Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

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2404 said:
Thank you gentlemen for cutting me slack in my persuasion. True, Baptist theology holds the concept of Trinity to be scriptural. There are a few other doctrinal issues that I also have moved over to. In Matthew where it says to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, I believe that name to be the Lord Jesus Christ, for we know that our salvation is through the atonement of His sacrifice, so if that is the way then we ought to be baptized accordingly and it says the 'name' not names for i am a father and a son but my name is 'john doe' ... That also supports monotheism in that the only one who can justify His law is the Maker Himself. It wouldn't be right to have a third party pay the price.
Anyway, you've heard it from me before so let me close by saying - God is the judge.
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I research the written Word…not to prove or disprove any beliefs, but for accuracy…

The following is from some research I did many years ago regarding Matthew 28:19 and updated slightly last year.

Since you brought up Matt 28:19 I thought I would give you what I had….



There are a couple problems with the verse Matt 28:19

The writings of Eusebius 260-340 A.D, the Bishop of Caesarea is called the father of Church History due to his extensive writings on the subject. Eusebius quotes from Matthew a number of times in his writings. He quotes Mat 28:19 as "Go disciple ye all the nations in my name” 17 times including an oration in Praise of Constantine.

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching whether Christ was God or a creation of God. If the manuscripts that he had in front of him were written as in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…. Eusebius never would have quoted it as saying “in my name”

Oration in Praise of Constantine

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2504.htm)

I used to have the names of the earlier manuscripts that quoted “in my name” but I not sure where they are…probably on a floppy disc somewhere …

However, the other problem, and what caught my attention originally with this scripture was the phrase “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” was nowhere to be found in the epistles. There is not a single occurrence of them (the apostles) baptizing anyone by that formula. All the records in the NT have them baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. It cannot be deliberate disobedience of the Apostles since my research of the formula “in the name of Jesus Christ” Is substantiated in all earlier writings and MMS.
 
sandman said:
I research the written Word…not to prove or disprove any beliefs, but for accuracy…

The following is from some research I did many years ago regarding Matthew 28:19 and updated slightly last year.

Since you brought up Matt 28:19 I thought I would give you what I had….



There are a couple problems with the verse Matt 28:19

The writings of Eusebius 260-340 A.D, the Bishop of Caesarea is called the father of Church History due to his extensive writings on the subject. Eusebius quotes from Matthew a number of times in his writings. He quotes Mat 28:19 as "Go disciple ye all the nations in my name” 17 times including an oration in Praise of Constantine.

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching whether Christ was God or a creation of God. If the manuscripts that he had in front of him were written as in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…. Eusebius never would have quoted it as saying “in my name”

Oration in Praise of Constantine

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2504.htm)

I used to have the names of the earlier manuscripts that quoted “in my name” but I not sure where they are…probably on a floppy disc somewhere …

However, the other problem, and what caught my attention originally with this scripture was the phrase “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” was nowhere to be found in the epistles. There is not a single occurrence of them (the apostles) baptizing anyone by that formula. All the records in the NT have them baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. It cannot be deliberate disobedience of the Apostles since my research of the formula “in the name of Jesus Christ” Is substantiated in all earlier writings and MMS.
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Thank-you for your research and expertise.
In regard to Constantine I believe his actions were politically motivated and I don't believe church and state mix.
 
sandman said:
There are a couple problems with the verse Matt 28:19
The writings of Eusebius 260-340 A.D, the Bishop of Caesarea is called the father of Church History due to his extensive writings on the subject. Eusebius quotes from Matthew a number of times in his writings. He quotes Mat 28:19 as "Go disciple ye all the nations in my name” 17 times including an oration in Praise of Constantine. Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching whether Christ was God or a creation of God. If the manuscripts that he had in front of him were written as in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…. Eusebius never would have quoted it as saying “in my name”
However, the other problem, and what caught my attention originally with this scripture was the phrase “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” was nowhere to be found in the epistles. There is not a single occurrence of them (the apostles) baptizing anyone by that formula. All the records in the NT have them baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. It cannot be deliberate disobedience of the Apostles since my research of the formula “in the name of Jesus Christ” Is substantiated in all earlier writings and MMS.
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Hello sandman;

Good outline and I do have a question for discussion. What I follow and blue-lighted, after the New Testament canon was accepted by the end of the first century, Eusebius of Caesarea was a leading biblical scholar and was very systematic.

