My Favorite Trinity Passage Of Scripture ... Wow!

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Stan, no offence but you are not making much sense :confused:.

Neither. First Col 2:9 is about who Jesus is, NOT our salvation. Secondly we accept who Jesus is in God's plan for us. He is our Saviour.
I only quoted Col 2:9 to show who Jesus is...the fullness of the deity (Jesus, Holy Spirit and God). So, do you agree with me that we receive Him and the fullness of the God head when we are saved?

Not for me my friend. God is our Father and we become joint heirs with Christ when we receive Him. Jesus is the churches groom, which we are collectively. That is a spiritual fact and one reson for the Second Coming. As individuals, we are the sons and daughters of God.
Sons and daughters are not family?
 
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Thanks Kevin, but I know all this scripture very well.. What I said, was that "tongues" is the 'initial' evidence. NOT the ONLY, and it doesn't end there. The "tongues" received at the time of being infilled by the Holy Spirit is our spirit communicating and praising God. It is NOT the same as in a corporate church setting, which Paul does address in 1Cor 12 & 14.
Paul says LIKE he does, which means he did a LOT. It doesn't mean some did not. I know a lot of Christians who do NOT speak in tongues as much as I do and a lot more who speak in tongues more than I do. This 'tongues' which Paul talks about in 1Cor 14:5 & 18 (which BTW you combined in your statements above), is for the corporate setting. It is not the same as tongues used in private prayer. This is well known to those who do excercise the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is meant to be looked at positively, not negatively.

Expositing the Word of God, is NOT casting judgment on people. Would you like a newly saved sorcerer running around saying He was able to bring the Holy Spirit to believers? Acts 8:13-24
How did Simon know this? The same way those in Acts 10:44-45 did, they heard them speaking in tongues. as identified in Acts 10:46

It is evidence, just as Peter and John identified the lack of true repentance in Simon the sorcerer's life, when he asked for the ability to lay hands on people and have them receiv e the Holy Spirit. Simon did NOT show the initial evidence of a changed life, even though he believed.

BTW, 1 Cor 12:31, does say BETTER GIFTS...see the following;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Cor 12:31&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NASB;HCSB;PHILLIPS

You are right about 1 Cor 13; it is a more excellant or better way to walk in Christ.
What would you say then to a person who cannot speak in tongues, yet displays incredible gifts in faith and miracles? Have they not recieved the Holy Spirit? Tongues is not the only evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit.

BTW Simon was convicted by seeing the power of the apostles over demons and the miracles they performed not speaking in tongues.

Act 8:5
And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed Christ to them.
Act 8:6
And the people with one accord gave heed to those things which Philip spoke, hearing and seeing the many miracles which he did.
Act 8:7
For out of those having unclean spirits, many came out, crying with loud voice. And many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.
Act 8:8
And there was great joy in that city.
Act 8:9
But a certain man called Simon had long been conjuring in the city, and amazing the nation of Samaria, claiming himself to be some great one.
Act 8:10
All gave heed to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, This one is the great power of God.
Act 8:11
And they were paying attention to him, because for a long time he had amazed them with conjuring.
Act 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also, and being baptized, he continued with Philip. And seeing miracles and mighty works happening, he was amazed.
 
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Well there's your problem in understanding this issue. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is NOT, I repeat NOT a requirement of salvation. Where did you get that idea? Not from me my friend.

We do need evidence to prove our salvation. Read James. As I just showed above, read Acts 8 and the so-called salvation of Simon the sorcerer. Why do you think people get water baptised? Is it not to confirm one's confession of Christ as Saviour?

Paul says the corporate use of tongues is meant to be for unbelievers and that is a fact. Again people who do not have the Holy Spirit or do not understand the nuances of having Him in our lives, don't get it.

This issue is a matter of reality, NOT scriptural semantics. You either have the Holy Spirit and it is evidenced by the same thing as scripture shows, or you don't. Just like salvation...a very simple fact.
Stan.....Believe me my friend, I understand it very well.

