New Birth, Not Religion

[Major]

I'm reposting here something I previously posted on another thread because it is relevant to this discussion.

One must put the James passage into it's context to get a proper understanding of the teaching of that verse. Abraham had been justified by faith many years before the time that he offered up Isaac.

Genesis 15:5, 6
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul comments upon this in Romans 4:2-5,

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified entirely by faith, without the addition of works according to Paul. Paul goes on to explain that if it is by faith, then it cannot involve works in any way. Romans 11:6 says,

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace and works cannot coexist as regards salvation. It is either one or the other. This fact has brought about confusion as regarding the teaching of James. It appears to many that Paul and James contradict each other. But this is not the case.

James is speaking of a different portion of Abraham's life than Paul. James is speaking of that instance wherein Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

James 2:20-24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul is speaking of a time many years earlier when Abraham received the promise from God for a son, and believed it. This faith justified Abraham according to Paul. James is speaking of a day many years later when Abraham was called upon to offer the son God had promised. Think about what that entailed. God had promised Abraham a multitude of descendants through Isaac. If he killed him before he could start a family, then how could God fulfill the promise? So Abraham's act of offering, or 'work' was a visible demonstration of the reality of Abraham's faith. Hebrews 11:17-19 says,

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Do you see that Abraham's actions proved the reality of the faith that justified him? Had he not have had such strong faith in God's promises, he would not have offered his son. The 'work' was a natural conclusion of the faith. In other words, if someone has true faith, they will act upon that faith. Faith that does not spur one to act upon it is not faith at all.

So, Abraham's faith in God's promise justified him before God, while Abraham's act of offering Isaac justified Abraham before men, in proving that his faith was real. Notice that this is the context in which James speaks, showing one's faith to be real before men. James 2:18,

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The lesson here is that saving faith will spur someone to do good works. If a person's faith does not spur one to action, then one cannot say that they really have faith. A person only acts upon what he really believes. So faith in Christ alone saves us, and that faith will spur us unto good works. Good works are the fruit of saving faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice here that works plays no part in our salvation, but we are saved unto good works, that our faith should produce a walk. So the idea contained in James and Paul is that you are justified by faith alone, but saving faith will spur you to good works.

I remember you posting this and it is just as realavent now as ever!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I feel as tho you are in error in that you fail to see the importance of offering a free salvation to the lost.

Not at all. This is one of the most important things we are called to do on earth.

James's use of works was not part of the Gospel message of Paul and should not be part of your gospel message either. It is to be taught to those who are already saved and that only due to carnality in believers lives, it is not in any way the gospel it is separate from the gospel. I do not deny that works will follow salvation but in some cases those works will only be seen by God and not by us due to the ability for the born again person to backslide.

Like you said, James and Paul were not contradicting one another--they were perfectly in sync with one another.

I'm having trouble understanding that second part you wrote. It could be that we both are misunderstanding what "works" means. Could you clarify that second part?

 

[Major]

I feel as tho you are in error in that you fail to see the importance of offering a free salvation to the lost. James's use of works was not part of the Gospel message of Paul and should not be part of your gospel message either. It is to be taught to those who are already saved and that only due to carnality in believers lives, it is not in any way the gospel it is separate from the gospel. I do not deny that works will follow salvation but in some cases those works will only be seen by God and not by us due to the ability for the born again person to backslide.

I may be wrong here, but it seems to me that you both are saying the same thing.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I may be wrong here, but it seems to me that you both are saying the same thing.

Haha, there's definitely a huge overlap at the very least.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Actually, regarding your statement again, Intojoy, I think I picked up on what you meant.

I think I'm going to disagree with you. The first thing commanded to the unsaved is to 1) repent, and 2) be baptized (Acts 2:38). This is a great illustration of where faith and works go hand-in-hand, including among those that are not yet saved.

Hopefully I read your comment right. It's quite possible that I still misread it

 

[Intojoy]

Not at all. This is one of the most important things we are called to do on earth.



Like you said, James and Paul were not contradicting one another--they were perfectly in sync with one another.

I'm having trouble understanding that second part you wrote. It could be that we both are misunderstanding what "works" means. Could you clarify that second part?

