More Harm Than Good.

Dirtyrottensinner said:
Don't "believers" come from the pool of "unbelievers"? Why do we over complicate scripture?

We are ALL born into a sinful fallen world, not righteousness. We ALL have the same opportunity to seek Him.
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You are absolutely correct DRS!

Romans 3:23.......
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Romans 5:6..........
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time, Christ died for the ungodly".

God has a plan and He has appointed times and seasons for all the things associated with that plan.
Notice the verse above....."IN DUE TIME".

Remember Acts 1:4 when Jesus told the disciples, "But wait.......".

In Luke 24:49 Jesus said............................................"But tarry......".

Does that not indicate that there is a program of God waiting on "God's Time".

Now..........why wait??? Why would the Master tell them to wait? "DUE TIME".

Luke 24:49...........
"And behold I send the promise of my Father upon you but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until ye be ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH".

The disciples had not yet received the filling of the Holy Spirit. "DUE TIME". God has a plan and He is working that plan.

It was after the Holy Spirit came that the men were given power to preach, and travel and spread the gospel.
 
Rusty said:
I don't see anyone questioning God, certainly not through this forums membership. But I do see folks asking important questions, Donato.
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Rusty said:

No one on this thread is suggestion "everybody gets saved", but are asking about predestination, a very different subject.

So what do you make of this verse from the mouth of the Lord? He wants us to ask Him, or not?



Note God uses the "reason together" idea, not the "I'm God shut up and stop asking questions" theory.

The Hebrew word for "reason together" is :



Oh and by the way: Job questioned and God answered and re-blessed him more than ever before.
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Apologies, my oversight entirely. I thought the question was; “Does 'predestination' include all people, or just a few individuals God hand-picks out of the crowd?” and that was the question. To which Scripture answers; "Only some, and for His good purpose and pleasure before the beginning of time."

Anticipating the next question; “Why does God predestine some and not all?”, my reply would be; “For His good purpose and pleasure”, beyond that my context was; “Who are we to ask intimate questions of God?”; (e.g. “What are your good purpose and pleasures God, tell me?”), and "Like the example of Job, if God told us His most intimate purpose and pleasures, we probably wouldn't understand anyway because we don't have the infinite mind of God.”. Blessing are beside the point.

Now the question is; “No one on this thread is suggestion "everybody gets saved", but are asking about predestination, a very different subject.”

Now I’m understanding this in the context of “what is Predestination”? I think I answered, “Who” and “Why”, so now I’m thinking the question is “What”?

Actually the word "Predestination" (Ephesians 1 5, Romans, Matthew, Mark, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Peter) doesn't appear in the scriptures, it's our own English word derived from the Greek; “pro orizo”; To predetermine, decide beforehand, and the context of the Scriptures is, “Ones ultimate Destiny”.

So the context of the word Predestination in Scripture is; “To predetermine ones ultimate Destiny”.

(I hope we can agree from our experience that not all choose God, so not all are saved, and put that to rest.)

Now there are 2 major views on Predestination, Man chooses God (Prescience View), or God chooses Man (Augustinian View). There are other views but basically variations in these same two categories.

The Prescience View goes something like this; God in His foreknowledge predestine those who He knew would receive the Gospel, and gave them eternal life.

Here Man choose God based on one Man being; smarter, holier, more righteous, greater, is it based on color, nationality, genealogy, etc., than another Man? What is God’s criteria in this context?

You can see how this View can lead to many atrocities and it has. You can see how this View creates a problem with the Scriptures and underestimates the importance of God and overestimates the importance of Man. The Prescience View exalts Man above God and puts Man in a place where he can boast in his salvation as being something he determined, something where he is better than another Man, despite God.

The Prescience View doesn’t define predestination, but it actually denies predestination.

The Augustinian View goes something like this; God decided before the creation of the world, who would be predestined to eternal life, and that predestination is regardless of anything we do or who we are.

Here God chooses Man, not based on who that Man is or what that Man does, but God’s Will. The Augustinian View exalts God above Man and puts Man in a place where he is humble and cannot boast in his salvation because it was entirely a gift from God. (Ephesians 2 8)

Now “MANY” hold on to the Prescience View (or variations of), and it’s a popular View because Man loves his sin. Man wants so hard to believe there was something good in him that he can boast in his salvation apart from God. If you think about it from the Kingdom forward, the Prescience View actually makes God subservient and exalts Man because Man defined the Kingdom and Man determined who is in the Kingdom. Oh how arrogant and ignorant Man is in his sin.