You asked........
Where did I get the idea that the Holy Spirit is NOT a requirement of salvation??

Stan, here, right here is the problem. Stan.....WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN MAN, MAN CANNOT BE SAVED!!!!

There are those seeking the gifts of the Spirit who have never been partakers of the greatest gift He can bestow, and that is a broken heart and a contrite spirit before God. There are those who are seeking the Holy Spirit so they can see miracles, but have never had the miracle of the New Birth worked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Major, all a man has to do is believe, and the work of salvation is done!”

I will respond by asking a few more questions:

What are you going to do with John 5:40 where our Blessed Lord says............
“YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life?”

It is a matter of the WILL, and here our Lord said, YE WILL NOT.” I ask, “Who is going to make the WILL of man WILLING?”

What are you going to do with John 6:44 which says....................
“NO MAN CAN come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him?”

First, it was “WILL NOT,” and now it is CAN NOT.” Who then is going to give us the power to come?

What are you going to do with II Tim. 2:26 ..........
which says that the sinner is taken captive by Satan AT HIS WILL?

First, it was “WILL NOT” then “CAN NOT,” and now we are told that the sinner is UNDER THE WILL, or power and dominion, of Satan.
What are you going to do with John 8:44 where we find written, “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father YE WILL DO?” Put all of these Scriptures together and you will have “WILL NOT,” “CAN NOT,” “UNDER THE POWER OF SATAN’S WILL,” and the positive statement that the sinner “WILL DO THE LUSTS OF HIS FATHER, THE DEVIL.”

“WILL NOT” means that the sinner’s will is depraved and therefore he cannot come to Christ unless a work of divine grace is wrought in his soul by the power of the Holy Spirit. “CAN NOT” means he is helpless within himself to come unless the Holy Spirit draws him unto Christ. “UNDER THE WILL OF SATAN” means that One stronger than himself and Satan must set him free. The lusts of his father, the devil, HE WILL DO until he dies and goes to hell, unless Someone [the Holy Spirit] sets him free.
 
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Well there's your problem in understanding this issue. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is NOT, I repeat NOT a requirement of salvation. Where did you get that idea? Not from me my friend.

We do need evidence to prove our salvation. Read James. As I just showed above, read Acts 8 and the so-called salvation of Simon the sorcerer. Why do you think people get water baptised? Is it not to confirm one's confession of Christ as Saviour?

Paul says the corporate use of tongues is meant to be for unbelievers and that is a fact. Again people who do not have the Holy Spirit or do not understand the nuances of having Him in our lives, don't get it.

This issue is a matter of reality, NOT scriptural semantics. You either have the Holy Spirit and it is evidenced by the same thing as scripture shows, or you don't. Just like salvation...a very simple fact.
The infilling of the Holy Spirit is NOT, I repeat NOT a requirement of salvation. Where did you get that idea? Not from me my friend.

Stan, I mean no disrespect to you my friend but what you are saying is very incorrect!!

I realize you have spent a lot of time in the Pentacostal belief but please, please consider the Bible's teaching not denominational teaching.

THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN SALVATION IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to us if we are ever to be saved.

John. 6:63,,,,,,,,,
“It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. Listen again! “...the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING.”

The flesh has no part in the work of God. Listen to Jn. 3:6 where our Lord tells about the New Birth..........
“that which is born of the flesh is flesh...”.

We must be born again by the instrument of the Word in the hands of the Holy Spirit. All fleshly activities amount to nothing where the regeneration of dead sinners is concerned. Neither the logical arguments advanced by the MIND, nor the hypnotic powers brought to bear upon the will, nor touching appeals made to the EMOTIONS, nor beautiful music and hearty singing to catch the EAR, nor sensuous trappings to draw the EYE are of the slightest avail in stirring DEAD SINNERS. It is not the choir, nor soloist, nor the preacher, but the HOLY SPIRIT that saves us!!!
 
