On Richness and Poverty

Euphemia said:
Your understanding is not correct, and is only an opinion based on not knowing what true Word of Faith is really all about. Once again, I am not involved in the "movement", but I completely concur with people who teach what real faith in the word of God is all about.
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My sister, this is not my first rodeo and I assure that because you do not agree with me does not mean that I am incorrect on my understanding of the Word of Faith teaching.

And my I also say that there is no such thing as saying......"I am not involved in the movement"...BUT I agree with their teaching.

Search the Scriptures and you will find in Proverbs 24:12.....
"If you f faint in the day of adversity, Your strength is small. Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man i according to his deeds".

That reminds me of Rev. 3 when Jesus speaks to the churches about being luke warm.
 
Ravindran said:
Brother I don't have much to disagree here.. But I have been trying to keep up with the post.. It has grown pretty large!!

I think we should differentiate between 2 things.. Having riches and seeking riches.. Seeking riches is clearly evil. Bible is black and white about it.. But that does not mean having riches is a bad thing or evil thing. Certainly, it is going to be more tempting for the person.. It is going to pose more challenges for the spiritual growth. That does mean, Christians should forsake richness. If the Christian puts the hope on God and remembers that everything is from heaven above, I don't think there is anything evil in this..
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Absolutly agreed. I have never said that Christians should be poor and homeless. That was never my point.

My point is that this movement is not Biblical in any way which leads to heretical theology.

This is in print and available to all so I think it is permissible to post since it is easily verified and IS NOT MY OPINION.

In his book, The Laws of Prosperity, Kenneth Copeland wrote that.......
“faith is a spiritual force, a spiritual energy, a spiritual power. It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. . . . There are certain laws governing prosperity revealed in God’s Word. Faith causes them to function.”***

Any one of just a little Biblical understanding realizes that this is obviously a completely, heretical, understanding of faith. Later in the same book Copeland wrote that..........
“if you make up your mind . . . that you are willing to live in divine prosperity and abundance, . . . divine prosperity will come to pass in your life. You have exercised your faith.”

You can disagree with me all you want to but according to prosperity theology which I just posted for all of you is that faith is not a theocentric act of the will, or simply trust in God; but rather it is an anthropocentric spiritual force, directed at God. That can not be denied neither can it be explained away or spiritualized so as to be acceptable!!!! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS!!!
YOU look it up and do the work and see what it is that is actually being taught!
(***Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, 19.....Ibid.,41.)
 
Major said:
It is very hot and humid in Central Fl. Thank God we are getting afternoon showers!
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I can definitely agree with this notion. I have been in Central Florida for going on seven years and I don't think I will ever get used to this heat.
 
Major said:
And my I also say that there is no such thing as saying......"I am not involved in the movement"...BUT I agree with their teaching.
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No, you cannot say that, as you smear the true Word of Faith people by your poor understanding of it. ALL Christians should be "Word of Faith". Do you not have faith in the word of God?

Search the Scriptures and you will find in Proverbs 24:12.....
"If you f faint in the day of adversity, Your strength is small. Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man i according to his deeds".

That reminds me of Rev 3 when Jesus speaks to the churches about being luke warm.
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...and this has to do with what?
 
Euphemia said:
No, you cannot say that, as you smear the true Word of Faith people by your poor understanding of it. ALL Christians should be "Word of Faith". Do you not have faith in the word of God?



...and this has to do with what?
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Since when did speaking honestly, and clearly and Biblically become slander??? Because you do not agree it then becomes slander????

YOU said you "were NOT a Word of Faith person........BUT you support all that they do."

You by your admission you are trying to be neutral/luke warm so to speak.

Scripture does not confirm that position hence the words from Proverbs..........
"If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds".
 
Major said:
Since when did speaking honestly, and clearly and Biblically become slander??? Because you do not agree it then becomes slander????

YOU said you "were NOT a Word of Faith person........BUT you support all that they do."

You by your admission you are trying to be neutral/luke warm so to speak.

Scripture does not confirm that position hence the words from Proverbs..........
"If you say, "Surely we did not know this," Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds".
Click to expand...

I don't have to "try" to be neutral. I am neutral. Lukewarmness is not anywhere near or in me!

Major, you and far too many others do not know the truth about what having full faith in the word of God is all about if you would speak so poorly of people who uphold the scriptures and have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so live lives empowered by Him every day.

However, as a human being, I do understand how people in general tend to speak ill of things they do not understand or even fear them.

I agree with many things that people who claim to be "Word of Faith" believe, but because I am ruled by Holy Spirit who gives me discernment, I can trust what He says, grab hold of the truth He points out to me, and spit out any of the bones. That is the freedom we can have in walking in the Spirit. No fear, no smear!
 
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Euphemia said:
I don't have to "try" to be neutral. I am neutral. Lukewarmness is not anywhere near or in me!

Major, you and far too many others do not know the truth about what having full faith in the word of God is all about if you would speak so poorly of people who uphold the scriptures and have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so live lives empowered by Him every day.

However, as a human being, I do understand how people in general tend to speak ill of things they do not understand or even fear them.

I agree with many things that people who claim to be "Word of Faith" believe, but because I am ruled by Holy Spirit who gives me discernment, I can trust what He says, grab hold of the truth He points out to me, and spit out any of the bones. That is the freedom we can have in walking in the Spirit. No fear, no smear!
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But then there are some of us who actually do know the truth. It would be very improper for me to talk of what I do know but I can promise you that I do know of what I speak. Because I do not agree with YOU in no means that I and others are not informed on what we speak of. Then there are those who are threatened when something is said about what they believe.

