On Richness and Poverty

I once cleaned house for a lady in Remeura. Obviously she was very well off, but I felt sorry for her cos her husband left her. She had a big house and no husband and her children were leaving. :-(
another lady, had a huge mansion but since they were getting old they couldn't look after it and her children didn't want it, so they had to sell it but nobody would buy it. It was like worth at least a million dollars. But...nobody wanted it. So they were stuck in this big house requiring them to maintain it all the time. She was a christian, but her husband loved money.
 
Lanolin said:
I never really thought about the different 'classes' or caste systems we have as humans till I became an adult and people started judging you on how much money you earned.

Children don't care bout these things generally. All they know is, their parents love them and look after them. And give them everything. They don't have to earn it. And it doesn't matter material things, the most important thing above all else is they are given love. That is priceless.
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Yea those care - free times of youth.
 
Lanolin said:
I never really thought about the different 'classes' or caste systems we have as humans till I became an adult and people started judging you on how much money you earned.

Children don't care bout these things generally. All they know is, their parents love them and look after them. And give them everything. They don't have to earn it. And it doesn't matter material things, the most important thing above all else is they are given love. That is priceless.
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Matthew 7:11 (KJV)
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
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God is so great! Totally awesome! Praise be to God!
 
Lanolin said:
The world thinks of money...people are 'consumers' not even people, just economic units.

They don't see people with souls..they see people with a price on their heads.
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...Or the color of the paper in their wallets.

I do not think us normal folk have an idea of what is going on out there in terms of those living for the love of money.
Yes, we can understand the theft and murder associated with that statement... it's daily over here, but the flip side is, the deceit and manipulation happening to get the money from others that have it for self-purpose.
 
Well, there's ordinary robbers and thieves and then there's white collar criminals that fleece people.
Most of those don't even get reported to the serious fraud office cos they are inside jobs. (like Judas).
 
Abdicate said:
Matthew 7:11 (KJV)
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
​
God is so great! Totally awesome! Praise be to God!
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Amen, praise be to God too...for knowing that good gifts are not gifts that boost vanity and will cause us to stumble / support our stumbling.
 
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Here is my opinion regarding ethical ownership of property

There are only four applications for natural ownership on earth
  • An individual owns a thing (ethics) – ethics from Natural Rights Theory from Genesis
  • An individual owns what is not his or hers (slavery or theft)
  • A group of individuals owns a thing in common that is not theirs using compulsion (mass slavery or mass theft) – the communist model of violence from Marx, Lenin and Stalin
  • Nobody owns things – (lawless anarchy) – Survival of the fittest in the throes of violence

Let us question ethically
Is it immoral to manufacture a car?
Is it immoral to manufacture an efficient car?
Is it immoral to manufacture a highly tuned efficient sports car?
Is manufacturing a thing immoral?
Is owning a thing manufactured immoral?
Is owning an efficient thing immoral?
Is owning an valuable thing immoral?

According to Natural Rights Theory from Genesis, all these answers are “no.”

According to the Covenant of Salvation (NT) is yes “if” God told you personally not to; for all of these things are not scripturally prohibited, yet they are all prohibited if God gives you the order to personally refrain.

Thus owning nice things by precedent is "not" a sin.
Thus owning much by precedent is "not" a sin.
Thus owning in of itself by precedent is "not" a sin.

However
Is it immoral to have a car by means of violence to another person?
Is it immoral to have a car by means of violence to another person's property?
Is it immoral to have a car by means of deceit or fraud?

According to Natural Rights Theory from Geneses, all of these answers are “yes.”

According to the Covenant of Salvation (NT) is also “yes” since our contract/covenant of salvation is not in conflict with Natural Rights Theory from Genesis.

Thus by precedent violence to person and property is “always” immoral

However again - in the absence of violence to person or property
Is it immoral to be driven by “lust” to possess a car?
Is it immoral to desire ownership of a car to the point where it causes one to disobey God?
Is it immoral to desire ownership of a car to the point where it causes one to neglect God?
Is it immoral to own a car when God tells you personally not to own it?
Is it immoral to love a car in order to obtain prestige, and glory?
Is it immoral to love a car more than God, family or the lost?
Is it immoral to heap up property beyond usable limits, and ignore those in need?