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Stan, no offence but you are not making much sense :confused:.

I only quoted Col 2:9 to show who Jesus is...the fullness of the deity (Jesus, Holy Spirit and God). So, do you agree with me that we receive Him and the fullness of the God head when we are saved?

Sons and daughters are not family?
You quoted Col 2:9 and made an assertion, which I refuted. If that doesn't make sense, I can't help you. Maybe you need to organize your thoughts somewhat before stating them.
As I just stated, we receive salvation when we are saved and the infilling of the Holy Spirit afterwards. The two should be simultaneous but not always. The ONLY Spirit we receive is the HOLY SPIRIT.

Obviously they are....what is your point?
 
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What would you say then to a person who cannot speak in tongues, yet displays incredible gifts in faith and miracles? Have they not recieved the Holy Spirit? Tongues is not the only evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit.

BTW Simon was convicted by seeing the power of the apostles over demons and the miracles they performed not speaking in tongues.
I have never met a person like that. If a person does not express in tongues, the initial reality of the infilling by the Holy Spirit, which the NT clearly indicates is speaking in tongues, then he is not. Just as a person who does not change his ways once saved is not saved. I have never said 'speaking in tongues' is the ONLY evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. I said it is THE initial evidence. Please pay attention.

I suggest you re-read this part of scripture then, to see what Simon responded to. It wasn't what he saw before he got saved, it is what he saw when Peter & John layed their hands on the believers to receive the Holy Spirit. Has can you not see that fact in the scripture?

When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them moneyand said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

In Acts, there are a few ways people received the infilling of the Holy Spirit. In this way, by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 10 just by lsitening to Peter, even befroe they we water baptised. In Acts 2 while the Apostles were waiting in prayer.
 
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Stan, here, right here is the problem. Stan.....WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN MAN, MAN CANNOT BE SAVED!!!!
I would suggest you supply some scriptural support of this statement. It's not what Jesus states in John 14:6

There are those seeking the gifts of the Spirit who have never been partakers of the greatest gift He can bestow, and that is a broken heart and a contrite spirit before God. There are those who are seeking the Holy Spirit so they can see miracles, but have never had the miracle of the New Birth worked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Again, wrong perspective. Jesus clearly points this out in John 6:44

The rest of your post seem to be directed at someone else but it was all messed up.
 
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Stan, I mean no disrespect to you my friend but what you are saying is very incorrect!!

I realize you have spent a lot of time in the Pentacostal belief but please, please consider the Bible's teaching not denominational teaching.

THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN SALVATION IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to us if we are ever to be saved.

John. 6:63,,,,,,,,,
“It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing. Listen again! “...the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING.”

The flesh has no part in the work of God. Listen to Jn. 3:6 where our Lord tells about the New Birth..........
“that which is born of the flesh is flesh...”.

We must be born again by the instrument of the Word in the hands of the Holy Spirit. All fleshly activities amount to nothing where the regeneration of dead sinners is concerned. Neither the logical arguments advanced by the MIND, nor the hypnotic powers brought to bear upon the will, nor touching appeals made to the EMOTIONS, nor beautiful music and hearty singing to catch the EAR, nor sensuous trappings to draw the EYE are of the slightest avail in stirring DEAD SINNERS. It is not the choir, nor soloist, nor the preacher, but the HOLY SPIRIT that saves us!!!
I'm not offended in any way Major...I'm used to it. The fact that I am Pentecostal does not mean I cannot have a proper perspective. You assume that, based on your bias in misunderstanding who the Holy Spirit is and why He came. Have you received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? This questions ONLY requires a one word answer.

John 6:63, shows Jesus explaining communion to His Apostles. You have not used this verse in proper context

John 3:6, is Jesus explaining the "born again" instruction to Nicodemus. Again you take one verse OUT of context. You need to read what follows, to get Jesus' full explanation in verses 9-15;
“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
Our salvation it dependant on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, and that God draws us. The second advocate, the Holy Spirit was sent for the reason Jesus stated Himself in John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26,
and John 16:7.
 