What Eusebius presented at Nicaea, how do we reconcile this with Matthew 28:19?

God bless you, brother, and your family.
 
bobinfaith said:
What Eusebius presented at Nicaea, how do we reconcile this with Matthew 28:19?
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I don’t think there is a definitive answer ….

Like I stated I have seen two MMS…. several years ago, and was given a copy of them on a disc… but I cannot remember the numerical designation …and if I still have the disc it’s buried in storage. But even at that there is no certainty.

We can see the formula of “in the name of Jesus Christ” used throughout the epistles, which appear to corroborate each other, but in Matthew 28:19 we have nothing to compare it to, and can neither be proved nor disproved…as frustrating as it is, I think this is one of the cases where we just don’t know for sure. But we should probably roll with the abundance of clear verses.
 
People get so hung up on a word. If you don't like Trinity, then use "the Triune nature of God" or "the three essences of the one God". Just like water has three states: frozen, liquid and vapor, it is still H2 O. Electricity can be measured in volts, amps and watts. No matter how you measure it, it still can zap you.
 
I’m still looking for the passage that says, “Believe on the Holy Trinity and thou shalt be save.
or
”The Trinity was put forth as a propitiation through faith in the Trinity’s blood.” cf Rom 3:25

OTOH, to reject the Trinity is to reject God as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.
 
Big Moose said:
People get so hung up on a word. If you don't like Trinity, then use "the Triune nature of God" or "the three essences of the one God". Just like water has three states: frozen, liquid and vapor, it is still H2 O. Electricity can be measured in volts, amps and watts. No matter how you measure it, it still can zap you.
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A valid point but a relationship implies familiarity.
 
sandman said:
I research the written Word…not to prove or disprove any beliefs, but for accuracy…

The following is from some research I did many years ago regarding Matthew 28:19 and updated slightly last year.

Since you brought up Matt 28:19 I thought I would give you what I had….



There are a couple problems with the verse Matt 28:19

The writings of Eusebius 260-340 A.D, the Bishop of Caesarea is called the father of Church History due to his extensive writings on the subject. Eusebius quotes from Matthew a number of times in his writings. He quotes Mat 28:19 as "Go disciple ye all the nations in my name” 17 times including an oration in Praise of Constantine.

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching whether Christ was God or a creation of God. If the manuscripts that he had in front of him were written as in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…. Eusebius never would have quoted it as saying “in my name”

Oration in Praise of Constantine

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02 (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2504.htm)

I used to have the names of the earlier manuscripts that quoted “in my name” but I not sure where they are…probably on a floppy disc somewhere …

However, the other problem, and what caught my attention originally with this scripture was the phrase “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” was nowhere to be found in the epistles. There is not a single occurrence of them (the apostles) baptizing anyone by that formula. All the records in the NT have them baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. It cannot be deliberate disobedience of the Apostles since my research of the formula “in the name of Jesus Christ” Is substantiated in all earlier writings and MMS.
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In the name of Jesus was a short tag to all 3 persons, as the Jewish people hearing peter would know that be baptized into name of Jesus meant that he was lord and Messiah, bujt the other 2 persons would have been used also!
 
Big Moose said:
People get so hung up on a word. If you don't like Trinity, then use "the Triune nature of God" or "the three essences of the one God". Just like water has three states: frozen, liquid and vapor, it is still H2 O. Electricity can be measured in volts, amps and watts. No matter how you measure it, it still can zap you.
Click to expand...
The word Trinity not found in the bible, but clearly teaches 3 persons were and are called God in the Bible!
 
crossnote said:
I’m still looking for the passage that says, “Believe on the Holy Trinity and thou shalt be save.
or
”The Trinity was put forth as a propitiation through faith in the Trinity’s blood.” cf Rom 3:25

OTOH, to reject the Trinity is to reject God as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.
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One must accept that God is a Trinity in order to be true to the biblical testimony!
 