Anyway I hope this answers the question, if not please be more specific. Those who know Bible basics, know which View is the correct View. I could get in to the “Golden Chain” which I think decides the matter once and for all but that would make for a much longer read to an already long read.

Now does your salvation depend on which View you believe? Personally I would say it depends, God says in His Word; “To whom much was given, of him much will be required” (Luke 12 48).

If you are in a remote area of the world and your tribe only has one Bible that’s shared with everyone else, you may not be required to know all the finer points of the Scriptures for your salvation.

However if you have a computer that’s has access to the Internet there is no reason in the world, not to know everything that is in the Scriptures in addition to the history, culture, language, and geography.

On that day in Judgment when we are before the Lord, how is it we say we spent our time when He says He doesn’t know us because we didn’t know Him when He has given us so much?
 
Election always concerns the saved and never the lost.

God's will is that all men be saved BUT because He gives man freedom of choice, ALL men will not be saved.

ALL men "can" be but ALL will not be. That has nothing to do with God picking some to be saved. That has to do with the Foreknowledge of God and Him knowing the future in advance.
 
Major said:
Election always concerns the saved and never the lost.

God's will is that all men be saved BUT because He gives man freedom of choice, ALL men will not be saved.

ALL men "can" be but ALL will not be. That has nothing to do with God picking some to be saved. That has to do with the Foreknowledge of God and Him knowing the future in advance.
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It is true that God would want all Men saved, but without the direct intervention of His divine grace, there is a chance no Men would be saved, and the death of Christ would be in vain. Do you think God would leave the choice to choose God up to sinful Man?

No, God guarantees through His divine grace that some will be saved.

Consider Romans 3;

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” (Romans 3 10 12)

Men left to himself will only choose sin. Man's motives will always be sinful. Man has free will to choose one sin or another sin, but the unsaved Man cannot choose God's Righteousness.

Free Will is an illusion. We think we are free to choose but in reality we choose our strongest inclination. (e.g. I'm going to lunch because I am hungry). There are always pre-determining motives behind our decisions.

If a Man does indeed freely choose in a spontaneous and capricious manor, a choice without a motive, an effect without a cause, that Man is said to be insane, mental instructions are full of free Men.

Now the difference between the saved and the dammed, consider ;

Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9 13)

God has everything to do with it. God predetermined before the beginning of the world, those He would have mercy on and those He would not.

Why some and not others? For His good purpose and pleasure! We know from the Scriptures that God is good and His purpose always works toward His goodness.

So whatever God does, always works towards His goodness and His Glory! Amen!

What is shocking isn't that God saves only some, what is truly shocking is that God saves anyone at all. We have all sinned, and God in His divine justice isn't obligated to save anyone at all. And He would be perfectly just in doing so.

God gives His grace to only some and those who have His divine grace can now choose Righteousness over sin. Do you see the meaning in; "The Truth will set you free", the saved are no longer a slave to sin and can now choose Righteousness over sin.

However because we have free will, sometimes a Christian will choose sin over Righteousness because at that time and place the strongest inclination is to sin.

Last I'd like to touch on the Limited Atonement of Christ. Christ died to save only the predestine from their sin. If Lord Jesus Atoned for the sins of all Men, than what are those in hell being punished for?
 
In replies I'd ask that you be respectful to the Scriptures. Don't just cut-and-paste verses that contradict other verses of Scripture. I feel that in reality it turns off people from studying the Scriptures because instead of seeing a book of 66 books that tell a contiguous story from Genesis to Revelation. They just see a bunch of contradictory nonsense.

I am 100% positive there is nothing in the Scriptures that is contradictory. There are explanations for everything. If the Bible were contradictory on key doctrines, the Scriptures would have perished in the hands of its critics a long, long time ago.

If you find something that truly appears to be contradictory (and you will not), I'd ask that you would understand the full context a chapter before and a chapter after. I'd also look to other places in the Scriptures where there is the same context and understand that as well.

Thank You.
 
Donato said:
In replies I'd ask that you be respectful to the Scriptures. Don't just cut-and-paste verses that contradict other verses of Scripture. I feel that in reality it turns off people from studying the Scriptures because instead of seeing a book of 66 books that tell a contiguous story from Genesis to Revelation. They just see a bunch of contradictory nonsense.