Nov 13, 2007
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I have never met a person like that. If a person does not express in tongues, the initial reality of the infilling by the Holy Spirit, which the NT clearly indicates is speaking in tongues, then he is not. Just as a person who does not change his ways once saved is not saved. I have never said 'speaking in tongues' is the ONLY evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. I said it is THE initial evidence. Please pay attention.
Stan, you need to get out more. Get on the mission feild and you will be amazed at what is happening. Come to Africa and I will show you many people who have never even heard of tongues, but they heal the sick, cast out demons, preach boldly in power and transform entire communities - just like the 1st Century church.

You stated that a person who does not speak in tongues is not filled with the Holy Spirit - this is judgemental and incorrect (this is one of the major reasons many Christian leave the charasmatic church and go to churches where scripture is correctly applied because they feel judged). Scripture clearly states that anybody who calls Jesus "Lord" does so by the Holy Spirit - that is the evidence. Test some unbelievers, ask them just to declare Jesus is "Lord" - you will be stunned that they physically cant do it.

For the record Simon was converted through the preaching of the word and through the evidence of miracles, not tongues.

Act 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also, and being baptized, he continued with Philip. And seeing miracles and mighty works happening, he was amazed.

Tongues is one of the gifts (again go study 1Cor. 12). Again I will state that there is a pattern of recieving the gifts of tongues straight after recieving the Holy Spirit but nowhere does the bible state that tongues is the initial evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit. I would say faith is the initial sign of recieving the Holy Spirit because without faith nobody can come to God and it is God who gives faith.

I am not going to debate this topic with you anymore, I have stated my case and even though you will not agree all I can do is remind you we are to bring unity to the church and by telling people they are not filled with the Holy Spirit because they cannot speak in tongues, is judgemental and brings division. How would you feel if I told you, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit because you do not have the gifts I do? Paul says we are to seek the greater gifts, not for ourselves but for the edification of other believers. This also implies that the gifts are given when and if the Holy Spirit decides, it is not a once off event but an ongoing "infilling" throughout our lives.

For your info - I can speak in tongues, so I am not debating this from the point of view of somebody who cannot.
 
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Stan, you need to get out more. Get on the mission feild and you will be amazed at what is happening. Come to Africa and I will show you many people who have never even heard of tongues, but they heal the sick, cast out demons, preach boldly in power and transform entire communities - just like the 1st Century church.
So you know all these people personally and can vouch for each one that they have never received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues? You do get around.

You stated that a person who does not speak in tongues is not filled with the Holy Spirit - this is judgemental and incorrect (this is one of the major reasons many Christian leave the charasmatic church and go to churches where scripture is correctly applied because they feel judged). Scripture clearly states that anybody who calls Jesus "Lord" does so by the Holy Spirit - that is the evidence. Test some unbelievers, ask them just to declare Jesus is "Lord" - you will be stunned that they physically cant do it.
Well I've supplied scripture to support my assertions so maybe you can for yours. Seems you have it all figured out in ZA. Every incident of being infilled by the Holy Spirit in Acts shows that the people knew based on the speaking in tongues. This is how they knew, and it was also partly how Paul knew. I'm pretty sure Jesus told us that unbelievers CAN do this. They're called goats. They do a lot of things in Jesus' name but still end up in the fiery lake.

For the record Simon was converted through the preaching of the word and through the evidence of miracles, not tongues.

Act 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also, and being baptized, he continued with Philip. And seeing miracles and mighty works happening, he was amazed.


