain has returned. But, these individuals will just think it's just themselves who weren't healed, and that the others were healed. The leaders will know that none of them were healed.

 

[DavidG]

How can it not be a "conspiracy"? IN the the pokey video, everything done is calculated for the desired charismatic effect. Can they not heal in a traditional service? No instrumental music, except maybe a piano. No silly songs, but only reverent songs? No talking over the music. No demonstration of tongues (gibberish at about the the 3-minute mark). No prior screening before handing people the mic.

In the hokey pokey video, everyone "healed" is healed of pain, which can go away just from adrenalin. While the airheads don't notice it, anyone keeping track will notice that there aren't blind people being healed. That there aren't wheelchair-bound people being healed. But, the leaders are keeping track. They know the next time they meet these "healed" people that these people will report that their pain has returned. But, these individuals will just think it's just themselves who weren't healed, and that the others were healed. The leaders will know that none of them were healed.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I had thought that the implication was that there was some sort of universal con that charismatic leaders were complicit in executing.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Perhaps I misunderstood. I had thought that the implication was that there was some sort of universal con that charismatic leaders were complicit in executing.

If I may interject, I believe there is ,...con men know they are con men, ...just as to how much they know about their involvement won't be known until later.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 1 Co 11:13-15

Blessings,

Gene

 

[DavidG]

If I may interject, I believe there is ,...con men know they are con men, ...just as to how much they know about their involvement won't be known until later.

I'll give you con men know they are con men, but how do we know they are? Before we can get to the "con knows he's a con" step of the argument it seems like we would have to establish that they are cons in the first place for it to apply. My experience working across the evangelical spectrum hasn't shown an obvious difference in fruit. The fruitfulness of charismatic and non-charismatic ministries seem comparable as does the fruit of sanctification in the lives of volunteers from both sides. Outside of my experience reports of corruption seem to be able to be matched atrocity for atrocity ad nauseum. Why should I believe that people who seem earnest, preach and live the gospel, and bear fruit in keeping with the sanctification of the Holy Spirit are con artists?

I can see how you would tie the context of 2 Cor 11:13-15 to men who have claimed apostolic authority, but while there are those who have done that, I don't see that kind of power mongering as ubiquitous or even common among the charismatic movement.

 

[Silk]

Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, John Crowder, Osteen, Copeland, Kuhlman??

 

[DavidG]

...I don't quite follow, Silk. Are you asking what I think of these people?

 

[Silk]

...I don't quite follow, Silk. Are you asking what I think of these people?

You said you saw the fruit from both sides, across the spectrum - you don't see any errors which are opposed to the Word with these preachers?

 

[TezriLi]

Say. Writing of such things, does anyone know where the term heebie-jeebies came from? I tried to find out one time but was unsuccessful. I am very suspicious of it for unknown reasons, but when I learned that its first public uses were in the 1920s, I became suspicious again, because of what was going on in L.A. at that time. Anyone know? Anyone find any apparent evidence of its true origin?

Is anyone else suspicious of this term, with regard to this subject? I just wrote a question on a site about it, using a pseudonym. If I get anything looking like truth, I will say so.

 

[Silk]

Is anyone else suspicious of this term, with regard to this subject? I just wrote a question on a site about it, using a pseudonym. If I get anything looking like truth, I will say so.

I meant to ask - what were you referring to about what was occurring in LA in the 20's?

 

[TezriLi]

In the United States, there was a resurgence of an earlier move people said was the H. Spirit in L.A., when a preacher was invited to a Nazarene church there. They made him leave, refusing what he taught, but the movement spread for years, going from L.A., north and east across the States. It also spread to other continents and remains very active on parts of the continent of Africa. This was the beginning of many Pentecostal churches, which had much to do with the later Charismatic movement.

 

[DavidG]

You said you saw the fruit from both sides, across the spectrum - you don't see any errors which are opposed to the Word with these preachers?

I'm sorry, Silk, I may be dense, but I think I'm still missing you. How does the second part of the phrase follow form the first? How would bad theology from Benny Hinn invalidate fruit from charismatic churches any more than bad theology from Fred Phelps invalidates fruit from Baptists?

 

[Silk]

I'm sorry, Silk, I may be dense, but I think I'm still missing you. How does the second part of the phrase follow form the first? How would bad theology from Benny Hinn invalidate fruit from charismatic churches any more than bad theology from Fred Phelps invalidates fruit from Baptists?

I didn't know who Fred Phelps was - this one? The unaffiliated "primitive Baptist" who was considered fringe, who didn't have millions of followers? I would say he did considerable damage and gave no glory to God. I could name considerably more charasmatics and I never heard of them until maybe a month or two ago. I would say they are doing considerably more damage to the church than Phelps.

