More Harm Than Good.

To understand "predestination" you have to examine the Creation of mankind and the fall into sin. Mankind was "predestined" to be in the glory of God....then Adam & Eve chose to sin....creating the mess we are in today until His return.

Predestination as you present it contradicts the fundamentals of salvation, Christ's crucifixion, Christ's teachings, Christ's commandments for preaching the Gospel, repentance, belief, free will, and I am sure the list could go on. What would be the point of following the Bible if God picked out the 'special people' throughout all of history? I might as well follow my sin nature till God taps me on the shoulder and tells me it is time to go home.

Your style of predestination removes the necessity for faith. It just doesn't make sense.
 
Are you familiar with the concept of scope?

You read the folowing and think it applies to you-
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1 4 5)

Why would you assume that "us" includes you? That is part of the problem, it seems that many who read the Bible think that everything in it somehow applies to them.

They gloss over the "many are called, few are chosen". What makes you think you were called?
Are you Holy and blameless? I know of none who would make such a bold claim.
 
Glomung said:
Are you familiar with the concept of scope?

You read the folowing and think it applies to you-
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1 4 5)

Why would you assume that "us" includes you? That is part of the problem, it seems that many who read the Bible think that everything in it somehow applies to them.

They gloss over the "many are called, few are chosen". What makes you think you were called?
Are you Holy and blameless? I know of none who would make such a bold claim.
Click to expand...

Too whom are you addressing Glomung?
 
It was pointed at Donato.
Perhaps it's the ghost of blogs past the is pestering me, but I have noticed that folks have a nasty habit of assuming that any and every thing in scripture applies to them. It's understandable, nobody wants to think of themselves as inconsequential, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of us are - inconsequential, (except to ourselves of course).
 
Glomung said:
It was pointed at Donato.
Perhaps it's the ghost of blogs past the is pestering me, but I have noticed that folks have a nasty habit of assuming that any and every thing in scripture applies to them. It's understandable, nobody wants to think of themselves as inconsequential, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of us are - inconsequential, (except to ourselves of course).
Click to expand...

I guess you could ask the question: does God NEED us? To follow 'predestination' in this manner would answer this question with a 'yes'. That God somehow needs us to fulfill His purpose.

This is contrary to everything Biblical; WE need God; not the other way around. We were created to be dependent on Him.
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
What I agree with:

* 'Many will be called, but few will answer'
* 'Many will will say LORD, LORD....and I will say I never knew you'
* 'The potter controls the clay'
* 'Vessels made for honor...dishonor'

DONATO: What I don't agree with:

* "Elect" meaning you were born into some special breed of God loving blood.

JACK: Yet, we were "elected" before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him (Eph. 1:4). If the ele tion took place before we were created, what part did we have in it?

DONATO: * "Predestination" meaning you that the individual does not have to make a heart choice to follow God. Said individual would already be formed to follow God. Look at Adam-He was the first right? wouldn't he have been made to 'follow' God? Look at Paul-he persecuted Christians until he repented on the road to Damascus. I suspect that both of these individuals are/ will be in heaven.

JACK: You make a false definition of predestination. Yet, the Scripture very clear says that we were predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-29).

DONATO: If we are all 'elected to be predestined' why would God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit send out messengers to the 'hedges & highways' to bring in the 'harlots, beggars & thieves'?

JACK: Yet, it has pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save some. Ezekiel was ordered to preach to a valley full of dead, dry bones, and God brought them life.

DONATO: So in part I agree with you that there will be 'few'-but we don't get to make that determination. It is an individual heart issue whether you are born Jew, Gentile, Greek, Barbarian, Samaritan, Egyptian, Asian, American, Australian, Russian, etc, etc, etc....

We are commanded as the 'few' to reach out with the Gospel to ALL- we don't get to pick and chose (That's God's job). If "they" reject the Gospel- wipe the dust of your feet and move on. If "they" desire to hear the Word-stay and preach. Maybe one of those unelected not predestined people will be the next 'Saul/Paul' and REPENT!

JACK: I agree that we don't pick and choose, we are to preach the gospel to all the world, because we don't know who the elect are. But no one unelected or unpredestinated (if there is such a word) will repent. We simply don't know who they are.

DONATO: How shameful for us when we stand before the Lord and He asks us why we were so arrogant in our silence. 'Woe to me and my unclean lips!' God have mercy on me a sinner-forgive me for not using my mouth for your work.
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JACK: Amen! On that point, we agree.
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
To understand "predestination" you have to examine the Creation of mankind and the fall into sin. Mankind was "predestined" to be in the glory of God....then Adam & Eve chose to sin....creating the mess we are in today until His return.