I am 100% positive there is nothing in the Scriptures that is contradictory. There are explanations for everything. If the Bible were contradictory on key doctrines, the Scriptures would have perished in the hands of its critics a long, long time ago.

If you find something that truly appears to be contradictory (and you will not), I'd ask that you would understand the full context a chapter before and a chapter after. I'd also look to other places in the Scriptures where there is the same context and understand that as well.

Thank You.
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Welcome Donato to the site and I hope that we will be able to stay and communicate on a Christian level BUT...........
First off I must tell you that to issue a challenge to those who are here to not post Scriptures as a basis for the truth that they understand is not a good start.

I for one do not believe the Scriptures contridict one another but I will always use them and post them as the basis of truth.

Now......as I have stated, election/predestination and adobtion should only be taught to spiritually minded believers and never to a mixed group of un-believers like we have here on an open forum. It is an invitation to disaster and confusion when anyone says that "God predetermines who will go to hell".

To a lost person that reads that, the next thing in his mind is anger....depression.

MY encouragement is to move on to something else because this topic is one that needs to be discussed by those who are born again.
 
To what I was referring with the "verse-chasers" is people who really don't care about context or Truth but just want to argue. If you want to argue, than prove you understand the context. READ Your BIBLE!

Those who care about the Truth will read, the others will move on and argue with someone else.


I agree, the doctrine of predestination is arguably the most hated doctrine of scripture, but who are we to be selective in the teaching of Gods Word? I didn't start the topic but the question was asked, so I answered.

Jesus in taught the 5,000. In reality, including women and children, it was probably more like 15-20 thousand. When Jesus rebuked them for seeking Him only for food, and taught the "hard sayings", they all left grumbling and only the 12 were left.

Out of 15-20 thousand people they all went away grumbling and only the 12 were left!

Jesus didn't go chasing them saying; "Wait a second guys, I really didn't mean that, come back, come back, I won't talk about that anymore, come back here is some more food!", but latter we do know Jesus wept because no one in Jerusalem would receive His Word.

When Steven was being stoned by a mob of angry Jews he didn't say; "Ok now, put them stones down, I take it all back, I didn't mean a word of it".

Just imagine if we had those examples in the Scriptures.

My whole point of this thread was the Gospel is offensive, it divides, it softens the hearts of the Just, and hardens the hearts of the Unjust, that's its intent, that is what the Gospel is suppose to do.

Watering down the Gospel to a "hearer friendly", message does no one any good and I believe in the eyes of God, it shows a weak unbelieving messenger.

Those who have ears to here, let them here, the Word of God does not go out and come back void. It softens the hearts of the Just, and hardens the hearts of the Unjust. We don't know who is who so the Gospel must be preached all.

He who has ears to hear let him HEAR, the rest I truly weep for you.
 
I almost forgot, Luther considered the Doctrine of Predestination the "Core of Church". The many Saints who have gone before us, many times in horrific ways, drew their strength from this Doctrine. They could rejoice as the flesh melted from their bones to know they were "Chosen by God" in His eternal election. This Doctrine is central to Christian Faith.
 
There are 2 types of people and many subcategories:

1: Believers:
A: Those who have accepted the truth and are obedient
B: Those who have accepted the truth and are disobedient (through ignorance or choice)
C: Those who know the truth and CHOOSE to follow the opposite path.

2: Unbelievers:
A: Those who are ignorant (know not the Gospel)
B: Those who are willfully ignorant


These are the basic categories and can be divided into many different sub-sects as well. And in examining scripture, there are evidences that support my theorem stated above.

@ Donato: I see you favor the story of Stephen, my question to you is this -which type of people stoned Stephen?

Here's my thinking:

We fight 'spiritual wickedness in high places' (Ephesians 6:12); what 'higher place' is there than the house of God? (Do not confuse what I am saying here-I am not saying God's house is wicked) The humans (Scribes and Pharisees) had been corrupted, Mark 13:22, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9.

Thus the people who follow corrupt leadership are deceived. The Gospel-"TRUTH" is the remedy-the 'spell breaker' if you will. God still gives the people the choice to follow on an individual level. This is the danger of man-made religion: Matthew 19:7-8, John 6:22-26.

