Moving past this hurt & bitterness seems difficult :/

[Major]

Rom 16:12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord.

These three names are all "women" who labored hard in the Lord!!! They had to have some kind of ministry, as no body labors in the Lord with out a a ministry.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22–33) and in the church.

I agree with you! Those women did work hard and were a blessing to Paul, however there is NO indication that they were deacons. They were servants, YES but the words simply are not there that say they were deacons.

The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.

 

[Major]

This is why we use "context" to find what is being said. If there is no word to describe wife / women, or husband / man then context and other scriptures are used to find what is being said.

1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Paul refers to "women" "praying", and "prophesying" in the Church. That would not make any sense if he meant in another chapter not to let women ever speak in the Church, and then he says it OK here, unless our thinking is wrong in what scriptures are telling us, which it is.

Maybe the Holy Spirit got it wrong in allowing "women" to speak in the Church.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

No my dear brother. You are going to different Bible verses to somehow make them contextual to the ones in 1 Tim. about women not being deacons and pastors. It just is impossible to do.

My brother, please take a step back, take a deep breath and look at how hard you are having to work to try to prove your opinion and you are not even close to doing so.

Does't that tell you something??????

 

[Major]

No where in the Bible will you find that "man" has "authority", or is the "head" of any women except in "marriage"
There is no Greek word denoting the difference between "man" and "husband". Neither is there a word for "woman", and " wife"
The "Weymouth" does get it right.

1 CORINTHIANS 11:3
3 I would have you know, however, that of every man
Christ is the head, that the head of a woman is her husband, and that the head of Christ is God. (WEYMOUTH)

This scripture is talking about a "husband", and "wife" situation, not a man and some other woman in the Church. The word "woman" would be speaking to "wifes" and the man would be a her "husband. Which is why in verse 13 it talks about Adam, and Eve who were married.

1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

We have the samething spoken of in this scripture.

1Co 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
1Co 14:35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Women (wife) are to be silent in Church, and if they learn any thing they are to ask their "husbands" at home, not while the Church services is going on.
The word "women" should be "wife". Wife's are to be silent in the Churches not "women". The only time a man is the head of a women is in "marriage", but never in the Church. How do I know this?

Gal 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

In the Church there is no "male", or "female", so there is no such a thing as a man having authority over a women for there is no woman or man in Christ.

All those scriptures that you see where it says, "if a man desires to be a bishop, or deacon, are ALL taking about a "husband" not man or male. It always makes mention that this "husband" only has "one" "wife", not many wife's., or a man. There are no restrictions on women being a deacon, or pastors.

I did a little more study on this so as to be able to speak clearly on it instead of from my memory.

To speak to your claim about "women and wives" it is found that the Greek word for “women” in 1 Timothy 3:11 is the word "gunaikas".

That refers to women. The only way Paul could refer to women in verse 11 would be to use the Greek word gunaikas, because there is no feminine form of diakonos from which comes the word Deacon, therefore He had to identify them as women which is exactly what he did.

 

[Euphemia]

You are blurring the issue now. I am not seeing any scripture in your posts.

I see no blurring. I use the same scriptures you do. It's how we heed the teaching of Holy Spirit that differs.

 

[Euphemia]

Not so in any way. IF you choose to believe that then you are in rebellion to God's Word. It is just that simple.

What part of 1 Tim 3:1-7 is confusing??????............
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife............".

In the grammatical Greek of the original, “The husband of one wife”: Literally in Greek a “one woman man.”

Yes, women share the exact same gifting as men do. Holy Spirit doesn't check between the legs to see if one qualifies or not. Neither should anyone else.

 

[Euphemia]

Was she an ordained deacon?

Ordained by God is the prerequisite...not man's denominational rule.

 

[Euphemia]

I did a little more study on this so as to be able to speak clearly on it instead of from my memory.

To speak to your claim about "women and wives" it is found that the Greek word for “women” in 1 Timothy 3:11 is the word "gunaikas".

That refers to women. The only way Paul could refer to women in verse 11 would be to use the Greek word gunaikas, because there is no feminine form of diakonos from which comes the word Deacon, therefore He had to identify them as women which is exactly what he did.