Obedience to the Law of Christ which is not just loving each other and God. The law of Christ includes everything commanded by the Apostles in the New Testament including James's commandments concerning respect of persons, helping the poor etc. The Laws of Christ, The Laws of Liberty, New Testament Laws are not optional, they are commandments. If one possesses true salvation his life will produce obedience to these commandments even if other Christians cannot see them. Sometimes only God will be able to see the works (obedience to NT Law) because some believers can live in a state of carnality and appear on the outside as unbelievers.

To clarify my point, the gospel message is given to those who are lost, those lost individuals cannot discern the truth of scripture but because of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit they can understand and put their faith in the gospel. There is no human element to salvation period. By including works as a part of justification in the giving of the gospel message you are perverting the gospel and offering a salvation that is dependent upon human evidence, human proof that one believes. That is not part of the gospel message and that is why Paul leaves it out. I clearly understand your point, I question your motivation. Why do you feel compelled to add works into the salvation presentation when Paul nor Messiah himself did? James is not talking about salvation he is talking about applying ourselves as saved people to obey the demands of scripture. Your comments magnify man's works. That's okay in a church setting but its not ok in evangelism. We are to clearly emphasize that salvation is not by works but by grace with no works. If we are not careful to emphasize grace alone apart from works we are preaching a different gospel.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Obedience to the Law of Christ which is not just loving each other and God. The law of Christ includes everything commanded by the Apostles in the New Testament including James's commandments concerning respect of persons, helping the poor etc. The Laws of Christ, The Laws of Liberty, New Testament Laws are not optional, they are commandments. If one possesses true salvation his life will produce obedience to these commandments even if other Christians cannot see them. Sometimes only God will be able to see the works (obedience to NT Law) because some believers can live in a state of carnality and appear on the outside as unbelievers.

To clarify my point, the gospel message is given to those who are lost, those lost individuals cannot discern the truth of scripture but because of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit they can understand and put their faith in the gospel. There is no human element to salvation period. By including works as a part of justification in the giving of the gospel message you are perverting the gospel and offering a salvation that is dependent upon human evidence, human proof that one believes. That is not part of the gospel message and that is why Paul leaves it out. I clearly understand your point, I question your motivation. Why do you feel compelled to add works into the salvation presentation when Paul nor Messiah himself did? James is not talking about salvation he is talking about applying ourselves as saved people to obey the demands of scripture. Your comments magnify man's works. That's okay in a church setting but its not ok in evangelism. We are to clearly emphasize that salvation is not by works but by grace with no works. If we are not careful to emphasize grace alone apart from works we are preaching a different gospel.

It looks like we probably agree. For those of us who are already saved, we are to not push aside the commandments we have been given. And for those who are not yet saved, we are to minister the gospel of grace. When asked how does one receive grace, it is to repent and be baptized.

 

[Mr. Darby]

Water baptism is not a part of salvation, it is an image of the reality. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ when we believe. Relying on a rite such as Baptism is one of the reasons for the title of the article. No religious rites, even those instituted by God, will contribute anything to salvation.

 

[Intojoy]

Water baptism is not a part of salvation, it is an image of the reality. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ when we believe. Relying on a rite such as Baptism is one of the reasons for the title of the article. No religious rites, even those instituted by God, will contribute anything to salvation.

Yes. Furthermore "repentance" in the context of the gospel is a synonym for "faith".

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Water baptism is not a part of salvation, it is an image of the reality. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ when we believe. Relying on a rite such as Baptism is one of the reasons for the title of the article. No religious rites, even those instituted by God, will contribute anything to salvation.

Baptism is the first commandment of the saved. 1) repent. 2) be baptized.

Acts 2:38: "Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 3:11: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mighterier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Yes. Furthermore "repentance" in the context of the gospel is a synonym for "faith".

Indeed.

 

[Mr. Darby]

Baptism is the first commandment of the saved. 1) repent. 2) be baptized.

Acts 2:38: "Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 3:11: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mighterier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

I have certainly replied to this argument through the years many times. The idea of Baptismal regeneration can be gotten from Acts 2:38, but the verse has to be isolated from it's context to teach that. Let us set the verse in it's context.

