Mormonism
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
Mormons are interesting ..
they reject scripture if it contradicts their books ..
I have a friend who is an elder of the church and my biggest faux pas is his insistence that scripture is tainted .. thus they can pick and choose what is correct as they see fit ..
yet they trust in the divination of Mr Smith as he put a rock in a hat and his face in the hat to view it ..
BTW: they also believe God the father is flesh and blood ..
and satan is Jesus' brother ..
they reject scripture if it contradicts their books ..
I have a friend who is an elder of the church and my biggest faux pas is his insistence that scripture is tainted .. thus they can pick and choose what is correct as they see fit ..
yet they trust in the divination of Mr Smith as he put a rock in a hat and his face in the hat to view it ..
BTW: they also believe God the father is flesh and blood ..
and satan is Jesus' brother ..
History
In 1823, Smith said that an angel Moroni told him of the existence, with the plates, of "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like "two smooth three-cornered diamonds." Oliver Cowdery said the stones were "transparent". Smith and his early Mormon contemporaries seem to have used the terms "seer stone" and "Urim and Thummim" interchangeably. Although Smith always referred to the Book of Mormon "interpreters" as the Urim and Thummim, he may or may not have intended to make a distinction between that device and the seer stones that he used in receiving revelations.
In 1827, Smith said that he had been visited again by the angel who had previously revealed the location of the Gold Plates, along with other items such as the Urim and Thummim, and that these objects were buried in a nearby hillside. Smith said that after translating the Book of Mormon, he returned the plates and the Urim and Thummim to the angel, whom he identified as the resurrected Moroni. Joseph Smith reportedly told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was an inexperienced translator but that as he grew in experience, he no longer needed such assistance.
The LDS Bible Dictionary defines the Urim and Thummim as "an instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages." In the Book of Mormon, the prophets the Brother of Jared and Mosiah both used devices called "interpreters" to receive revelation for their people, and the Doctrine and Covenants declares that these "interpreters" were the Urim and Thummim.
A 21st-century artistic representation of the Golden plates, Urim and Thummim, Sword of Laban, and Liahona
In 1823, Smith said that an angel Moroni told him of the existence, with the plates, of "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like "two smooth three-cornered diamonds." Oliver Cowdery said the stones were "transparent". Smith and his early Mormon contemporaries seem to have used the terms "seer stone" and "Urim and Thummim" interchangeably. Although Smith always referred to the Book of Mormon "interpreters" as the Urim and Thummim, he may or may not have intended to make a distinction between that device and the seer stones that he used in receiving revelations.
In 1827, Smith said that he had been visited again by the angel who had previously revealed the location of the Gold Plates, along with other items such as the Urim and Thummim, and that these objects were buried in a nearby hillside. Smith said that after translating the Book of Mormon, he returned the plates and the Urim and Thummim to the angel, whom he identified as the resurrected Moroni. Joseph Smith reportedly told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was an inexperienced translator but that as he grew in experience, he no longer needed such assistance.
The LDS Bible Dictionary defines the Urim and Thummim as "an instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages." In the Book of Mormon, the prophets the Brother of Jared and Mosiah both used devices called "interpreters" to receive revelation for their people, and the Doctrine and Covenants declares that these "interpreters" were the Urim and Thummim.
A 21st-century artistic representation of the Golden plates, Urim and Thummim, Sword of Laban, and Liahona
so the Urim and Thummim were the Breastplate with the glasses attached to it .. which Mr Smith later just used the seer stones he previous owned for treasure hunting, in a hat with his face in the hat ..
Joseph Smith translating the golden plates by examining a seer stone in his hat.
so what was the purpose of the hat ???
sensory deprivation
The Ganzfeld experiment involves sensory deprivation which might be seen as comparable with scrying. According to the small community of parapsychologists, it provides the best known evidence for psi abilities in the laboratory.
Joseph Smith translating the golden plates by examining a seer stone in his hat.
so what was the purpose of the hat ???
sensory deprivation
The Ganzfeld experiment involves sensory deprivation which might be seen as comparable with scrying. According to the small community of parapsychologists, it provides the best known evidence for psi abilities in the laboratory.