No feminine, "deaconess", which means that Phoebe was a deacon, a minister---even a pastor---in the church of Cenchrae.

 

[Euphemia]

Not so in any way. IF you choose to believe that then you are in rebellion to God's Word. It is just that simple.

What part of 1 Tim 3:1-7 is confusing??????............
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife............".

In the grammatical Greek of the original, “The husband of one wife”: Literally in Greek a “one woman man.”

Not true. I am not in rebellion to the word of God in any way.

The qualifications of bishop are for anyone whom God calls to that position. That there were not women available as overseers or elders in the brand new churches is the reason that Paul mentions males. Males are the one who would have had more than one wife...not the women, so men needed to be told this in particular.

It is not an edict that stipulates males only.

 

[Major]

Not true. I am not in rebellion to the word of God in any way.

The qualifications of bishop are for anyone whom God calls to that position. That there were not women available as overseers or elders in the brand new churches is the reason that Paul mentions males. Males are the one who would have had more than one wife...not the women, so men needed to be told this in particular.

It is not an edict that stipulates males only.

I do not agree my sister.

A common argument that you are working to expand is that Paul restricts women from teaching/preaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated or not available. However, 1 Timothy 2:11–14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, then the majority of Jesus’ disciples would not have been qualified and a lot more would fit that same case today.

Then If it is availability then how do you explain that when Jesus was on the cross only 1 man was there and 3 women were there. Women were always around Jesus. It was women who were the 1st at the resurrection for goodness sakes. No mamm, it is just not a defendable Bible position Euphemia. YOU can be one all you want to by your choice but it will not be in line with the Word of God.

 

[Major]

No feminine, "deaconess", which means that Phoebe was a deacon, a minister---even a pastor---in the church of Cenchrae.

Absolutely not true.

In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church.

 

[Major]

Not true. I am not in rebellion to the word of God in any way.

The qualifications of bishop are for anyone whom God calls to that position. That there were not women available as overseers or elders in the brand new churches is the reason that Paul mentions males. Males are the one who would have had more than one wife...not the women, so men needed to be told this in particular.

It is not an edict that stipulates males only.

Call whatever you want to call it but it is not following the Word of God and I do not mean to be insensitive or mean spirited by saying that, only truthful.

I am well aware that in a social climate of complete equality in all things, the Biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and deacons is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But that is not the problem at all is it???? But the question remains, is this Biblical?

The Bible's answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." I know that YOU and many others do not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the Biblical standard. I knew when I made the comment we would be having this kind of conversation.

First of all, please know that I for a fact know that women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue. It is God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's Word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants as you are trying to do and then sit back and say......"I am not in rebellion".

Instead, we must change and adapt to what the Bible in fact says. It is not about being fair or equality or twisting words like "MAN" to mean "Everyone" and so and so on. If you are comfortable doing those things........go right ahead!!!
I for one can not do that any more than I could willingly break the directions of God to not kill someone or to lie or steal. But that is just me !!

 

[Euphemia]

I do not agree my sister.

A common argument that you are working to expand is that Paul restricts women from teaching/preaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated or not available. However, 1 Timothy 2:11–14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, then the majority of Jesus’ disciples would not have been qualified and a lot more would fit that same case today.

Then If it is availability then how do you explain that when Jesus was on the cross only 1 man was there and 3 women were there. Women were always around Jesus. It was women who were the 1st at the resurrection for goodness sakes. No mamm, it is just not a defendable Bible position Euphemia. YOU can be one all you want to by your choice but it will not be in line with the Word of God.

We have a responsibility to learn about the context of Paul's letters....his time. Being unaware of this works against your understanding.

 

[Glomung]

add a little light to this discussion

The word "deacon" is derived from the Greek word diákonos (διάκονος), which is a standard ancient Greek word meaning "servant", "waiting-man", "minister", or "messenger". One commonly promulgated speculation as to its etymology is that it literally means "through the dust", referring to the dust raised by the busy servant or messenger.