 

[DavidG]

...mmm I almost jumped right in to trying to compare apples to apples(or bad apples to bad apples and then thought better of it and erased my post. If you would really like to plumb the depths of the worldwide impact of Fred and Wesboro Baptist Church we can do that in another thread.

I won't bite on the comparison game because I'm still not convinced the comparative evil of faction celebrities are a valid way to judge the entire movement. From where I sit I see unsung joe charismatic feeding the poor, sheltering widows and orphans, giving the glory to God, spreading the gospel and reaping a harvest often hand-in-hand with evangelical groups that will work with them. I don't see how a game of "who has the most nefarious celebrities" negates that. Add to this the hard working non-charismatics that work with them in the field most often have nothing but good things to say (again in my personal experience). I'm reminded of Spurgeon speaking about John Wesley:

"Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him, that while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself, I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitfield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God"​

 

[Osterloh]

@Osterloh So - what 6 mins. did you watch?

I watched the first 6+ minutes.
I used to believe Johnny was an excellent teacher of the word.
But, all of a sudden, he seemed to become demonized - lol
against the charismatic use of the spiritual gifts!
IMO, how he had changed (REALLY come out of the closet) was blatantly obvious.
Big thing to remember is ...
No one has all of their ducks lined up in a perfect row.
No one's doctrinal beliefs are right-on!
His surely are not.

WARNING to all of the nay-sayers, who have been taught cessationism
by their churches who also do not have any of these spiritual power gifts ...
spiritual Truths do NOT have to be reflected in Christians' lives!
Christians are human beings with a sin nature and free will.
They have a soul (mind, will and emotions)!
They are subject to error.
Nothing to do with God's spiritual Truths!

Post #29 explains why the churches have been ignorant about this for many centuries!
But just perhaps the most obvious reason should be ...
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
“there is no truth in him ... he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks
about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Yes, Satan wasn't too jazzed about all of the spiritual power the NT church had.
With it, Christians have NO problem evangelizing and winning the lost.
"I gotta put a stop to this!", he said.
And God refused to mess with man's free will, i.e. the church leaders.

 

[Osterloh]

No doubt there are naive ones there, but the power of suggestion is strong,
I have talked with people that have resisted the hypnosis of slain in the spirit,
only to go back another time and succumb.

Gene, I was particularly drawn to this post of yours.

Being slain in the Spirit does NOT have to be the result of some type of hypnosis!
Being slain in the Spirit does NOT have to be the result of someone's emotions!
Since NT times, it has been done by the Holy Spirit.

One who has really been slain by the Spirit KNOWS it was He who did it,
and knows it was NOT any result of his/her emotions, or hypnotism lol.

I have been not too gently pushed over backwards by NO ONE other than the Holy Spirit.
Not by any human, and not my emotions!

Or, dost thou choose to believe that God is not alive and well on planet earth?
Or, dost thou choose to believe that God is not allowed to do whatever He wishes to do?

 

[Barnabas]

I'll give you con men know they are con men, but how do we know they are? Before we can get to the "con knows he's a con" step of the argument it seems like we would have to establish that they are cons in the first place for it to apply. My experience working across the evangelical spectrum hasn't shown an obvious difference in fruit. The fruitfulness of charismatic and non-charismatic ministries seem comparable as does the fruit of sanctification in the lives of volunteers from both sides. Outside of my experience reports of corruption seem to be able to be matched atrocity for atrocity ad nauseum. Why should I believe that people who seem earnest, preach and live the gospel, and bear fruit in keeping with the sanctification of the Holy Spirit are con artists?

You don't pull of a polished magic show while ignorant of the strings and mirrors. They know they are con-men.

As for fruitfulness, how do you measure that? By growth? Then give props to successful cults, Islam, and the Democrat party. I don't think its any coincidence that the decline of the western Church has been accompanies by such things as the rise in pentecostalism, megachurches, and dispensationalism. These things appeal to the flesh and poison the soul.

Pentecostalism, especially the extreme brands like Benny Hinn, harms the credibility of Christians. It's hard to reach a lost world when they rightly see you as a nut. We have a young man here who recently started a thread calling God a liar because Christians are hurt when they drink poison, etc. When you have no credibility, you lose your ability to influence the culture.

Pentecostalism teaches people to focus on themselves and care about God only so far as asking what God can do for them. A self-focused person has no desire to influence the culture.