I found this particularly interesting, since this is the reported method of translating ..
One method of scrying using a crystal ball involves a self-induced trance. Initially, the medium (object) serves as a focus for the attention, removing unwanted thoughts from the mind in the same way as a mantra. Once this stage is achieved, the scryer begins a free association with the perceived images suggested. The technique of deliberately looking for and declaring these initial images aloud, however trivial or irrelevant they may seem to the conscious mind, is done with the intent of deepening the trance state, in this trance the scryer hears his own disassociated voice affirming what is seen within the concentrated state in a kind of feedback loop. This process culminates in the achievement of a final and desired end stage in which rich visual images and dramatic stories seem to be projected within the medium itself, or directly within the mind's eye of the scryer, something like an inner movie. This process reputedly allows the scryer to "see" relevant events or images within the chosen medium.
One of the most famous scryers in history lived in the 16th century and was known as Nostradamus. He used a bowl of water or a "magic mirror" to "see" the future in it, while he was in trance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying
One method of scrying using a crystal ball involves a self-induced trance. Initially, the medium (object) serves as a focus for the attention, removing unwanted thoughts from the mind in the same way as a mantra. Once this stage is achieved, the scryer begins a free association with the perceived images suggested. The technique of deliberately looking for and declaring these initial images aloud, however trivial or irrelevant they may seem to the conscious mind, is done with the intent of deepening the trance state, in this trance the scryer hears his own disassociated voice affirming what is seen within the concentrated state in a kind of feedback loop. This process culminates in the achievement of a final and desired end stage in which rich visual images and dramatic stories seem to be projected within the medium itself, or directly within the mind's eye of the scryer, something like an inner movie. This process reputedly allows the scryer to "see" relevant events or images within the chosen medium.
One of the most famous scryers in history lived in the 16th century and was known as Nostradamus. He used a bowl of water or a "magic mirror" to "see" the future in it, while he was in trance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying
I'm not endorsing scrying ..
but I do find it very interesting Joseph, grandson of Isaac, and son of Jacob (1 of the 12 tribes) who begat the replacement tribe of Ephraim, used scrying .. this also is the man that Moses made sure to take his bones back for burial in the promised land ..
note: the Urim and Thummim (originally used) had 2 clear stones that must at least gave a translucent view .. but the seer stones later used in the hat were not clear (Mr Smith's favorite was chocolate color) .. the way I understand it, he saw the images on the seer stone at the bottom of the hat .. which he vocalized it, and then his aid repeated it back to him .. then the next image with the English below it would appear ..
but I do find it very interesting Joseph, grandson of Isaac, and son of Jacob (1 of the 12 tribes) who begat the replacement tribe of Ephraim, used scrying .. this also is the man that Moses made sure to take his bones back for burial in the promised land ..
note: the Urim and Thummim (originally used) had 2 clear stones that must at least gave a translucent view .. but the seer stones later used in the hat were not clear (Mr Smith's favorite was chocolate color) .. the way I understand it, he saw the images on the seer stone at the bottom of the hat .. which he vocalized it, and then his aid repeated it back to him .. then the next image with the English below it would appear ..
Some basic and creepy teachings of the LDS church:
Adam is father God.. He was once a child who had a father before him and so on...eternal endless Gods. And we are to become Gods as well.
Jesus is a created being, one god among many and the spiritual brother of satan. Jesus was conceived by father God having sex with Mary
Salvation? Well you are saved by grace after all you could do yourself...following the laws and ordinances of "Christ", confessing with your mouth that Joseph Smith is a true prophet...also the blood of Christ is not enough to atone for your sins your own blood must be spilled as well.
That's enough to determine whether or not they are following the Gospel, me thinks.
This info can be found in the Journal for Discourses, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith by: Joseph smith, Doctrine and Covenants, Articles of Faith and other LDS approved literature.
Adam is father God.. He was once a child who had a father before him and so on...eternal endless Gods. And we are to become Gods as well.
Jesus is a created being, one god among many and the spiritual brother of satan. Jesus was conceived by father God having sex with Mary
Salvation? Well you are saved by grace after all you could do yourself...following the laws and ordinances of "Christ", confessing with your mouth that Joseph Smith is a true prophet...also the blood of Christ is not enough to atone for your sins your own blood must be spilled as well.