Well he believed alright but I'm pretty sure he was only converted AFTER Peter & John rebuked him for his offer to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. At least that is what the record of Acts 8 shows. What record were you referring to?
Tongues is one of the gifts (again go study 1Cor. 12). Again I will state that there is a pattern of receiving the gifts of tongues straight after receiving the Holy Spirit but nowhere does the bible state that tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. I would say faith is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit because without faith nobody can come to God and it is God who gives faith.
I assume you believe in the Trinity? The Bible doesn't state that. I assume your believe God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent? The Bible does say that either.

The Bible doesn't STATE it, it shows it by example. Maybe this joke will help you understand; http://www.cleanjoke.com/humor/God-Will-Save-Me.html


I am not going to debate this topic with you anymore, I have stated my case and even though you will not agree all I can do is remind you we are to bring unity to the church and by telling people they are not filled with the Holy Spirit because they cannot speak in tongues, is judgmental and brings division. How would you feel if I told you, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit because you do not have the gifts I do? Paul says we are to seek the greater gifts, not for ourselves but for the edification of other believers. This also implies that the gifts are given when and if the Holy Spirit decides, it is not a once off event but an ongoing "infilling" throughout our lives.
For your info - I can speak in tongues, so I am not debating this from the point of view of somebody who cannot.
Well that of course is your choice. I was like you for many years. I did not believe the "initial evidence" doctrine, even though I experienced it. I finally gave it over to God and He showed me my self righteousness was at the basis of my NOT believing what my own eyes read. Don't debate with me Kevin. talk to God about it. Eventually His Word is ALL that really matters.
God Bless.
 
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So you know all these people personally and can vouch for each one that they have never received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues? You do get around.



Well I've supplied scripture to support my assertions so maybe you can for yours. Seems you have it all figured out in ZA. Every incident of being infilled by the Holy Spirit in Acts shows that the people knew based on the speaking in tongues. This is how they knew, and it was also partly how Paul knew. I'm pretty sure Jesus told us that unbelievers CAN do this. They're called goats. They do a lot of things in Jesus' name but still end up in the fiery lake.



Well he believed alright but I'm pretty sure he was only converted AFTER Peter & John rebuked him for his offer to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. At least that is what the record of Acts 8 shows. What record were you referring to?


I assume you believe in the Trinity? The Bible doesn't state that. I assume your believe God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent? The Bible does say that either.

The Bible doesn't STATE it, it shows it by example. Maybe this joke will help you understand; http://www.cleanjoke.com/humor/God-Will-Save-Me.html




Well that of course is your choice. I was like you for many years. I did not believe the "initial evidence" doctrine, even though I experienced it. I finally gave it over to God and He showed me my self righteousness was at the basis of my NOT believing what my own eyes read. Don't debate with me Kevin. talk to God about it. Eventually His Word is ALL that really matters.
God Bless.
All right Stan - you know best, you got the last word in. Well done. Go in peace.
 
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All right Stan - you know best, you got the last word in. Well done. Go in peace.
Did you actually expect I would NOT respond to your post just because you said you would not debate anymore? Many people say that just to cutoff the thread. I'm not saying you said this to do so, but I don't know you or your habits on this forum. You did keep your word though, you didn't debate me. :)

Oh BTW, GOD knows best.
 
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I'm not offended in any way Major...I'm used to it. The fact that I am Pentecostal does not mean I cannot have a proper perspective. You assume that, based on your bias in misunderstanding who the Holy Spirit is and why He came. Have you received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? This questions ONLY requires a one word answer.

John 6:63, shows Jesus explaining communion to His Apostles. You have not used this verse in proper context

John 3:6, is Jesus explaining the "born again" instruction to Nicodemus. Again you take one verse OUT of context. You need to read what follows, to get Jesus' full explanation in verses 9-15;
“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
Our salvation it dependant on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, and that God draws us. The second advocate, the Holy Spirit was sent for the reason Jesus stated Himself in John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26,
and John 16:7.
Actually it is a TWO word answer Stan. YES and NO.

YES, I received the Holy Spirit when I came to Christ for the forgivness of my sins.