Predestination as you present it contradicts the fundamentals of salvation, Christ's crucifixion, Christ's teachings, Christ's commandments for preaching the Gospel, repentance, belief, free will, and I am sure the list could go on. What would be the point of following the Bible if God picked out the 'special people' throughout all of history? I might as well follow my sin nature till God taps me on the shoulder and tells me it is time to go home.

Your style of predestination removes the necessity for faith. It just doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

JACK: Like it or not, "Predestination" is a Bible word. We are told that God is the one who predestinates (Ro. 8:30). The end result of that divine predestination is the glorification of the believer. You might want to note the six places where this word occurs in the NT (Acts 4:28; Ro. 8:29-30; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11) and note the contexts of the passages. If you wish, I'd love to discuss this with you, but perhaps "Bible Study" would be a better place.
 
Jack Williamson said:
JACK: Like it or not, "Predestination" is a Bible word. We are told that God is the one who predestinates (Ro. 8:30). The end result of that divine predestination is the glorification of the believer. You might want to note the six places where this word occurs in the NT (Acts 4:28; Ro. 8:29-30; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11) and note the contexts of the passages. If you wish, I'd love to discuss this with you, but perhaps "Bible Study" would be a better place.
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Jack......of all Bible doctrines, I have found that Predestination is by far the hardest for people to understand.

It would be easy if we could get our selves out of the way and forget what man has taught and rely on the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:29-30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

All believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.

All truely born agasin people will be conformed to Christ.We are bone to bone, and flesh to flesh, His divine nature rests on us therefore we will become conformed to His image.

HOW. Because God is soverign. He is able to count things done before they have been done.

Here then is what we say to that......."I do not understand that"?????

Neither do I! IF I did it would not increase my faith in God. IF I could understand God then I would be equal with God which means I would have no God. I am glad the justified shall live by faith and NOT by wisdom or understandign or having to do anything.
 
Major said:
Jack......of all Bible doctrines, I have found that Predestination is by far the hardest for people to understand.

It would be easy if we could get our selves out of the way and forget what man has taught and rely on the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:29-30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

All believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.

All truely born agasin people will be conformed to Christ.We are bone to bone, and flesh to flesh, His divine nature rests on us therefore we will become conformed to His image.

HOW. Because God is soverign. He is able to count things done before they have been done.

Here then is what we say to that......."I do not understand that"?????

Neither do I! IF I did it would not increase my faith in God. IF I could understand God then I would be equal with God which means I would have no God. I am glad the justified shall live by faith and NOT by wisdom or understandign or having to do anything.
Click to expand...

Amen! I clearly remember the first time I was exposed to the idea of election and predestination, and I thought the person explaining it to me had lost his mind. I never dreamt that forty some years later I would embrace that teaching. But, you're right. It is very difficult to understand, but biblical nonetheless.
 
Ok, first off I'm chief among sinners, oh wait that title is already taken, 2nd chief then... Also your scripture references don't contradict the Doctrine of Election. If it were that easy this Doctrine would have been put to rest long, long, ago and God would not be God. The Church Fathers wouldn't be; Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards but Niche and his "Ad Nihilism".

Your argument isn't with me or my interpretation, I'm just a mental midget, but I'm standing on the shoulders of GIANTS; (Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, etc.), it's them you have to disqualify, not me! And like I said you have your work cut out for you.

Anyway in your statement; "I made a choice to choose God". This is where the error is. What made you choose God? Do you believe you are smarter, holier, and more righteous than other men who don't choose God? What in you made you choose God. (Hint: God did, before you were even born, before the beginning of time, for all eternity, He choose you.)

Do you believe God is sovereign? Do you believe somehow you choose God apart from God's sovereign will? If that could be done, than God would not be sovereign, and God would not be God.

I think your scriptural knowledge is good but I don't think you comprehend what an omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent Being really is. Do you think something can possibly happen outside of those attributes that He didn't ordain?

I'd really like to nip this in the bud. In your next response just answer me one question;

Do you believe you choose God apart from Him having willed it?
 
Glomung said:
Are you familiar with the concept of scope?

You read the folowing and think it applies to you-
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1 4 5)

Why would you assume that "us" includes you? That is part of the problem, it seems that many who read the Bible think that everything in it somehow applies to them.

They gloss over the "many are called, few are chosen". What makes you think you were called?
Are you Holy and blameless? I know of none who would make such a bold claim.
Click to expand...