That's enough to determine whether or not they are following the Gospel, me thinks.
This info can be found in the Journal for Discourses, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith by: Joseph smith, Doctrine and Covenants, Articles of Faith and other LDS approved literature.
reformed Egyptian is a "coined term" (doubtfully accurate) and would equate to a bastardized script that may have appeared Egyptian to one with no linguistic knowledge .. not a true hieroglyph, but indeed a script .. and most likely not even remotely Egyptian .. thus having no official status .. from my observation, it appears to be something more closer resembling a cross between early Samaritan (which in itself is bastardized) and vinca 3 .. and being there is no textual claim to the Americas or New world (only assumed) but only to a "land of "fountains" (artisan ?) and rivers .. it may in fact be a reference to a European location, as Hebrew does seem to show early influence to pre-Roman northern Germanic tribes (which could be reached by ships) .. so to call it "doodlings" seems to be a bit unprofessional to me .. perhaps cookie cutters like Klaus Baer do not know any better when looking at something besides mdw·w-nṯr ..
also the Caractors Document seems to be a copy rotated 90 deg, and made from the Anthon Transcript ..
also the Caractors Document seems to be a copy rotated 90 deg, and made from the Anthon Transcript ..
ever hear of the "Cup of Fates" in Greek mythology ???
they got it from the Egyptians ..
and you can find it in the Bible ..
here is the KJV .. Gen 44:1-34 ..
Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed is this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?
Eusebius speaks about Lehi's claimed ancestor who also used scrying ..
"Scyphus quam furati estis, ipse est, in quo bibit Dominus meus, et in quo augurari solet."
scripture does say Joseph "says he did" so either he did, or it was part of the ploy to set them up when he hid the cup in the grain sack .. the bible does not make it clear ..
most likely Eusebius just assumed it was so ..
(perhaps "Scyphus" coming from St Jerome's Vulgate being a poor translational choice of words)
for instance .. Abraham told the King that Sarah was his sister, to which his wife actually was his half-sister (same father) ..
Joseph could have been giving only part of the data as well ..
indeed he did "divine" as a prophet, but he does not say that it was the "cup" in which he divined through ..
they got it from the Egyptians ..
and you can find it in the Bible ..
here is the KJV .. Gen 44:1-34 ..
Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed is this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?
Eusebius speaks about Lehi's claimed ancestor who also used scrying ..
"Scyphus quam furati estis, ipse est, in quo bibit Dominus meus, et in quo augurari solet."
scripture does say Joseph "says he did" so either he did, or it was part of the ploy to set them up when he hid the cup in the grain sack .. the bible does not make it clear ..
most likely Eusebius just assumed it was so ..
(perhaps "Scyphus" coming from St Jerome's Vulgate being a poor translational choice of words)
for instance .. Abraham told the King that Sarah was his sister, to which his wife actually was his half-sister (same father) ..
Joseph could have been giving only part of the data as well ..
indeed he did "divine" as a prophet, but he does not say that it was the "cup" in which he divined through ..
ever hear of the "Cup of Fates" in Greek mythology ???
they got it from the Egyptians ..
and you can find it in the Bible ..
here is the KJV .. Gen 44:1-34 ..
Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed is this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?
Eusebius speaks about Lehi's claimed ancestor who also used scrying ..
"Scyphus quam furati estis, ipse est, in quo bibit Dominus meus, et in quo augurari solet."
scripture does say Joseph "says he did" so either he did, or it was part of the ploy to set them up when he hid the cup in the grain sack .. the bible does not make it clear ..
most likely Eusebius just assumed it was so ..
(perhaps "Scyphus" coming from St Jerome's Vulgate being a poor translational choice of words)
for instance .. Abraham told the King that Sarah was his sister, to which his wife actually was his half-sister (same father) ..
Joseph could have been giving only part of the data as well ..
indeed he did "divine" as a prophet, but he does not say that it was the "cup" in which he divined through ..
they got it from the Egyptians ..
and you can find it in the Bible ..
here is the KJV .. Gen 44:1-34 ..
Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed is this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?
Eusebius speaks about Lehi's claimed ancestor who also used scrying ..
"Scyphus quam furati estis, ipse est, in quo bibit Dominus meus, et in quo augurari solet."
scripture does say Joseph "says he did" so either he did, or it was part of the ploy to set them up when he hid the cup in the grain sack .. the bible does not make it clear ..
most likely Eusebius just assumed it was so ..
(perhaps "Scyphus" coming from St Jerome's Vulgate being a poor translational choice of words)
for instance .. Abraham told the King that Sarah was his sister, to which his wife actually was his half-sister (same father) ..
Joseph could have been giving only part of the data as well ..
indeed he did "divine" as a prophet, but he does not say that it was the "cup" in which he divined through ..
The Mormons do not know the Gospel, therefore they cannot preach salvation.
They do know just enough scriptures, which they mix in with their unsound doctrines, to sound believable to the unlearned.
I am surprised there are so many on this forum that are so interested!
"Search ye the scriptures...".
They do know just enough scriptures, which they mix in with their unsound doctrines, to sound believable to the unlearned.
I am surprised there are so many on this forum that are so interested!
"Search ye the scriptures...".
sure they do .. my friend who is an elder of the church of Mormon knows the bible better then most Christians do .. they use the KJV bible as well as the Book of Mormon and Book of Pearls .. the thing is, they believe the bible is also corrupted where it contradicts their two books ..
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Yes, agree. But they do not read or teach the Bible in its context; but in the context of their own belief system. Consequently,
as I said, they cannot preach salvation.
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Beloved, the "tenets of salvation...the same as others do"? In other words, they do what the JW's do: learn the doctrine of the majority of believers to "sound" Christian, but then lead the hearers, but unlearned, astray.
actually .. Mr Smith edited (corrected according to him) the entire bible .. meaning he changed parts ..
salvation comes through Jesus when we embrace Him and His sacrifice on the cross for our sins .. so yeah .. they can and do preach salvation correctly .. they just have a lot of dogmatic understandings as well ..
but they see those who use just the bible as dogmatic because they claim corruption where it does differ .. here is what he told me ..
I am anti Catholic doctrine as well as Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of Christ, Jehovah Witness, Mennonite, Seventh Day Adventist and every other doctrine taught outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Here is what the Savior had to say when asked by Joseph Smith which church he should join.
JSH 1:19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
I am anti Catholic doctrine as well as Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of Christ, Jehovah Witness, Mennonite, Seventh Day Adventist and every other doctrine taught outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Here is what the Savior had to say when asked by Joseph Smith which church he should join.
JSH 1:19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
____________________________________________________
OK, Beloved...then the question becomes (please listen carefully): can we be saved by eating "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..."? If we can, then everything else becomes moot. And I contend that Mormonism, among others, are doing just that.
But if the answer is no, then we must examine even what we believe and "...give diligence to make sure your calling and election sure...".
here is what he also said ..
His gospel is the same everywhere on the earth, and those who recorded it, did so as they were instructed. The differences are often in what has been deleted from the earliest Biblical texts. None of the texts used to compile the Bible are older than about 200 A.D. As far as the Isaiah text that appears in the Book of Mormon, the text that is used there was because it was on the Plates of Brass that Lehi took with them. About 30% of Isiah is quoted on the Gold Plates from which came the Book of Mormon. About 60% of the more than 400 Isaiah verses found in the Book of Mormon read differently than those in the Bible. All of these texts predate anything that has been used to compile the Bible, whether from Isiah or those of the Savior. If you would ever bother to read the Book of Mormon you would see that Christ worked through Prophets that wrote the texts that are found in the Book of Mormon just as he did those of Israel. Very Simply the teachings found in the Book of Mormon are more complete and easier to understand than those in the Bible. The last entries on the Plates of Brass are dated at 600 B.C. with most of it much older than that. It appears that these plates were the original texts that date back at least to Moses. Believe what you wish, I have the truth, which you nor anyone else on this forum has ever bothered to read. Until you do, you all put your salvation in hands of others that have convinced you what to believe. You will never find salvation by an appeal to the Bible only nor in any ancient manuscripts written by those who are called by the world the early church fathers. Confusion reigns in the Christian world and it will until you and the rest of mankind open not only your eyes and ears but also your hearts.
and my reply ..