NO to the evidence of speaking in tongues to prove it because that my friend is NOT Biblical but Denominational teaching.

IF you so chose to believe that then Gog bless you my friend. It is your choice BUT it is in no way a Biblical directive.

I am sorry you do not understand John 3:6 but I did give you what the Bible says, NOT WHAT I THINK.

Stan......because you do not agree with me is no reason to say or think that I am out of context or misleading in any way.

Again, I say to you that Jojn 3:6 is Christ continuing to contrast physical birth and spiritual. The FLESH produces FLESH and the SPIRIT produces the SPIRITUAL.

ABSOLUTELY correct when you said..............
"Our salvation it dependant on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, and that God draws us The second advocate, the Holy Spirit was sent for the reason Jesus stated Himself ".

BUT Stan.........that is NOT what you stated already that " the Holy Spirit is NOT a requirement of SALVATION".

Stan.......A sinner canot be saved without the Holy Spirit!!!

You then said to Kevin that he needs to get his thoughts together. STAN........You are all over the spectrum in your theology and I am afraid that you are very wrong in a lot of it.

Personally, having come from Penacostal faith, I can assure you that the conflict you are going through is classic. You have been told this and that and you accepted it as truth. But now you are hearing a differant perspective, one that comes from the Word of God and it it convicting you and causing you to be angry and upset. I HAVE BEEN THERE my friend.

Now as for my understanding of John 6:63. NO, I explained just as it is. It explains clearly what we were talking about BUT again because you jump all over the place you missed it again.

Christ explained that He did NOT intend for them to eat physically of His flesh because that would profit NOTHING ust as I said. Rather it is His SPITRT, The HOLY SPIRIT---3rd Person of the Trinity which gives life. They were not dead but they carried the potential of producing life. Accept what He said and they would have life.

Now when you read verse 64-65 you will see that UNBEKIEF stopped people from coming to Him. They did not acceot His words and consequently they would not draw to Him.
 
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Did you actually expect I would NOT respond to your post just because you said you would not debate anymore? Many people say that just to cutoff the thread. I'm not saying you said this to do so, but I don't know you or your habits on this forum. You did keep your word though, you didn't debate me. :)

Oh BTW, GOD knows best.
Stan........A lot of people do what Kevin did because they see that there is nothing ahead but confrontation and argument and they simply do not want non-believers who may be reading the back and forth to see Christians is such a conflict.
 
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Stan said............
"Don't debate with me Kevin. talk to God about it. Eventually His Word is ALL that really matters."

Just an example of the jumping around going on with thread.

Seems to me that Kevin did exactly as you asked him to do???

As far as His Word is ALL that matters.........really Stan?

1 Corth. 14:18.........
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1 Corth. 14:2.......
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corth 14:9...........
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1 Corth 14:22-23
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corth 14:32....
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

So, is it actually ALL that God said in His Word that we are to follow or is it actually some denominational teaching that we hold onto as truth?????
 
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I would suggest you supply some scriptural support of this statement. It's not what Jesus states in John 14:6



Again, wrong perspective. Jesus clearly points this out in John 6:44

The rest of your post seem to be directed at someone else but it was all messed up.
Stan..........You can not possibly believe that!!!!!

John 14:6 says.......
King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

WHY didn't you quote the other verses that apply to what Jesus said in 14:6????

Maybe if you had spent more time studying all the Scriptures and not just those pertaining to "tongues" you would understand the meaning of John 14:6.

Stan............CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!!!!!

THE WAY............Christ is the only way.
THE TRUTH.......Christ is the embodiment of ALL truth.
THE LIFE............Christ is the life of all men.

Now the context of it all is in verse 16-18....
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

COMFORTER in the Original Greek is "one called alongside to help".
ANOTHER means "one of the same kind".

This tells us that the Comforter would be one of the same quality and character as Christ. The Comforter would be God. Christ would return to heaven to act as our Great High Priest but the Helper who is the Holy Spirit would remain for ever.