YeshuaFan said:
One must accept that God is a Trinity in order to be true to the biblical testimony!
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Hello YeshuaFan;

Your thread did invoke good thought for each of us. There are other passages that I still struggle with but Christian knowledge comes from all over and what is shared has helped me understand more of God's Word.

What I also find interesting is another person and I may agree on the same passage but just present it two different ways.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello YeshuaFan;

Your thread did invoke good thought for each of us. There are other passages that I still struggle with but Christian knowledge comes from all over and what is shared has helped me understand more of God's Word.

What I also find interesting is another person and I may agree on the same passage but just present it two different ways.
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Just seems to be show much confusion in even the church today about Jesus being very God, or that God is truine Being!
Herisies of Unitarianism/Modualism and Oneness seem to be creeping back in!
 
crossnote said:
I'm still looking for the verse that says, "Believe on the Trinity and thou shall be saved."

Actually, I do believe once someone has come to saving faith, being born again, they will not deny the Trinity once it has been explained to them from Scripture.
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All the fulness of the Godhead, i.e. Father and Holy Spirit are in Jesus. This is why we are told, "Look to Jesus and be saved."
..
 
crossnote said:
"Must one hold to the Trinity to be saved?"
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believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. the trinity is there i fail to fully understand oneness doctrine the 3 work together but yet separate.. we cant deny God john 3:16 for God so loved the world HE this is 1. gave HIS only begotten Son /- Jesus to die for our sins there is 2 then Jesus said it is better i go
John 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.
he gave us the comforter as one who walks along beside us. we also know the spirit draws us. all scripture

this makes 3 we have in Isiah 6 who will go for US who is us? technically the word trinity is not in the Bible . but then again neither is Rapture yet we all believe it could take place anytime.... so must one believe we go by scripture Jesus way truth life


so my question is since they are a type one but yet separate BUT IT TAKES ALL 3 still with me ? some are some are not...:)

why the Big issue the apostolic Baptize in Jesus name for the remission of sins which i %100 disagree with water never saved anyone. justified by faith Grace and the Blood . ( rabbit chase ) yet they teach baptism of the Holy Ghost . but yet also believe in God :eek:.


i fail to see the issue at hand i baptize people in the name of the father son Holy Ghost this is Jesus teaching.

Matthew 28:19​


“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

it takes 3 things to make flour gravy we need some grease flour and milk we stir until the gravy comes. yes of course we do need salt for flavor hmmm but my pint is we cant have gravy if we leave flour grease or milk out.. this is my uneducated theology.

this part is FREE Christians are so busy straining at a gnat over so called church doctrine. i will list a few of the big Fights yes fights Baptize in Jesus name only /father son Holy Ghost osas osnas foot washing even Church names over the door. can a woman teach in Church

reminds me of the Dr. Seuss book about the snitches one group had stars on the belly .they was the social group the IN crowd .

then those who had no stars on there belly they was left out . the one day a person come along with a machine that would put starts on the belly of those who had none. soon it turned to confusion 2 stars no stars . after it was all said and done and they couldnt tell one from the other . they realized they was just all sneeches and no body was any better than the next one..

amazing how ones scripture can create a doctrine that then creates division
you can ignore this even try to correct this lol. when the dust settles i will still be posting :)
 
crossnote said:
I’m still looking for the passage that says, “Believe on the Holy Trinity and thou shalt be save.
or
”The Trinity was put forth as a propitiation through faith in the Trinity’s blood.” cf Rom 3:25

OTOH, to reject the Trinity is to reject God as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.
Click to expand...

There is not a Scripture which says what you asked.

The actual answer is YES and NO.

In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved; that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God’s nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he’s a Christian.
 
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