First your quote from another thread;

"Remember that the Bible is written about God, not by God. It is mainly history, and as such can be trusted.
The many authors were writing down their experiences and what they heard of at the time. If some things seem contradictory, remember that the authors were not writing their doctoral dissertations, they were trying to provide commentary on the experiences in their lives."
Click to expand...

You don't even believe every word of the Bible was divinely inspired by God, and It's obvious you don't know the scriptures by your replies, it's just a contradictory book of words from a bunch of men who heard things about history and such and can't be trusted.

So what exactly are you trying to say and on what authority, your own? If you don't believe the scriptures you just can't use them when it suits your purpose.
 
Jack Williamson said:
Amen! I clearly remember the first time I was exposed to the idea of election and predestination, and I thought the person explaining it to me had lost his mind. I never dreamt that forty some years later I would embrace that teaching. But, you're right. It is very difficult to understand, but biblical nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Funny, I've heard of several accounts where people have resisted the Doctrine of Predestination for years only to come around latter to embrace it, however 40 years is the longest I've heard.

Myself I don't think I ever questioned it. I believe every word in the scriptures was divinely inspired by God. If God can create this entire Universe, He should have no problem keeping this little old book together.

I don't see how anyone could read the following verses Ephesians 1 1-14; 2 8-10; Romans 8 28-39; 9 11, 16; 1 Corinthians 1 26–31, 2 Thessalonians 2 13-14; 2 Timothy 1 9–10; John 15 16 and come back and say Predestination is un-Biblical? It's a Biblical word, I didn't just make it up, I'm not that smart.
 
Donato said:
Ok, first off I'm chief among sinners, oh wait that title is already taken, 2nd chief then... Also your scripture references don't contradict the Doctrine of Election. If it were that easy this Doctrine would have been put to rest long, long, ago and God would not be God. The Church Fathers wouldn't be; Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards but Niche and his "Ad Nihilism".

Your argument isn't with me or my interpretation, I'm just a mental midget, but I'm standing on the shoulders of GIANTS; (Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, etc.), it's them you have to disqualify, not me! And like I said you have your work cut out for you.

Anyway in your statement; "I made a choice to choose God". This is where the error is. What made you choose God? Do you believe you are smarter, holier, and more righteous than other men who don't choose God? What in you made you choose God. (Hint: God did, before you were even born, before the beginning of time, for all eternity, He choose you.)

Do you believe God is sovereign? Do you believe somehow you choose God apart from God's sovereign will? If that could be done, than God would not be sovereign, and God would not be God.

I think your scriptural knowledge is good but I don't think you comprehend what an omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent Being really is. Do you think something can possibly happen outside of those attributes that He didn't ordain?

I'd really like to nip this in the bud. In your next response just answer me one question;

Do you believe you choose God apart from Him having willed it?
Click to expand...

"We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be regenerated, or born again; that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind; that it is effected in a manner above our comprehension by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; and that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance, and faith, and newness of life."
(Quoted from: BAPTIST CHURCH MANUAL, Revised, J.M. Pendleton, 1966, Broadman Press, Nashville, Tennessee, pp. 49-50)
 
DIRTY: Please don't take this the wrong way Donato- not trying to be hateful: But this type of thinking is illogical when you research the scriptures and it produces an elitist mentality and defeats the purpose of Christ's commandment to preach the Word to 'ALL creatures'. I find that many 'unsaved' and 'cult' leaders use this doctrine to run their organizations the way they see fit-not God's way. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that 'many will be called and few will answer', that in 'that day...they will say Lord Lord... and I will say I do not know you' -JC.

JACK: I realize you addressed this to Danto who is doing very well in responding to the points that you raised. May I join in the fray? Predestination doesn't contradict the commandment to preach the message to all the world. We simply don't know who the elect are and we have been commanded to preach to all the world. The author of Hebrews made the statement that Noah's Ark was constructed to house "his household" (Hb. 11:7). That was only eight people. Yet, Noah preached the word for 120 years to the whole world. The Ark was never designed, constructed, or fitted to house any more. God knew for 120 years how many would respond to the message. When Ezekiel was commanded to preach to that valley of dry, dead, and parched bones, it was God who brought them alive. Could God have done that without the preaching of the Prophet? Of course.

DIRTY: 1: Being 'elect' and "not saved" makes no sense.

JACK: Read Acts 13:48, I think that will address this confusion. Ask youself of this verse, "Who would come to believe in Christ?"

DIRTY: 2: We do not know the hearts of men-only God does.

JACK: Amen. That's why we take the message to all the world.