This Helper is the Holy Spirit.

John 16:13.....
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The world cannot receive the Spirit. The Holy Spirit hahas a two fold ministry. He would dwell with them to be inb their midst, and He would be IN them as well.

Then the answer to all of this is verse 18........
"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
I WILL COME! Christ would be with them through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and therefore, NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE MINISTRY AND WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!
Jn.14:26 ...................
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Romans 7:4.............
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:5...............
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

We bring forth fruit or childrenfrom the one to whom we are married. We are married to Christ, the fruit is brought forth to God. Therefore, Christ is Lord Jesus Christ or God, Son and Spirit Anointed.
Remember that the Word was God. He laid aside His Godly privileges and became a human being. When He returned to the Spirit realm He "sat down" beside the glory He laid aside to become a man. As Father-Son He could say: "I will send you from the Father." He did not say, "the Father will send without me."

John 14:10...................
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

When The Spirit of truth (mental disposition of the mind of Christ) proceeds from the Father this is identical to Jesus' statement that I will send Him to you:

John 15:26..............
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
Spurgeon stated in a sermon................
"THE COMMENCEMENT OF SALVATION IS THE HOLY SPIRIT'S WORK. Salvation is not begun in the soul by the means of grace apart from the Holy Spirit."

You asked for Bible quotes and there they are. Now, what will you do with them my friend??? Believe them, investigate them, or fall back on your pre-conceived and biased denominational teaching?

As you stated.....the choice is indeed yours.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Stan, you need to get out more. Get on the mission feild and you will be amazed at what is happening. Come to Africa and I will show you many people who have never even heard of tongues, but they heal the sick, cast out demons, preach boldly in power and transform entire communities - just like the 1st Century church.

You stated that a person who does not speak in tongues is not filled with the Holy Spirit - this is judgemental and incorrect (this is one of the major reasons many Christian leave the charasmatic church and go to churches where scripture is correctly applied because they feel judged). Scripture clearly states that anybody who calls Jesus "Lord" does so by the Holy Spirit - that is the evidence. Test some unbelievers, ask them just to declare Jesus is "Lord" - you will be stunned that they physically cant do it.

For the record Simon was converted through the preaching of the word and through the evidence of miracles, not tongues.

Act 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also, and being baptized, he continued with Philip. And seeing miracles and mighty works happening, he was amazed.

Tongues is one of the gifts (again go study 1Cor. 12). Again I will state that there is a pattern of recieving the gifts of tongues straight after recieving the Holy Spirit but nowhere does the bible state that tongues is the initial evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit. I would say faith is the initial sign of recieving the Holy Spirit because without faith nobody can come to God and it is God who gives faith.

I am not going to debate this topic with you anymore, I have stated my case and even though you will not agree all I can do is remind you we are to bring unity to the church and by telling people they are not filled with the Holy Spirit because they cannot speak in tongues, is judgemental and brings division. How would you feel if I told you, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit because you do not have the gifts I do? Paul says we are to seek the greater gifts, not for ourselves but for the edification of other believers. This also implies that the gifts are given when and if the Holy Spirit decides, it is not a once off event but an ongoing "infilling" throughout our lives.

For your info - I can speak in tongues, so I am not debating this from the point of view of somebody who cannot.
Did you actually expect I would NOT respond to your post just because you said you would not debate anymore? Many people say that just to cutoff the thread. I'm not saying you said this to do so, but I don't know you or your habits on this forum. You did keep your word though, you didn't debate me. :)

Oh BTW, GOD knows best.
I will be your daisey Stan............

Mark 16:14-18..........
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Penacostals have taken these verses to mean that THEY have these gifts as well as did the original 11.
That is another debate altogether but for our purpose here to debate..................
You have claimed as evidence of your salvation the ability to speak in tongues.

