Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

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DavyP said:
It is better said that I do NOT support New Testament translations from the Codex Vaticanus (only discovered in the Vatican in 1475) and the Codex Sinaiticus (only discovered in the 1800s, in stages at a Catholic monastery). The origin of BOTH Codexes have not been proven, even though those like Wescott and Hort claimed they were the best and the oldest Greek texts, which also is not proven, yet that is what modern editors and publishers claim. For this reason, modern translations like the NIV have received quite a bit of heat from Evangelicals who understand the differences; Dr. Phil Stringer is just one of those.
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daniel wallace and many other textual experts disagree with you!
 
DavyP said:
The problem is statements like the above in red, "took on a "human-like form".

Saying that suggests that He did not have a human-like form (i.e., the image of man) while in the Heavenly, and that idea is nowhere written, but assumed by man's carnal fleshy thinking.

As I have said several times already, the image of man that God created aadam with comes from GOD's Own outward likeness and appearance per Genesis 1:26-27.

Do you believe Genesis 1:26-27 as written?

The image of man originated from the Heavenly, not from flesh humans. This means we must come to understand that image of man exists without a flesh body in the Heavenly. So our Heavenly Father and His Son have always... had that image of man, even in the Heavenly, and there is absolutely no need for Jesus to take on human form when coming to earth back in Old Testament times.
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That sounds mormon like, as are you saying both the father and Son had physical bodies while in heaven then?
 
DavyP said:
I don't think you understand what the word asexual means. Nor would I rely on modern dictionaries to define that word either, because of influence of the gay-transgender movement.

Some plants and animals are asexual, meaning having no need for male/female traits to reproduce. It is not really just about not having any sexual organs, but having both, and that is the pagan Androgyny belief about their gods.

What Lord Jesus is teaching is that in the heavenly, even though the angels have the image of man, there is no sexual reproduction. This is also why all those in Christ for the world to come will manifest literally in the Heavenly as "sons of God" (1 John 3:2). But the deceived Pharisees, they believe in a fleshy resurrection, that they will have new flesh bodies, and continue to marry and have flesh children in the world to come. Not so.
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Only mankind was said to be created in the very image of God
 
DavyP said:
That last statement above in red I never said, and that is what you should be clear about instead of including it within something I did say. That was my point. I usually put something like, so-and-so said: above the quote, or separate totally with a quote box, just to prevent that confusion.



Angels are not asexual, which would mean being able to reproduce. Sexual organs and the ability to reproduce is of this present FLESH world, not the world to come. And that was what Lord Jesus' Message about no marriage with the resurrection was actually about. And thus even though GOD Himself has the image of 'man', it doesn't mean He has sexual organs!

We will no longer be in flesh bodies in the world to come. The resurrection is to a "spiritual body", not another flesh body (see 1 Corinthians 15).


Gabriel's name means "man of God" like I showed from both the Hebrew of his name, and from Bible dictionaries.
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We shall indeed have a physical body, but will be in a risen and glorified state, same as body of Jesus!
 
DavyP said:
Not my God Jesus Christ...

Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
KJV

He and The Father each have always had the image likeness of man, since that is the outward likeness He said He created aadam with (Genesis 1:26-27).

Do you believe the Genesis 1:26-27 Scripture as written?
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God the father and Son eternally existed as Spirit, ONLY in the Incarnation did the Second person of the Trinity assume form of a Man!
 
DavyP said:
That last statement above in red I never said, and that is what you should be clear about instead of including it within something I did say. That was my point. I usually put something like, so-and-so said: above the quote, or separate totally with a quote box, just to prevent that confusion.



Angels are not asexual, which would mean being able to reproduce. Sexual organs and the ability to reproduce is of this present FLESH world, not the world to come. And that was what Lord Jesus' Message about no marriage with the resurrection was actually about. And thus even though GOD Himself has the image of 'man', it doesn't mean He has sexual organs!

We will no longer be in flesh bodies in the world to come. The resurrection is to a "spiritual body", not another flesh body (see 1 Corinthians 15).


Gabriel's name means "man of God" like I showed from both the Hebrew of his name, and from Bible dictionaries.
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I do not agree Davy. The Scriptures are clear to me! To believe that angels have sexual organs and can have sex is YOU reading into the Scriptures what YOU want them to say. There are absolutely NO Scriptures to support your opinion.

