The Holy Spirit will convice a sinner though that Jesus is God, and that the Father is also God!
Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?
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Hello YeshuaFan;
Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved? In my personal testimony, yes! absolutely!
Hello 2404,
For many Christians there was once a time whether the concept of God even existed. At some point, "we believe!"
Now the question in our faith is whether the Trinity is Scriptural. The word Trinity is not in the Bible but as we grow into seasoned Bible students we will see in the Old and New Testaments that the Trinity does exist, indeed. But without the teaching of the New Testament the Trinity cannot be revealed in the Old Testament and vice versa.
In the book of Genesis 1:2, 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And Genesis 1:26, 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
We are making reference that the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit and "us" and "our" completes the Trinity - God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of whom are God.
In Isaiah 63:8-16, 8 For he said, “Surely they are my people, children who will not deal falsely.” And he became their Savior. 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit, 12 who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them to make for himself an everlasting name, 13 who led them through the depths? Like a horse in the desert, they did not stumble. 14 Like livestock that go down into the valley, the Spirit of the Lord gave them rest. So you led your people, to make for yourself a glorious name. 15 Look down from heaven and see, from your holy and beautiful habitation. Where are your zeal and your might? The stirring of your inner parts and your compassion are held back from me. 16 For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.
Isaiah is prophesying the work of the Trinity between God, Jesus and Holy Spirit going all the way back to the Old Testament. Isaiah prophesizes more about the Holy Spirit than the other OT books.
In the book of Matthew 3:16-17, when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'”
In Matthew 20:18-20, 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Jesus reveals the work of the Trinity, and commission of all three members simultaneously distinct from one another but working as one Godhead.
2404, In our love for God, we long to know everything we can about Him. This doesn’t mean we will master the Trinity nor is the word Trinity in Scripture. This post is not to convince you "in a snap." Our commission is to present you the Scripture so you can dig deep what God says about His Trinity (again, though the word Trinity is not in Scripture.)
Personally, God's Trinity is much too high for me to fully grasp in my lifetime, but at the same time, God has chosen to reveal Himself to me which means it's a continuation of my own discipleship (study) and life long walk with Christ and important for me to know all I can about Him.
I hope this helps, 2404. God bless you and your family, brother.
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I am just trying to have all avoid the heresies of Unitarian, denying that Jesus is God, Oneness, saying that he is all of the trinity Himself, or Modualism, that God worked in 3 different roles!
Alright Bob let's just agree to disagree.
I was schooled in Baptist theology so I've heard and dealt with most theological issues, although be it 40 years ago. Then one day I heard about a ministry where the dead were raised, blinded eyes were opened, lame walked, deaf heard and the poor heard the gospel. It caught my attention and I've never looked back. As far as theological issues - they have been resolved. Jesus once said 'if you can't believe me believe the signs.
God bless
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will bring him to nothing at the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every wicked deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth and so be saved. (2Th 2:7-10)
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The debate over the Trinity is somewhat hubristic; it attempts to subordinate the description of God's nature to the science of human logic. However, we must bear in mind that the science of logic, codified by Aristotle, is a somewhat unsuccessful attempt to define, by human understanding, the divine gift of reason. All logic can be said to be reasonable, but not all reason can be said to be logical. The Trinity is a manifestation of illogical reason, yet this doesn't affect the absolute truth of its divine revelation.
Agree totally!
However I do not think that is what happens at the moment of salvation.
We are NOT saved by believing that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are ONE!
We are saved by believing the gospel, that Jesus Christ died for us, was burred and rose again on the 3rd day.
When we are correctly discipled and taught the Word of God it it then that we grow in faith and knowledge and LEARN about the Trinity.
IMHO the Trinity is a learned thing from Bible study not a ......oops, look what I just realized thing!
Now, to then be a real born again Christian, does one then have to believe and accept the doctrine of the Trinity to be saved......IMHO...YES!
EXAMPLE:
A man or men hear the gospel from someone on the day before a battle., The teacher asks them, Today, right now would you like to say the sinners prayer and accept the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as YOUR payment for YOUR and be saved from the judgement.
The next day they are killed in battle. Are they saved without even knowing or hearing that the Trinity is 3 person is ONE???........YES!...WHY?????
Because they believed upon the Lord Jesus for the payment of their sin.
What ministry was that my brother? Are your referring to that of the Lord Jesus???/
Bob........speaking only for myself and out of an abundance of experience, there are TWO doctrines that have been the downfall of many nominal believers. If one is not fully involved and educated to a proper understanding these TWO can be very disabling. They are #1..the Trinity and #2,
Predestination.