1.) Peter was preaching to Jews concerning their rejection of Christ in Acts 2.

Acts 2:36

'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

They had crucified their Messiah, whom God had exalted. The next verse tells us that many Jews were convicted by this.

2.) The Jews asked what they should do in light of the fact that they had just killed the Messiah. Notice THEY DID NOT ASK HOW TO BE 'SAVED'.

Acts 2:37

'Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?'

3.) They were told to be Baptized, but not in order to be saved.

Acts 2:38

'Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'

The word 'saved' does not appear in the verse. But someone will say, 'Was it not for remission of sins?' Israel's sin of rejecting Christ had been remitted on the cross when Jesus asked the Father to forgive them for crucifying him. Their Baptism was to be after the fact of the remitted sin of crucifying Jesus which is the topic of the passage. In this sense 'for' does not mean in order that sin be forgiven, but because sin has already been forgiven. To illustrate, it is like saying that someone has been sent to jail for stealing. Was he sent to jail in order that stealing may occur, or because stealing has already occurred? So how do I know that that is the sense of it in Acts 2:38? Because in Acts 10, the centurion was demonstrably saved BEFORE he was baptized.

Acts 10

'43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.'

Note that in verse 43, Peter says remission of sin will occur as a result of belief. He says nothing about Baptism being a part of salvation. While Peter is still speaking, and before they are baptized, Cornelius and his household are speaking in tongues just like the Apostles did on the day of Pentecost. When Peter saw this, he realized that they had been saved just as he was, and they were baptized because they were already saved by belief. Peter comments upon these events in Acts 15:

'7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.'

Note that Peter testifies that the giving of the Holy Ghost was evidence that they were saved, and that their hearts had been purified by faith. Baptism isn't in the picture. It is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that puts a man into Christ. I Corinthians 12:13:

'13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.'

This is the baptism of the Holy Ghost predicted by John the Baptist, and contrasted to water baptism. I will not discuss John's Baptism extensively since it was an OT thing and doesn't relate to you and I. Christ had not died yet, and according to Hebrews a covenant is not in effect until the death of the testator. Suffice it to say that John's Baptism did not impart the new birth to those who received it. Remember that in Acts 19, disciples of John who had received his baptism were not saved until they actually believed on Jesus Christ.

And note that when the jailor asked directly about how to be saved, he was told that it was by belief. Nothing else was mention.

Acts 16:

'29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.'

This matches Cornelius.

I know this post is long, and I may add more to this on another post later.

 

[Major]

I have certainly replied to this argument through the years many times. The idea of Baptismal regeneration can be gotten from Acts 2:38, but the verse has to be isolated from it's context to teach that. Let us set the verse in it's context.

1.) Peter was preaching to Jews concerning their rejection of Christ in Acts 2.

Acts 2:36

'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

They had crucified their Messiah, whom God had exalted. The next verse tells us that many Jews were convicted by this.

2.) The Jews asked what they should do in light of the fact that they had just killed the Messiah. Notice THEY DID NOT ASK HOW TO BE 'SAVED'.

Acts 2:37

'Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?'

3.) They were told to be Baptized, but not in order to be saved.

Acts 2:38

'Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'

The word 'saved' does not appear in the verse. But someone will say, 'Was it not for remission of sins?' Israel's sin of rejecting Christ had been remitted on the cross when Jesus asked the Father to forgive them for crucifying him. Their Baptism was to be after the fact of the remitted sin of crucifying Jesus which is the topic of the passage. In this sense 'for' does not mean in order that sin be forgiven, but because sin has already been forgiven. To illustrate, it is like saying that someone has been sent to jail for stealing. Was he sent to jail in order that stealing may occur, or because stealing has already occurred? So how do I know that that is the sense of it in Acts 2:38? Because in Acts 10, the centurion was demonstrably saved BEFORE he was baptized.

Acts 10

'43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.'

Note that in verse 43, Peter says remission of sin will occur as a result of belief. He says nothing about Baptism being a part of salvation. While Peter is still speaking, and before they are baptized, Cornelius and his household are speaking in tongues just like the Apostles did on the day of Pentecost. When Peter saw this, he realized that they had been saved just as he was, and they were baptized because they were already saved by belief. Peter comments upon these events in Acts 15:

'7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.'