GOD having sexual organs is NOT part of the conversation and has no bearing. Everyone understands that God is SPIRIT and there is again NO Scriptures to support sexual parts.

NO ONE said that we would not have a spiritual body. We will according to the Scriptures have a "Glorified Body" just as does the Lord Jesus.

It does not matter what Gabriels name means. What I am saying to you is that there is NO/NONE/ZERO Scriptures that say he is an "Arch" angel which was the reason for the comment.
 
DavyP said:
I don't think you understand what the word asexual means. Nor would I rely on modern dictionaries to define that word either, because of influence of the gay-transgender movement.

Some plants and animals are asexual, meaning having no need for male/female traits to reproduce. It is not really just about not having any sexual organs, but having both, and that is the pagan Androgyny belief about their gods.

What Lord Jesus is teaching is that in the heavenly, even though the angels have the image of man, there is no sexual reproduction. This is also why all those in Christ for the world to come will manifest literally in the Heavenly as "sons of God" (1 John 3:2). But the deceived Pharisees, they believe in a fleshy resurrection, that they will have new flesh bodies, and continue to marry and have flesh children in the world to come. Not so.
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Davy.......you need to get away from the comments of "I dont think you understand" to others.

That is placeing you on a level above every one else.

You said.........
"What Lord Jesus is teaching is that in the heavenly, even though the angels have the image of man, there is no sexual reproduction. "

That is exactly what I mean!!!!!!!!

 
DavyP said:
The problem is statements like the above in red, "took on a "human-like form".

Saying that suggests that He did not have a human-like form (i.e., the image of man) while in the Heavenly, and that idea is nowhere written, but assumed by man's carnal fleshy thinking.

As I have said several times already, the image of man that God created aadam with comes from GOD's Own outward likeness and appearance per Genesis 1:26-27.

Do you believe Genesis 1:26-27 as written?

The image of man originated from the Heavenly, not from flesh humans. This means we must come to understand that image of man exists without a flesh body in the Heavenly. So our Heavenly Father and His Son have always... had that image of man, even in the Heavenly, and there is absolutely no need for Jesus to take on human form when coming to earth back in Old Testament times.
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But He did cause He could.
 
Big Moose said:
I believe that "Sons of God" in the OT are angels in every case.
In Jude, this passage speaks of those angels who "left their own habitation" and did as those in Sodom and Gomorrha and committed fornication and went after strange flesh. This is why they are reserved in everlasting chains until the judgement of the great day. They can't be asexual if they are "giving themselves over to fornication".

Jude:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like* manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

These are the angels, sons of God, in Genesis 6.
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I can not agree Moose. Now THINK that through Moose. All the way to TODAY.

IF the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6 are angels then they must be fallen angels because good angels would never sin and fornicate with humans.

So the 1st thing you need to do is explain why Jesus Lied in Matthew 22:30 when He said that angels do not marry/reproduce.
If the angels in heaven do not have the ability to have sexual relations then there is absolutely NO Bible reference to support the idea that they did in Genesis.

Then 2nd, IF...IF those demons did have sex with humans and had children, then DEMON DNA would have been in the human line.
That means YOU and ME and no one else is saved because of the DEMON DNA that would have come through Mary and polluted the genes.

Now we can say that all the "Daughters of Men" were killed in the flood, but there were 8 people who did not die and 6 of them went on to repopulate the earth. We do not know about the 3 wives of Noah's children.

If only ONE was not of the line of Seth then NO ONE IS SAVED. By the way........And the sons of Ham and his wife came the nations of Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. It has been proven that Canaan was one of the most dispicable nations in all of history.
 
DavyP said:
Not my God Jesus Christ...

Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
KJV

He and The Father each have always had the image likeness of man, since that is the outward likeness He said He created aadam with (Genesis 1:26-27).

Do you believe the Genesis 1:26-27 Scripture as written?
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Of course, I believe we are in the image of God.
 
DavyP said:
Sorry, I'm not into man's Oneness doctrines, which I see as an extension by converts to Christ from Judaism. Many of them still have a hard time believing that Lord Jesus is God, and one Person in the triune Godhead.

And I like the KJV translation of Hebrews 1:3 just fine...