It is my opinion-PURE SPECULATION- that Stephen's death provided witness to Saul/ Paul of Christ and to those who saw Stephen die; it might have had a softening effect on the heart. God's full purpose is unknown to us.

Who was Saul following before the road to Damascus?
Who were the people (Jews) following the day Stephen was stoned?
Who were the Scribes & Pharisees following when they put Christ on the cross?

Our job as Christians is to reveal the TRUE Shepherd to the 'lost' sheep. If we are in the flock of Christ and setting the example-the sheep in 'Satan's pen' will want to turn (repent) and follow us to Christ. Will ALL be saved? NO. But is it God's desire for ALL to be saved? YES.

If all we do is 'preach' to one another; God's Word is made of no effect.
 
NOTE: I put "C: Those who know the truth and CHOOSE to follow the opposite path." under the wrong category-it should be under "Believers".

I think this thread would be better served if we explored the doctrine of 'Separation".
 
I see only three categories;

The Elect
The Elect who are Saved
The Non-Elect

You can be Elect and not Saved, but you can't be saved and not Elect. The Non-Elect simply don't and can't choose Righteousness, and I'd say that most don't even care. The Non-Elect are not among the sheep who hear His voice. The Non-Elect don't have ears to hear and are spiritually blinded so they will never become part of the Saved.

As for the Jews who stoned Steven, I'd say a mix of Elect and Non-Elect. We don't know who's who so the Gospel must be preached to every corner of the World.

Case and point; Paul was obviously among the Elect but not saved at the time of Steven execution. Paul didn't become Saved until Jesus revealed Himself to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Without the Elect, there is a chance that no one will choose God and the death of Christ would have been all-for-not.
 
Donato said:
I see only three categories;

The Elect
The Elect who are Saved
The Non-Elect

You can be Elect and not Saved, but you can't be saved and not Elect. The Non-Elect simply don't and can't choose Righteousness, and I'd say that most don't even care. The Non-Elect are not among the sheep who hear His voice. The Non-Elect don't have ears to hear and are spiritually blinded so they will never become part of the Saved.

As for the Jews who stoned Steven, I'd say a mix of Elect and Non-Elect. We don't know who's who so the Gospel must be preached to every corner of the World.

Case and point; Paul was obviously among the Elect but not saved at the time of Steven execution. Paul didn't become Saved until Jesus revealed Himself to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Without the Elect, there is a chance that no one will choose God and the death of Christ would have been all-for-not.
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Please don't take this the wrong way Donato- not trying to be hateful:

But this type of thinking is illogical when you research the scriptures and it produces an elitist mentality and defeats the purpose of Christ's commandment to preach the Word to 'ALL creatures'. I find that many 'unsaved' and 'cult' leaders use this doctrine to run their organizations the way they see fit-not God's way. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that 'many will be called and few will answer', that in 'that day...they will say Lord Lord... and I will say I do not know you' -JC.

1: Being 'elect' and "not saved" makes no sense.
2: We do not know the hearts of men-only God does.
3: I do believe it is possible to be saved if you do not hear the 'Gospel' directly if your heart is right.
4: Christ commanded us to A: love your neighbor (we could debate 'who is your neighbor' all day) AND B: to preach the Gospel and baptize all those who believe in Him in the Name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

We are not to be judges of the heart- I am incapable of making that condemnation, and so is every other human. I have to 'fight' with myself-'put away all malice'- in this area when dealing with others. I don't always win either-God forgive me...
 
Apologies on the the late reply, I usually spend all my free time in study and just decided to take a break and come here now. Also no offense taken, your argument isn't with me but with scripture, and the Fathers of the Faith, and you have your work cut out for you.

I guarantee all my points and scriptural references are fundamental to the Christian Faith. I would encourage everyone with a computer and access to the Internet to enroll in some seminary courses and study the "Doctrine of Election", and if you still disagree with the scriptures and Fathers of the Faith we can talk. One of my places of study is Ligonier Online founded by RC Sproul, it's an incredible resource to study the "Knowledge of God".

I'm finding it's improbable to construct the foundation of Election in a thread and I don't want to keep repeating the same scripture references and arguments over and over and over again. Things that are crystal clear to me, to others may be overlooked without some prior knowledge. Just the same it would be improbable to lay the foundation on how Lord Jesus is our perfect Priest from the order of Melchizedek and all its significance, in a thread that would be anywhere near coherent with all that associated noise.