The title "deaconess" (διακόνισσα) is not found in the Bible. However, a woman, Phoebe, is mentioned at Romans 16:1–2 as a deacon (diakonos) of the church in Cenchreae. Nothing more specific is said about her duties or authority. It is generally believed that the office of deacon originated in the selection of seven men by the apostles, among them Stephen, to assist with the charitable work of the early church as recorded in Acts 6. Female deacons are mentioned by Pliny the Younger in a letter to Trajan dated c. 112. The exact relationship between male and female deacons varies. In some traditions a female deacon is simply a member of the order of deacons; in others, deaconesses constitute a separate order; in others, the title "deaconess" was also given to the wife of a deacon.

A biblical description of the qualities required of a deacon, and of his household, can be found in 1 Timothy 3:1–13

btw the term minster used here does not have the same meaning as "minister" in Protestant circles

 

[Euphemia]

Absolutely not true.

In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church.

A diakonos/deacon is a minister in the local church. Phoebe was a deacon.

 

[Major]

Ordained by God is the prerequisite...not man's denominational rule.

Romans 16:1........
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well."

It is unclear, whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a deacon or whether he is just saying she is a servant. It is well known that In the early church, women servants cared for sick believers, the poor, strangers, and those in prison. They instructed women and children just as today. Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but obviously Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the tremendous responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome.
Clearly, he saw her not as inferior or less capable, but as a trusted and valued member of the body of Christ.

The truth is that if it were not for women there would not be a Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, it is still that same Jesus Christ for told man what to write.

1 Tim. 3:12........
"Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well."


Now when you can explain how a woman can be the HUSBAND of one wife then I will be open to agreeing with you.

 

[Euphemia]

Call whatever you want to call it but it is not following the Word of God and I do not mean to be insensitive or mean spirited by saying that, only truthful.

I am well aware that in a social climate of complete equality in all things, the Biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and deacons is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But that is not the problem at all is it???? But the question remains, is this Biblical?

The Bible's answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." I know that YOU and many others do not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the Biblical standard. I knew when I made the comment we would be having this kind of conversation.

First of all, please know that I for a fact know that women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue. It is God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's Word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants as you are trying to do and then sit back and say......"I am not in rebellion".

Instead, we must change and adapt to what the Bible in fact says. It is not about being fair or equality or twisting words like "MAN" to mean "Everyone" and so and so on. If you are comfortable doing those things........go right ahead!!!
I for one can not do that any more than I could willingly break the directions of God to not kill someone or to lie or steal. But that is just me !!

Do some real prayerful study. Holy Spirit will teach you otherwise.

 

[Euphemia]

Romans 16:1........
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well."

It is unclear, whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a deacon or whether he is just saying she is a servant. It is well known that In the early church, women servants cared for sick believers, the poor, strangers, and those in prison. They instructed women and children just as today. Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but obviously Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the tremendous responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome.
Clearly, he saw her not as inferior or less capable, but as a trusted and valued member of the body of Christ.

The truth is that if it were not for women there would not be a Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, it is still that same Jesus Christ for told man what to write.

1 Tim. 3:12........
"Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well."


Now when you can explain how a woman can be the HUSBAND of one wife then I will be open to agreeing with you.

Deacons and pastors are servants. And not in the sense of serving coffee and doughnuts.

 

[Major]

Do some real prayerful study. Holy Spirit will teach you otherwise.

Really funny Euphemia. Your "elitism" is showing once again.

Is that your explanation of how a woman can be the husband of one wife????

Is there some reason why I can not encourage you to read your Bible after praying for the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth of the Scriptures.

See, it works both ways.

 

[Major]

Deacons and pastors are servants. And not in the sense of serving coffee and doughnuts.

And that is true 100%!!!

The English word "servant" is a proper and accurate translation of the Greek word "diakonos."

 

[Euphemia]

Really funny Euphemia. Your "elitism" is showing once again.

Is that your explanation of how a woman can be the husband of one wife????

Is there some reason why I can not encourage you to read your Bible after praying for the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth of the Scriptures.

See, it works both ways.

Yes...a man who wants to lead needs to be married only once, and the same thing goes for a woman. The text refers to a "person".