According to the Covenant of Salvation (NT) the answer is always “yes.”

Yet according to Natural Rights Theory from Geneses, all these answers remain a “no,” because this first Unilateral Contract from God deals with “justice only” and not “ ambiguous or personal sin” that may materialize by disobedience in our covenant of Salvation. Therefore a crime is not the same thing as a sin; crime is always a sin, but sin is not always a crime.

Thus a final statement for a conclusion: a nice car is not a sin for a Christian to own if no measures of violence was utilized against person or property, also providing that God has not “personally” prohibited you to own one, and also providing that ownership does not violate the contract/covenant of Salvation which forbids lust, uncontrollable desire, pursuit's of glory, or negligence to His calling.
 
KingJ said:
Modesty = modesty. We can all learn from the pope on this!
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Would you agree with me that "modesty for ownership" is not mandated by a deontological code in scripture?

I will contend that scripture will require modesty but without the calibrations of property values or amounts, and will instead commission each individual to resolve to ethical motivations which materialize to individual measures primarily unknown to another. Thus we use His leadership and wisdom to work out what is His will on many levels and must refrain from rigid conformations of restraint when dealing with another persons ownership; for I am not worthy, nor capable to detail your constraints for what or how much you own.

Is it possible that our only critique can be to challenge for ministry excellence and spiritual obedience for what is honestly owned; for if a poor man or a rich man is motivated for an evil gain then their motivations are evil. Let us challenge against all evil intentions; for only God can judge the heart, a man or woman's life, what they have accomplished, their intentions, what they own and what they intend to do with their life and property.

Property ownership is Gods ethical design, and many in scripture have owned much with Gods appointment and approval.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
When I get my 150 million here is how it will break down.
Tithe off of the entire 150 million
Pay the tax's on the 150 million
What ever is left will be divided as such.
2 or 3 million in bank for me and the rest sown into the ministries God leads me to sow into.

Now with my 2 or 3 million I would pay off all of my bills and families bills and some friends who are struggling. I would have a very blessed time helping anyone the Father brought into my path to help and place a nice chunk of it away for living and ministry. Oh and I wont buy a Ferrari for they are to slow. rofl....More like a white fusion for a very special friend and the truck of my choice. Probably in the early to mid 70's because that is what I like and enjoy.

It is easy to say what you would give when it is big numbers and you do not have it yet but if you can tithe and seed when you are collecting bottles and cans from dumpsters for 10 cents on the can, well you can tithe and seed in any income level.
God Bless
Jim
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You would be most generous with your 150 million, Fish Catcher Jim
 
Great Fiction said:
You would be most generous with your 150 million, Fish Catcher Jim
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Brother Great Fiction when you come from a food card and digging in dumpsters for bottles and cans and shoes and clothes and so forth just to make ends meet, Well you do not forget where you came from and who it was that Got you out of it and itno the place you are now.

It is all His. If He gives me a new car, it's mine to use and take care of but it is still His and when He says give this car to so and so all I can say is Yes sir and praise God for someone is getting a new to them car and stay in joy and love. I mean perhaps the next one will be a TRUCK ! lol

I enjoy giving - I have more fun giving then most people do in their favorite activity.
Blessings
Jim
 
If you good steward of what youve been given, God sees that. Some people are born in high positions, some in low..theres nothing much you can do in many societies to improve your lot. It is not that matters anyway, it is your character, not the amount of monetary wealth you have.

I have known wealthy people who are extremely stingy, and poor people who are the soul of genorosity.

I have also known poor people who ate extememly envious of rich people, are spendthrifts, and wealthy people who give most of their money away in secret. (They may tell me, but they dont make a big show of it...like they will say I need to give to so and so...God had laid this on my heart etc)
 
Sometimes poor people are bitter and refuse charity...but then theres those who are poor who are grateful for others genorosity. Even though it is more blessed to give than to recieve, its not wrong to be open to receive either. If you do recieve something, recieve with thanksgiving.

I have seen a huge gap between rich and poor widen in my country. Theres scriputre in the bible about giving to the poor so there is equality.