One historical fact is the greatest of Church Fathers; (i.e. Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards) had disagreements on many points in scripture but something they all agreed on were; "Total Depravity", man in his fallen state absolutely can not and will not choose God, not then, not now, not ever, and "Predestination", God chooses man's ultimate destiny and man has absolutely nothing to say about it.

Much of reformed Theology is what it is today because of the fore-mentioned Mental Giants and when they come to a consensus on something, I would recommend one to take note. Just FYI; If we estimate the Apostle John died somewhere around 100 AD, Augustine was born only 250 years latter. It blows my mind that Augustine may have known someone, who knew someone, who knew someone that actually knew The Lord Jesus, WOW!

Anyway, God choose some and not all before the beginning of the world before the beginning of time, for His good purpose and pleasure. (Here I go repeating myself again and feel another tangent coming) We know God is good and does all things to maximize His Glory. Like it or not; "It's all about God".

Sometimes I think man thinks way too much of himself to question WHY. If you think about it, I mean really think about it, man is a speck of dust, on a planet that is a speck of dust, in a solar system that is a speck of dust, in a galaxy that is a speck of dust, in a universe that is a speck of dust compared to an infinite God. Do you see your place now?

So God is infinitely bigger than the biggest thing we can possibly conceive, and SO WHAT if HE chooses some and not others, SO WHAT. GOD can do whatever HE wants to DO!.

What are YOU going to do about it, seriously what are YOU going to do? If someone doesn't like that, it's just TOO bad, I pity you, if you don't like it, it's just too bad!

The theatrics are for demonstration purposes only and not for anyone to take personally and the reference to YOU could be anyone reading this.

So my point is what are "YOU" going to do about it?

Option one;

In revelation of how insignificant you really are, you will fall on your knees and cry out as Isaiah "Woe to me for I am undone" in the presence of a Righteous and Holy God! This is one's ultimate realization of humility and total dependency on God for everything. Every breath you take, every beat of your heart, everything is dependent on God. God refers to your life in the scriptures as a vapor, here one moment and gone the next. Elitism doesn't fit here, there's no place for it.

Option Two;

You can shrug your shoulders and shake your head in disbelief. You could think a loving God would never condemn me, I'm good. (However if you could think with pure Holiness and Righteousness you'd would think much different). You would think you can find a better way to salvation, a salvation of your own choice, a salvation of your own invention. You could decide you don't want to be a christian anymore (lower 'c' intended). This my friend is the epitome of Elitism, thinking your smart enough, good enough, or whatever enough to save yourself, somehow apart from GOD.

Now make no mistake the Augustinian View is the minority report, a belief of the "FEW". The majority of theologians (past an present) the "MANY" actually think there is something good in man where man can choose God and save himself. However the scriptures tell us; The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17 9).

If I can point to one more undeniable truth from the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation it's perfectly clear Redemptive History has always been about the "FEW". Time of Noah a few, Lot a few, Isaiah a few, Lord Jesus and His teachings a few. The "MANY" always got it WRONG! If I were going to pick a side I'll pick the side of the "FEW".
 
What I agree with:

* 'Many will be called, but few will answer'
* 'Many will will say LORD, LORD....and I will say I never knew you'
* 'The potter controls the clay'
* 'Vessels made for honor...dishonor'

What I don't agree with:

* "Elect" meaning you were born into some special breed of God loving blood.
* "Predestination" meaning you that the individual does not have to make a heart choice to follow God. Said individual would already be formed to follow God. Look at Adam-He was the first right? wouldn't he have been made to 'follow' God? Look at Paul-he persecuted Christians until he repented on the road to Damascus. I suspect that both of these individuals are/ will be in heaven.

If we are all 'elected to be predestined' why would God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit send out messengers to the 'hedges & highways' to bring in the 'harlots, beggars & thieves'?

So in part I agree with you that there will be 'few'-but we don't get to make that determination. It is an individual heart issue whether you are born Jew, Gentile, Greek, Barbarian, Samaritan, Egyptian, Asian, American, Australian, Russian, etc, etc, etc....

We are commanded as the 'few' to reach out with the Gospel to ALL- we don't get to pick and chose (That's God's job). If "they" reject the Gospel- wipe the dust of your feet and move on. If "they" desire to hear the Word-stay and preach. Maybe one of those unelected not predestined people will be the next 'Saul/Paul' and REPENT!