Now if you will take the time to study the verses I posted, read the Greek, grasp the context and you will see that those gifts are a "PACKAGE deal" given for the protection of the apostles as they went throughout the world spreading the gospel. No had just ONE, but all 11 had all of them.

So, For the sack of conversation lets assume that you to have that package of gifts. NOW, according the Word of God if you have ONE you must have ALL of them.

So, can you post evidence of you................
1. Speaking in tongues.
2. Casting out devils.
3. Handeling rattle snakes with out being effected..
4. Drinking polluted water without harm.
5. Laid hands on the sick and healed them.

Now.........#1, #2, and #5 will be and are uselly the ones accepted simply becasue they are the ones that can be manipulated by man.

BUT..........what is the evidence you can produce whereby #3 and 4 have been experienced so as to conform to the WORD of God and ALL of its meaning as you posted in comment #70.......................
" Don't debate with me Kevin. talk to God about it. Eventually His Word is ALL that really matters."
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Stan........A lot of people do what Kevin did because they see that there is nothing ahead but confrontation and argument and they simply do not want non-believers who may be reading the back and forth to see Christians is such a conflict.
But apparently Major, NOT you. Even when it is not directed at you, you take up the fight. I just left another thread because of your stytle of controntation. Is it your intention to bully me into leaving every thread I am on? Maybe I'll just report this to the admin.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Stan said............
"Don't debate with me Kevin. talk to God about it. Eventually His Word is ALL that really matters."

Just an example of the jumping around going on with thread.

Seems to me that Kevin did exactly as you asked him to do???

As far as His Word is ALL that matters.........really Stan?

1 Corth. 14:18.........
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1 Corth. 14:2.......
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corth 14:9...........
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1 Corth 14:22-23
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corth 14:32....
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

So, is it actually ALL that God said in His Word that we are to follow or is it actually some denominational teaching that we hold onto as truth?????

Do you have something relative to the OP Major. I'm not picking up my discussions I had with Kevin, with you.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Stan..........You can not possibly believe that!!!!!
Based on what you quoted Major, of course I do. I doubt you are as incredulous as you make yourself out to be with all the punctuation.


John 14:6 says.......
King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

WHY didn't you quote the other verses that apply to what Jesus said in 14:6????
Obviously, because in context, John 14:6 dealt with your statement.
Major said:
WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IN MAN, MAN CANNOT BE SAVED!!!!
These men were ALREADY saved Major.

Maybe if you had spent more time studying all the Scriptures and not just those pertaining to "tongues" you would understand the meaning of John 14:6.
LOL...you really envy my faith that much Major, that you want to make fun of it all the time?

Stan............CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!!!!!
THE WAY............Christ is the only way.
THE TRUTH.......Christ is the embodiment of ALL truth.
THE LIFE............Christ is the life of all men.
Christ was a comforter, and until He left, God could not send another, which was and is the Holy Spirit.



Now the context of it all is in verse 16-18....
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
The context of verse 16, is verse 17. The context of verse 18 states it clearly; I will not abandon you as orphans, I will come back to you. (MOUNCE) Not quite the same thing aye Major?
Jesus repeats Himself again in 26-28, which IS in context and which you didn't provide;
But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will instruct you regarding all things, and cause you to remember everything that I have told you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I give to you not as the world gives. Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come back to you.’
This is the promise of Jesus' second coming, NOT His coming as another manifestation of God. Now I am incredulous.


COMFORTER in the Original Greek is "one called alongside to help".
ANOTHER means "one of the same kind".
This tells us that the Comforter would be one of the same quality and character as Christ. The Comforter would be God. Christ would return to heaven to act as our Great High Priest but the Helper who is the Holy Spirit would remain for ever.
Nice assertion there Major. Another, is ANOTHER. The Greek word is allos, "another like Himself," NOT HIMSELF.
Vine's makes this pretty clear if you would have bothered to read it.

I've addressed enough of your onerous response Major, this is getting way off topic as usual.
 
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