Heb 1:1-3
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

That "... when He had by Himself purged out sins, ..." is also very important to understand, because it means The Father was excepted in that. So even though Jesus Himself said He and The Father are One, The Father did not come to die on the cross, only Jesus did, which reveals Jesus Christ 'God with us' in the flesh (Immanuel). Thus the triune Godhead is... pointing to three Persons. The word Person is just an English word for an individual or specific character; it doesn't define a specie of being.
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I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.
 
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Cooper said:
Who is God speaking of in Genesis 1:26? You said it wasn't angels, so I assumed you were speaking of persons. If I was wrong I apologise.
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let's think about this for a moment. in Colossians we know the WORD is the one who Created everything. 1:16 For by Him all things were created— in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.

so when we read the Creation account and come to Genesis 1:26 (let us/our), then we should see a confirmation in Verse 27 of the complete Godhead. Verse 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him. look at this portion (His OWN IMAGE). does that sound plural? sounds singular. this is why i believe Verse 26 is the WORD speaking to the Sons of God (read Psalms 82, you will see in the Bible it shows us God has a Council of Angels He calls Sons of God and He for some reason presents questions to them even though God is going to do what He wants to do no matter what the Council presents).
 
Cooper said:
I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.
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and where this makes the most sense is when two or more people, filled with the Holy Spirit, are gathered together Jesus is in the midst.

does that make sense? a bunch of people full of the Holy Spirit together but we get Jesus in the midst. why not the Holy Spirit in the midst? the Holy Spirit is inside the Believers. so shouldn't the Holy Spirit be in the midst of Holy Spirit filled people? instead, it is Jesus. I agree with this statement from you [I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.]

clearly when Holy Spirit filled Believers are gathered and it is Jesus in the midst proves this portion of your statement [Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts].
 
GodisSpirit said:
and where this makes the most sense is when two or more people, filled with the Holy Spirit, are gathered together Jesus is in the midst.

does that make sense? a bunch of people full of the Holy Spirit together but we get Jesus in the midst. why not the Holy Spirit in the midst? the Holy Spirit is inside the Believers. so shouldn't the Holy Spirit be in the midst of Holy Spirit filled people? instead, it is Jesus. I agree with this statement from you [I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.]

clearly when Holy Spirit filled Believers are gathered and it is Jesus in the midst proves this portion of your statement [Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts].
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You understand me and my faith. I am Pentecostal. :)
 
GodisSpirit said:
let's think about this for a moment. in Colossians we know the WORD is the one who Created everything. 1:16 For by Him all things were created— in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.

so when we read the Creation account and come to Genesis 1:26 (let us/our), then we should see a confirmation in Verse 27 of the complete Godhead. Verse 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him. look at this portion (His OWN IMAGE). does that sound plural? sounds singular. this is why i believe Verse 26 is the WORD speaking to the Sons of God (read Psalms 82, you will see in the Bible it shows us God has a Council of Angels He calls Sons of God and He for some reason presents questions to them even though God is going to do what He wants to do no matter what the Council presents).
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Spoken like a true believer. If I may, I will post about Psalm 82 from my notes.

Psalm 82. The 'Most High God' was possibly the High Priest or the chief judge. The sons of god are those under him, the magistrates. They were all corrupt. This is the 'god' who sat on the mercy seat between the two golden cherubim in Exodus 25.

The gods were men who acted as judges, it may have been the High Priest sitting on the mercy seat?

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.

1 God standeth in the great assembly;
he gives judgement among the "gods"

2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked? [false god]
Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods"
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Footnotes:
(verse 1) This is the beginning of the sentence and so 'God' is capitalized. The fact he stood in the great assembly tells us he was a man and was either a magistrate or judge possibly the High Priest who presided in the great assembly. They were known as 'gods' notice it is plural, these 'gods' are ordinary men.

(verse 2) In the Hebrew the 'you' is plural, and we know there is only one God, but these judges are showing partiality to the wicked.

(verse 3 & 4) These human 'gods' are not protecting the oppressed or the weak and needy.

(verse 5) These gods know nothing. They are not the almighty. Walk in darkness means they walk in sin and wickedness.

(verse 6) These 'gods' are the sons of the High Priest.

(verse 7) They will die like every other human ruler.

(verse 8) Now Asaph is calling for the Almighty God to rise up and judge these men.
 
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