Both present their own distinct concerns and both have the ability to grow us or in some cases......confuse us depending upon the level of understanding that we posses.
I think personally that we are seeing that play out right in front of us on this forum issue.
Now don't misunderstand what I said. I believe both of them and I think I have a working understanding of both of them, but from the questions asked of me over the years from congregants, those two seem to cause more concerns than any of the other doctrines I know of.
I agree with you that at the point of salvation, one must trust in Jesus as being very God, but that the Holy Spirit also will reveal tot hem thast God is Trinity, for one cannot be really saved and hold to God such as Unitarians, oneness, and Modualism all do!
Hello my friend i trust all is well with you and yours.
We had a wonderfull weekend. We had ministers from the U.S. and locally, Friday, Saturday & Sunday.
Indeed we live in a glorious hour, believing this to be last days.
In response to your question, it seems we've been there before...
I'm referring to the work of Jesus Christ through the ministry of William Branham, a man just like you or I, sinner saved by grace, but God is sovereign and does as He pleases. There are some that say the whole thing was a hoax, but I know otherwise, in fact my inlaws, who are now deceased could have given personal testimony. But each to his own, I can only speak for my self and challenge whosoever will to check it out.
God bless you Major.
There arer many who have an aberrant view of God, such as heresies of Unitarianism, Oneness, and Modulaism, and they also have wrong understanding of the doctrine of election, as they seem to equate God being per petty and like a robot master!
What type of ministry would that be?
he was into heresy though, correct?
As he denied the trinity!
Brother 2404 asked a good question, "Where does God describe himself as a trinity? I can show you where it says that He is one God and thou shalt have no other gods. Trinity is not scriptural so where does it come from....
I merely supported his good question, and fair enough. When I studied the Trinity, also at a Baptist Theological Seminary, I struggled with the manifestation in three persons - God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit, it took me close to two semesters to grasp the three are One.
During class we debated fiercely between students and some toward the Professor, because the word Trinity was not in the Scriptures, or, did God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit work "separately?"
Does God alone save us? Does Jesus alone save us? Does the Holy Spirit alone save us? Therefore, the Trinity - God sustains our faith, Jesus carries us, the Holy Spirit intercedes within us, all three working as One that will bring us to salvation.
BibleLover's deep sub context explanation (joking BibleLover lol!) regarding debate over the Trinity in most discussions is not beneficial, and I do agree with his post. I'm paraphrasing what he shared in his final sentence, no one will ever master the Trinity but as disciples it is learnable but it will always be beyond our comprehension.
This is a doctrine that I believe is Scriptural but whether we believe it or not, I feel it takes the responsibility of every individual believer to seek God, discuss with fellow believers and have Him reveal it to each one of us. This is more beneficial during our personal growth with Christ.
Major, I agree with you. I noticed you use "speaking only for myself" or "IMHO" many times and I will receive that and go back and reference the Scriptures for myself. I tell you the truth. This approach is beneficial.
Everyone who posted to this topic offered good stuff in this discussion and fellowship. This will personally lead me to pull out my resources, study what was shared so I can continue to learn.
It is correct that the "word" Trinity is not in the Bible. The theological schools I went told told me that it comes under the heading of "Implied Truth".
That means that everything pertaining to the Trinity as 3 persons in one God head is present except the actual word itself. But there is more to it than that.
For example, the word “bible” is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway to describe the Bible. Likewise, the words “omniscience,” which means “all knowing,” “omnipotence,” which means “all powerful,” and “omnipresence,” which means “present everywhere,” are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. We don’t have to see a specific word in the Bible in order for the concept it describes to be true.
Another is the word, Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.
Another is the word Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).
Then there is the word, Monotheism which is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8).
And we all know that the word, Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18)
Thank you gentlemen for cutting me slack in my persuasion. True, Baptist theology holds the concept of Trinity to be scriptural. There are a few other doctrinal issues that I also have moved over to. In Matthew where it says to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, I believe that name to be the Lord Jesus Christ, for we know that our salvation is through the atonement of His sacrifice, so if that is the way then we ought to be baptized accordingly and it says the 'name' not names for i am a father and a son but my name is 'john doe' ... That also supports monotheism in that the only one who can justify His law is the Maker Himself. It wouldn't be right to have a third party pay the price.
Anyway, you've heard it from me before so let me close by saying - God is the judge.
Anyway, you've heard it from me before so let me close by saying - God is the judge.
all 3 Persons are called God in the scriptures , and the doctrine concept all the way thru the Bible!
Not 3 Gods, nor One God manifesting Himself in 3 different roles!
You are not into oneness heresy though, are you?
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