Note that Peter testifies that the giving of the Holy Ghost was evidence that they were saved, and that their hearts had been purified by faith. Baptism isn't in the picture. It is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost that puts a man into Christ. I Corinthians 12:13:

'13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.'

This is the baptism of the Holy Ghost predicted by John the Baptist, and contrasted to water baptism. I will not discuss John's Baptism extensively since it was an OT thing and doesn't relate to you and I. Christ had not died yet, and according to Hebrews a covenant is not in effect until the death of the testator. Suffice it to say that John's Baptism did not impart the new birth to those who received it. Remember that in Acts 19, disciples of John who had received his baptism were not saved until they actually believed on Jesus Christ.

And note that when the jailor asked directly about how to be saved, he was told that it was by belief. Nothing else was mention.

Acts 16:

'29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.'

This matches Cornelius.

I know this post is long, and I may add more to this on another post later.

Excellent exergesis!!!

Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Major]

Baptism is the first commandment of the saved. 1) repent. 2) be baptized.

Acts 2:38: "Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Matthew 3:11: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mighterier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Not so my brother.

In almost every case, what people believe about baptism was determined by their religious heritage.

Baptism should be a part of every believers salvation experience but it is not a requirement for salvation.

Water baptism is about publicly identifying with Christ. It is an act of obedience and is an outward expression of an inward decision to follow Christ and what He lived and died for.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Not so my brother.

In almost every case, what people believe about baptism was determined by their religious heritage.

Baptism should be a part of every believers salvation experience but it is not a requirement for salvation.

Water baptism is about publicly identifying with Christ. It is an act of obedience and is an outward expression of an inward decision to follow Christ and what He lived and died for.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

Indeed, baptism itself doesn't grant salvation, but according to John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-12, Mark 16:16, baptism is a very crucial part of salvation.

The early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

Martin Luther himself wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted"

The scriptures don't teach that baptism is about proclamation of faith. Though you are right that it is an act of obedience. But the baptism of Christ was a perfect example of how important it is. To claim it's really nothing is dangerous as it's going against the Word of God.

 

[Major]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

Indeed, baptism itself doesn't grant salvation, but according to John 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-12, Mark 16:16, baptism is a very crucial part of salvation.

The early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

Martin Luther himself wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted"

The scriptures don't teach that baptism is about proclamation of faith. Though you are right that it is an act of obedience. But the baptism of Christ was a perfect example of how important it is. To claim it's really nothing is dangerous as it's going against the Word of God.

Hey there my brother. Quick as always.

Listen man, it is absolutely OK to disagree with me. Don't ever think that I am the last word on any thing. It is never a problem to disagree, my only problem is HOW we disagree. As long as it is done in love and friendship........
Hey, that is what life is all about isn't it.

You see, a religious ceremony is a set of activities or forms peformed by someone. In the Bible, circumcision was a ceremony where one person performed a religious rite on another person. Likewise, baptism is also a ceremony where one person performs a religious rite on another person. But, we are saved by faith alone and anything else we do, including ceremonies, will not help.

If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe, not when we get baptized, otherwise we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died. This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary.

I can tell you that I have seen many men come to Christ on the battlefield, no water to baptize them and then they lost their life in battle. My dear brother, please believe me when I tell you that those wonderful men were saved and went to heaven.

I was also a witness to a young couple many years ago who came to Christ at a service, They both accepted Him as Lord and Savior. On the way home, they were involved in a car wreck and both were killed. Do we really think that they did not go to heaven because they were not wet???

Paul said to the Phillipian jailer............."BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved".

You are very correct in what the Nicene Creed states, that creed is confessed by the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, as well as Reformed churches.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Hey there my brother. Quick as always.

Listen man, it is absolutely OK to disagree with me. Don't ever think that I am the last word on any thing. It is never a problem to disagree, my only problem is HOW we disagree. As long as it is done in love and friendship........
Hey, that is what life is all about isn't it.

I can tell you that I have seen many men come to Christ on the battlefield, no water to baptize them and then they lost their life in battle. My dear brother, please believe me when I tell you that those wonderful men were saved and went to heaven.