I have not found any protests regarding the date of P 52. There is consensus among C. H. Roberts, Frederic Kenyon, H. I. Bell, Adolf Deissmann, and W. P. Hatch. I have found the arguments very convincing for the early date of the papyrus. P52 shows critical similarities to many other early papyri: P. Fayum 110 (94 CE); the Egerton Gospel (130-50 CE); P. Oslo 22 (127 CE); P. London 278 (81-96 CE); and P. Berolinenses 6845 (ca 100 CE). The closest papyrus is P. Berolinenses 6845 (ca 100 CE) - even P. Berol. 6845 has handwriting that parallels other first century papyri, but the editors dated it second century because of its appearance. Therefore, the editors of the most recent publication of P52 have dated it closer to 100 CE (Comfort, The Text of the Earliest Greek NT MSS, 2001).
THE YOUNGER DATE NOW APPLIED IS ONLY 2 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF JOHN (98 ad) MEANING IT IS EVEN POSSIBLE IT CAME FROM HIS HAND ..
you have NOTHING that can prove that the Golden Tablets that were used to compile the Mormon scripture were accurate translations of the original texts other than BELIEF ..
you sure you want to travel this path ???
the message should be the same .. Love God, Love others, and Live righteously ..
do we not both preach this ???
His gospel is the same everywhere on the earth, and those who recorded it, did so as they were instructed. The differences are often in what has been deleted from the earliest Biblical texts. None of the texts used to compile the Bible are older than about 200 A.D. As far as the Isaiah text that appears in the Book of Mormon, the text that is used there was because it was on the Plates of Brass that Lehi took with them. About 30% of Isiah is quoted on the Gold Plates from which came the Book of Mormon. About 60% of the more than 400 Isaiah verses found in the Book of Mormon read differently than those in the Bible. All of these texts predate anything that has been used to compile the Bible, whether from Isiah or those of the Savior. If you would ever bother to read the Book of Mormon you would see that Christ worked through Prophets that wrote the texts that are found in the Book of Mormon just as he did those of Israel. Very Simply the teachings found in the Book of Mormon are more complete and easier to understand than those in the Bible. The last entries on the Plates of Brass are dated at 600 B.C. with most of it much older than that. It appears that these plates were the original texts that date back at least to Moses. Believe what you wish, I have the truth, which you nor anyone else on this forum has ever bothered to read. Until you do, you all put your salvation in hands of others that have convinced you what to believe. You will never find salvation by an appeal to the Bible only nor in any ancient manuscripts written by those who are called by the world the early church fathers. Confusion reigns in the Christian world and it will until you and the rest of mankind open not only your eyes and ears but also your hearts.
and my reply ..
I have not found any protests regarding the date of P 52. There is consensus among C. H. Roberts, Frederic Kenyon, H. I. Bell, Adolf Deissmann, and W. P. Hatch. I have found the arguments very convincing for the early date of the papyrus. P52 shows critical similarities to many other early papyri: P. Fayum 110 (94 CE); the Egerton Gospel (130-50 CE); P. Oslo 22 (127 CE); P. London 278 (81-96 CE); and P. Berolinenses 6845 (ca 100 CE). The closest papyrus is P. Berolinenses 6845 (ca 100 CE) - even P. Berol. 6845 has handwriting that parallels other first century papyri, but the editors dated it second century because of its appearance. Therefore, the editors of the most recent publication of P52 have dated it closer to 100 CE (Comfort, The Text of the Earliest Greek NT MSS, 2001).
THE YOUNGER DATE NOW APPLIED IS ONLY 2 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF JOHN (98 ad) MEANING IT IS EVEN POSSIBLE IT CAME FROM HIS HAND ..
you have NOTHING that can prove that the Golden Tablets that were used to compile the Mormon scripture were accurate translations of the original texts other than BELIEF ..
you sure you want to travel this path ???
the message should be the same .. Love God, Love others, and Live righteously ..
do we not both preach this ???