DIRTY: 3: I do believe it is possible to be saved if you do not hear the 'Gospel' directly if your heart is right.

JACK: There may be rare exceptions, like in the life of John the Baptist who leap for joy in the womb, but generally speaking, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Truth (Ro. 10:17).

DIRTY: 4: Christ commanded us to A: love your neighbor (we could debate 'who is your neighbor' all day) AND B: to preach the Gospel and baptize all those who believe in Him in the Name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

JACK: Yes, I agree. The parable of the Good Samaritan was given in answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" The answer was: anyone near you.

DORTU" We are not to be judges of the heart- I am incapable of making that condemnation, and so is every other human. I have to 'fight' with myself-'put away all malice'- in this area when dealing with others. I don't always win either-God forgive me...

JACK: Amen!
 
Jack Williamson said:
DIRTY: Please don't take this the wrong way Donato- not trying to be hateful: But this type of thinking is illogical when you research the scriptures and it produces an elitist mentality and defeats the purpose of Christ's commandment to preach the Word to 'ALL creatures'. I find that many 'unsaved' and 'cult' leaders use this doctrine to run their organizations the way they see fit-not God's way. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that 'many will be called and few will answer', that in 'that day...they will say Lord Lord... and I will say I do not know you' -JC.

JACK: I realize you addressed this to Danto who is doing very well in responding to the points that you raised. May I join in the fray? Predestination doesn't contradict the commandment to preach the message to all the world. We simply don't know who the elect are and we have been commanded to preach to all the world. The author of Hebrews made the statement that Noah's Ark was constructed to house "his household" (Hb. 11:7). That was only eight people. Yet, Noah preached the word for 120 years to the whole world. The Ark was never designed, constructed, or fitted to house any more. God knew for 120 years how many would respond to the message. When Ezekiel was commanded to preach to that valley of dry, dead, and parched bones, it was God who brought them alive. Could God have done that without the preaching of the Prophet? Of course.

DIRTY: 1: Being 'elect' and "not saved" makes no sense.

JACK: Read Acts 13:48, I think that will address this confusion. Ask youself of this verse, "Who would come to believe in Christ?"

DIRTY: 2: We do not know the hearts of men-only God does.

JACK: Amen. That's why we take the message to all the world.

DIRTY: 3: I do believe it is possible to be saved if you do not hear the 'Gospel' directly if your heart is right.

JACK: There may be rare exceptions, like in the life of John the Baptist who leap for joy in the womb, but generally speaking, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Truth (Ro. 10:17).

DIRTY: 4: Christ commanded us to A: love your neighbor (we could debate 'who is your neighbor' all day) AND B: to preach the Gospel and baptize all those who believe in Him in the Name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

JACK: Yes, I agree. The parable of the Good Samaritan was given in answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" The answer was: anyone near you.

DORTU" We are not to be judges of the heart- I am incapable of making that condemnation, and so is every other human. I have to 'fight' with myself-'put away all malice'- in this area when dealing with others. I don't always win either-God forgive me...

JACK: Amen!
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Jack............I have never heard the example of Noah as you used it. That is excellant my brother.....Thanks.
 
I do believe God knows who will and will not be saved, but it poses these questions:


Are we just acting out a play for God? Does predestination mean we don't have free will? Still wondering why exactly we evangelize, but I assume the answer is obedience.
 
Hi Life. We just need to think about the crucifixion of Jesus and we should know we are not just acting out a play.

Sure, nobody's salvation is on our head, but God definitely puts us where He needs us. We are the light and salt of the earth.

I want to share with you my current view on
God knows who will and will not be saved.
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I know we have killed it in the past. ;)

Creator + omniscient + sovereign + impartial + good = God gives all 100% free will. We are all made from the same lump of clay. We choose to be vessels of honour or vessels of dishonour.

The common mistake most make is: Creator + omniscient + sovereign = Calvinism. Ignoring scripture describing that God is good and impartial. Not acknowledging the fact that a God that shows preference is partial and a God that would create hell and pre-destine a baby to be sent there is evil. People will suffer in hell because they, like the devil, chose to rebel against God. Otherwise only the devil and God should be there? >< ?

Creator + omniscient + sovereign + partial + evil = God creates one vessel from a lump of dishonour and another from a lump of honour.
 
Hi King, thank you for your reply, but I guess this was more geared towards Major and Jake because it appears they take the predestination belief. Have you addressed them? I'm far too young in my walk with the Lord to argue against anyone is saying right now and I see both sides, but it is tough to argue with scripture that states we were predestined to begin with.
 
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