Pentecostalism makes people sucker the false doctrines of Pentecostal con-men. So, we see the rise of destructive blasphemies like Dispensationalism (a doctrine marked by the expectation of imminent eschatological fireworks, appealing to the self-centeredness of the Pentecostal).

So, now, we have same-sex marriage and in "the land of the free" he wave Christians being hauled off to court for not wanting to make homosexual wedding cakes. That's the fruit of these con-men.

 

[Major]

Thoughts? ... Difficult when I have goosebumps everywhere and my hair is standing on end.
I only got as far as the 6+ minute mark!

My testimony to you is that the following is for today, i.e. the Lord NEVER put an end to it.
The end was put to it by none other than Satan and the early mega churches (EOC and RCC).
Why? The churches wanted all the power and control for themselves! Guaranteed truth.

1 Corinthians 12:
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed,
and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits,
to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

These are the 9 spiritual power gifts.

Note: this gift of faith has absolutely nothing to do with being born-again.
This gift is extraordinarily powerful, necessary to evangelize in incredibly dangerous places, etc.

One reason MacArthur is against these gifts for today is because he has none of them.
And also, he must be terribly deceived to be so blatantly against them.

I disagree adamantly!

John MacArthur is one of todays' best Bible teachers and commentators......Period! He is not against them as much as he is simply telling all of us that they are no longer valid. Actually he is telling us nothing that is new. Some of us have been saying the same things as he is saying but we have been doing it now for decades.

The sign gifts are no longer valid!

I become weary when people that do not have the same education and ability as others and always seek to lower the perspective and ability of those that do.

 

[Major]

It's all tied up in hypnotism, they hypnotized these people, and here's how they did it,

1. a steady beat from the drum on the first and fourth notes (a study of drumbeats in modern music is fascinating as to how rock bands can control the audience).
2. the bass guitar playing a low note softly on the first, second and fourth note and strong of the third note.
3. the speaker set the audience up at the very beginning by suggesting what they would do.
4. everything going very slow, soft and melodic all to set the mood and prepare the people
5. at 1:35 he spoke unintelligibly and very quickly which was equivalent to the finger snap in the old days.
6. the audience was hypnotized and responded to the suggestion that was presented at the beginning,

The reason it happened so quickly is the audience came there looking for and expecting the experience, he set the hook in telling how many healings took place in another session.

That's an altered state of consciousness, ...not the Holy Spirit of the Word.

Blessings,

Gene

Absolutely correct Gene. It is the "power of suggestion" in action.

It happens not only in church but also business meetings, power enhancement seminars, sport teams and personal motivators.

 

[Major]

You don't pull of a polished magic show while ignorant of the strings and mirrors. They know they are con-men.

As for fruitfulness, how do you measure that? By growth? Then give props to successful cults, Islam, and the Democrat party. I don't think its any coincidence that the decline of the western Church has been accompanies by such things as the rise in pentecostalism, megachurches, and dispensationalism. These things appeal to the flesh and poison the soul.

Pentecostalism, especially the extreme brands like Benny Hinn, harms the credibility of Christians. It's hard to reach a lost world when they rightly see you as a nut. We have a young man here who recently started a thread calling God a liar because Christians are hurt when they drink poison, etc. When you have no credibility, you lose your ability to influence the culture.

Pentecostalism teaches people to focus on themselves and care about God only so far as asking what God can do for them. A self-focused person has no desire to influence the culture.

Pentecostalism makes people sucker the false doctrines of Pentecostal con-men. So, we see the rise of destructive blasphemies like Dispensationalism (a doctrine marked by the expectation of imminent eschatological fireworks, appealing to the self-centeredness of the Pentecostal).

So, now, we have same-sex marriage and in "the land of the free" he wave Christians being hauled off to court for not wanting to make homosexual wedding cakes. That's the fruit of these con-men.

I agree with almost everything you said. I would argue about "Dispensationism". Almost every single person I know who has rejected it, did not know what it really was all about.

 

[Major]

Gene, I was particularly drawn to this post of yours.

Being slain in the Spirit does NOT have to be the result of some type of hypnosis!
Being slain in the Spirit does NOT have to be the result of someone's emotions!
Since NT times, it has been done by the Holy Spirit.

One who has really been slain by the Spirit KNOWS it was He who did it,
and knows it was NOT any result of his/her emotions, or hypnotism lol.

I have been not too gently pushed over backwards by NO ONE other than the Holy Spirit.
Not by any human, and not my emotions!

Or, dost thou choose to believe that God is not alive and well on planet earth?
Or, dost thou choose to believe that God is not allowed to do whatever He wishes to do?

Please post the Bible quote that explains and condones "slain in the Spirit".