How shameful for us when we stand before the Lord and He asks us why we were so arrogant in our silence. 'Woe to me and my unclean lips!' God have mercy on me a sinner-forgive me for not using my mouth for your work.
 
Ok that narrows it down a bit. When you say you don't believe in; the Elect and Predestination what do you do with the passage below and many, many similar passages?

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1 4 5)

Do you just throw them away?

Do you believe God is Sovereign? Do you believe God knows all things and He knows them perfectly? Do you believe in the Providential reign of God?

God choose Paul to be an Apostle of Lord Jesus Christ before the beginning of time. Before the beginning of time the Apostle Paul was Elect to spend eternity in the Kingdom. Was Paul saved at that time? No, he hadn't even been born yet but he was Elect to be saved.

Was Paul/Saul saved at the execution of Steven? No, I wouldn't think a Christian would stone another Christian. Saul became saved or Born Again if you will, on his way to Damascus when he met The Lord Jesus and became Paul. The Elect become saved at the point of conversion from the old heart to the new, thus "Born Again".

Now lets look at Judas. Was Judas Elect to be saved? No, Judas the scriptures tell us was a devil. Does God will evil? No, He isn't capable. Does God allow evil? Yes He does. To quote another member of this Forum, if He didn't we'd all be dead by morning.

As I point previous to Jeremiah 17; man without God's Grace can choose only evil. God didn't choose Paul or Judas to be evil, they are perfectly capable on their own. What God did choose, was to give Grace to Paul and not Judas and that was decided before the creation of the world.

Why does God choose some and not others, (again repeating myself again in the same thread), the scriptures are very clear on this;

Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9 13)

It's God's creation, He decides to who He will give mercy.

Now on preaching; Isaiah; "Here am I, send me", was commanded by God to proclaim the scriptures of the OT to a rebellious nation to where only a 1/10 would be spared. Did Isaiah know who the 1/10 were? No, so the Truth of the scriptures must be preached to all and God has already decided who's heart will be hardened and who will come to repentance. God decides these things, He has always known these things perfectly for all eternity.

Now how did God know only a 1/10 would be spared? He ordained it before the beginning of time.

God chooses in all things to maximize His Glory, that's God's prerogative. Now do all God's pre-decisions demonstrate His Glory? They do; (e.g. Mercy, Justice, Love, Wrath, Judgment, Holiness, Righteousness, etc.). How could a Just God not punish evil and still maintain His Glory?

Like I said before, what is shocking to me isn't that He has mercy on a "FEW", but mercy on anyone at all. God would be perfectly Just in condemning us all to hell for we all have sinned.

So by denying these fundamental doctrines of the Christian Faith is to disregard much of scripture and be in opposition to the Church Fathers and deny God the attributes of being God. Are you prepared to do that?

Is your disbelief something of your own making or do you have scripture to support? (I would ask please don't just cut-and-paist a bunch of verses but provide clear context and reasoning)

Thank You.
 
Brother, I am a sinner saved by the Grace of God through faith in His Son Jesus Christ for what He did on the cross for me and ALL sinners. 'All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God' which contradicts "predestination" as you present it. Do you accept that you are a sinner saved by Grace? I am not preselected to go to heaven-I had to make a choice as we ALL have to make a choice. I choose to believe and have faith in our Eternal God, Creator and Savior. I accept that not ALL will be saved. I accept that there will be many that will proclaim faith in the Lord but it is a false faith- producing no fruit. Do I always DO what I am supposed too? No, but I have a repentant heart. I accept that I am a sinner deserving of death and Hell. But thanks be to God that He gave us a way out through HIS WORK, not ours and not through the law.

It appears to me you are trying to argue supremacy (elitism) over people (unbelievers) twisting the core principle of salvation to prove "predestination" is that God has chosen people in advance to go to heaven-which defeats most of scripture. So to give you an answer of scripture: the answer is between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.

Please don't question my faith. I am not perfect-nor do I claim to have all the answers-but God does. My presumption is that you feel you are a "chosen" / "predestined" one correct? And you don't see any flaws in your personal theology do you?

You are making the case for people to question their faith; casting doubt on their salvation. Do you make God's word of 'none effect'? You can put your faith in other mens' hands if you desire-may faith will remain anchored in the Word.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
 
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