I have heard some people twist it round to mean the poor people meant to give to the rich so they can spend it on themselves. Um no! It saddens me that some money grubbers will even use Jesus name to fleece their flocks, like Judas did. That is not on. Judas could hve just asked Jesus for the money if he needed it, he didnt need to steal it. Another thing ive heard is people who claim they collecting for charity but they arent. Elderly folk are easily taken in by those scammers.
 
Great Fiction said:
1. Would you agree with me that "modesty for ownership" is not mandated by a deontological code in scripture?

2. I will contend that scripture will require modesty but without the calibrations of property values or amounts, and will instead commission each individual to resolve to ethical motivations which materialize to individual measures primarily unknown to another. Thus we use His leadership and wisdom to work out what is His will on many levels and must refrain from rigid conformations of restraint when dealing with another persons ownership; for I am not worthy, nor capable to detail your constraints for what or how much you own.

3. Is it possible that our only critique can be to challenge for ministry excellence and spiritual obedience for what is honestly owned; for if a poor man or a rich man is motivated for an evil gain then their motivations are evil. Let us challenge against all evil intentions; for only God can judge the heart, a man or woman's life, what they have accomplished, their intentions, what they own and what they intend to do with their life and property.

Property ownership is Gods ethical design, and many in scripture have owned much with Gods appointment and approval.
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1. No
2. A rich and poor man pay the same price for a loaf of bread. We don't need spiritual insight when we have a working brain that can do simple math. I am not talking about owning much. Most times we are rich because we are wise with money. That is good. My gripe is with vanity and abusing a gift of money / making money.

Abraham and Job were entrusted with much wealth after their trials because God '''could'' entrust them with much wealth. If they spent their wealth on chariots that stood out among others / boosted vanity...would you say God could entrust them with wealth? I am willing to bet that both Abraham and Job invested and would give / spend on others before their vanity.

3. ''Only God can judge the heart''. Scripture? God does judge the heart Jer 17:10, amen. But it is not hard for us to do likewise should we see a pastor driving his Ferrari...:giggle:.
 
Great Fiction said:
Thus a final statement for a conclusion: a nice car is not a sin for a Christian to own if no measures of violence was utilized against person or property, also providing that God has not “personally” prohibited you to own one, and also providing that ownership does not violate the contract/covenant of Salvation which forbids lust, uncontrollable desire, pursuit's of glory, or negligence to His calling.
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Good post GF. I agree.

Most Ferrari drivers fall into the underlined. Meaning a Christian owning one has to be testing it or own Ferrari.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
It is all His. If He gives me a new car, it's mine to use and take care of but it is still His and when He says give this car to so and so all I can say is Yes sir and praise God for someone is getting a new to them car and stay in joy and love. I mean perhaps the next one will be a TRUCK ! lol
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So, if God gave you a Ferrari you would keep it / drive it....until He told you to give it away?

I would never trust such a voice from heaven when God knows and I know that He gave me a working brain. We can use it to sell the car and invest the money wisely.
 
KingJ said:
So, if God gave you a Ferrari you would keep it / drive it....until He told you to give it away?

I would never trust such a voice from heaven when God knows and I know that He gave me a working brain. We can use it to sell the car and invest the money wisely.
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See Kj that is why you do not ever have to worry about God giving you one. You think to much. lol See it is better to listen to Him then to think you know it all and can do better.
CyaL8r Brother
 
KingJ said:
1. No
2. A rich and poor man pay the same price for a loaf of bread. We don't need spiritual insight when we have a working brain that can do simple math. I am not talking about owning much. Most times we are rich because we are wise with money. That is good. My gripe is with vanity and abusing a gift of money / making money.

Abraham and Job were entrusted with much wealth after their trials because God '''could'' entrust them with much wealth. If they spent their wealth on chariots that stood out among others / boosted vanity...would you say God could entrust them with wealth? I am willing to bet that both Abraham and Job invested and would give / spend on others before their vanity.

3. ''Only God can judge the heart''. Scripture? God does judge the heart Jer 17:10, amen. But it is not hard for us to do likewise should we see a pastor driving his Ferrari...:giggle:.
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KJ Judgre your own heart and you will do good - judge others and you fall under bigger judgment.......Why is this so hard to grasp ?
 
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