I was also a witness to a young couple many years ago who came to Christ at a service, They both accepted Him as Lord and Savior. On the way home, they were involved in a car wreck and both were killed. Do we really think that they did not go to heaven because they were not wet???

Paul said to the Phillipian jailer............."BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved".

You are very correct in what the Nicene Creed states, that creed is confessed by the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, as well as Reformed churches.

Indeed--my disagreement isn't spiteful. Actually, you're one of my favorites here, so I especially wouldn't act that way toward you

Keep in mind that this doesn't necessarily mean that if you haven't been baptized then you are automatically damned to hell. The Catholic response for this, as the Catechism tells us, God can work outside of His sacraments for those who love Him. However, when the opportunity arises, one should be baptized as soon a possible. Baptism, according to the Catholic Church, isn't limited to it being done by a priest. In fact, baptisms outside of Catholicism are just as qualified provided they involve water and having it done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I was baptized as a Protestant when I was 13, but the Church recognized it as valid.

I could also go further into the role of purgatory, but I know you don't subscribe to that belief, so I'll leave that aside.

I certainly hope your friends have made it to heaven (God rest their souls)--and I wouldn't for a moment be shocked if they have made it. Just as I wouldn't believe that infants who haven't been baptized go to hell.

 

[Major]

Indeed--my disagreement isn't spiteful. Actually, you're one of my favorites here, so I especially wouldn't act that way toward you

Keep in mind that this doesn't necessarily mean that if you haven't been baptized then you are automatically damned to hell. The Catholic response for this, as the Catechism tells us, God can work outside of His sacraments for those who love Him. However, when the opportunity arises, one should be baptized as soon a possible. Baptism, according to the Catholic Church, isn't limited to it being done by a priest. In fact, baptisms outside of Catholicism are just as qualified provided they involve water and having it done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I was baptized as a Protestant when I was 13, but the Church recognized it as valid.

I could also go further into the role of purgatory, but I know you don't subscribe to that belief, so I'll leave that aside.

I certainly hope your friends have made it to heaven (God rest their souls)--and I wouldn't for a moment be shocked if they have made it. Just as I wouldn't believe that infants who haven't been baptized go to hell.

I in fact do agree with you and said as much in comment #43................
"Baptism should be a part of every believers salvation experience but it is not a requirement for salvation."

When we get to heaven, you and me, I am going to find you and introduce you to some fine Christian men who came to Christ and were saved, but died the very next day. Then we all are going over to the couples house I told you about who died in that car wreck and have supper with them. That is a promise my brother!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I in fact do agree with you and said as much in comment #43................
"Baptism should be a part of every believers salvation experience but it is not a requirement for salvation."

When we get to heaven, you and me, I am going to find you and introduce you to some fine Christian men who came to Christ and were saved, but died the very next day. Then we all are going over to the couples house I told you about who died in that car wreck and have supper with them. That is a promise my brother!

I am going to hold you to that.

 

[JustPassingThru]

LS, maybe the problem of misunderstanding is your use of the word "justification," what I'm reading is you are saying a man is justified by his works, I don't believe that is what you mean, because you know the Word, ...Paul teaches we are justified by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, to be even more precise, we are justified by the blood of Jesus when He poured it on the alter in Heaven that stands before His Father, and it was a one time event, never to be repeated, John 20:17

For the life of the flesh is in the blood. And I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11

We are saved by Grace through faith, and that faith to believe is given to us by the Father (the size of a grain of mustard seed), what James is talking about is our works of faith, after we are born again, prove we are born of God, to build upon the faith He gave us and to build up and enlarge our faith, hence, the just live by faith.

Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Rom 10:17

So to do a work we must hear from the Word what we are to do and step out in faith, if we do a work that isn't of faith, something He hasn't told us to do then it is sin, Rom 14:23 In my life He told me to go to Tahiti, there can be any number of things Father can/will tell us to do, from the supposed spectacular to the supposed menial, but, the authenticity of our faith is Father will do the work for us, He will provide whatever we need to accomplish what He has told us to do, without us asking for help from our brothers or sisters.

Blessings,

Gene