In fact, if there be any threat at all, it is to the many false doctrines and practices that have no substance to them which riddle the contemporary Christian church today which will be found wanting any leg to stand on after a careful examination. There is the problem in a nut shell. When questioned, become personal and hostile and intimidate others.

This is probably the reason why some people get hot and bothered when the issue of doctrinal integrity is raised - it is simply because many of them are among the multitudes who are unable to articulate their position Scripturally. They find their warm, comfortable positions threatened by the cold, hard realities that will demand an accounting of truth and a commitment to discernment as the Word of God would demand of any of us. No more and no less!

And just as YOU, I also am ruled by Holy Spirit who gives me discernment, and I as well as you do trust what He says, and I do grab hold of the truth He points out to me, and I just as you know how to spit out any of the bones. And just as you said....."that is the freedom we can have in walking in the Spirit."

Now I suggest that you stick to speaking to the question and subject at hand which is "RICHNESS & POVERTY" and that we stop the personal stuff as I am sure we are real close to having this thread closed if we continue like this.

I am more than happy to respond to Biblical positions and doctrinal issues that are addressed to the question posed, but not personal comments.
 
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Major said:
But then there are some of us who actually do know the truth. It would be very improper for me to talk of what I do know but I can promise you that I do know of what I speak. Because I do not agree with YOU in no means that I and others are not informed on what we speak of. Then there are those who are threatened when something is said about what they believe.

In fact, if there be any threat at all, it is to the many false doctrines and practices that have no substance to them which riddle the contemporary Christian church today which will be found wanting any leg to stand on after a careful examination. There is the problem in a nut shell. When questioned, become personal and hostile and intimidate others.

This is probably the reason why some people get hot and bothered when the issue of doctrinal integrity is raised - it is simply because many of them are among the multitudes who are unable to articulate their position Scripturally. They find their warm, comfortable positions threatened by the cold, hard realities that will demand an accounting of truth and a commitment to discernment as the Word of God would demand of any of us. No more and no less!

And just as YOU, I also am ruled by Holy Spirit who gives me discernment, and I as well as you do trust what He says, and I do grab hold of the truth He points out to me, and I just as you know how to spit out any of the bones. And just as you said....."that is the freedom we can have in walking in the Spirit."

Now I suggest that you stick to speaking to the question and subject at hand which is "RICHNESS & POVERTY" and that we stop the personal stuff as I am sure we are real close to having this thread closed if we continue like this.

I am more than happy to respond to Biblical positions and doctrinal issues that are addressed to the question posed, but not personal comments.
Click to expand...

I am not in denial that there is a lot of fluff out there in today's churches. I only speak about what good churches do, and I speak about what I know to be true. As for wealth and poverty, as Jesus is our King, and we are His possessions, we can be assured that though we may fall upon hard times, and while there are impoverished people in the world who come to Christ, He enables us to gain wealth in all areas of life, and that includes the slice of the pie that represents finances. We are lenders and not borrowers. We are the true leaders in the world.

It is when people of strong faith who step out in that faith based upon the word of God and on God's precious promises to them are maligned and labeled that I step up to defend them. Always will.
 
this is so weird.
One guy arguing God gives him $450 suits
Another saying its ok to have Ferarri car.

????

Well, God gave me the gift of salvation and thats worth much more than those things.
anyway, I drive a toyota. Judge me on that. I did sell my old car to another person who needed it, so, its not like I have two. Also, if I do buy a new coat, that means I give my old one away to someone who needs it. If someone gave you a suit and ferrari, that's fine, but if you bought it yourself, boast about it, and not prepared to give it up, then..I don't know. I don't really think that's christian.

we can't boast about our stuff, we can only boast that we are saved by Jesus. and our adornment isn't in the fine clothes we wear (if we have fine clothes) but in our good works....
 
I don't know..ferarris look pretty useless to me. Also ppl would be jealous, steal it, etc.
I guess depends what kind of social circles you live in. I don't see much use for real expensive suits. If they good quality and you need them fine but if you just wearing it to show off how rich you are then no.
 
Major said:
Absolutly agreed. I have never said that Christians should be poor and homeless. That was never my point.

My point is that this movement is not Biblical in any way which leads to heretical theology.

This is in print and available to all so I think it is permissible to post since it is easily verified and IS NOT MY OPINION.

In his book, The Laws of Prosperity, Kenneth Copeland wrote that.......
“faith is a spiritual force, a spiritual energy, a spiritual power. It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. . . . There are certain laws governing prosperity revealed in God’s Word. Faith causes them to function.”***

Any one of just a little Biblical understanding realizes that this is obviously a completely, heretical, understanding of faith. Later in the same book Copeland wrote that..........
“if you make up your mind . . . that you are willing to live in divine prosperity and abundance, . . . divine prosperity will come to pass in your life. You have exercised your faith.”

You can disagree with me all you want to but according to prosperity theology which I just posted for all of you is that faith is not a theocentric act of the will, or simply trust in God; but rather it is an anthropocentric spiritual force, directed at God. That can not be denied neither can it be explained away or spiritualized so as to be acceptable!!!! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS!!!
YOU look it up and do the work and see what it is that is actually being taught!
(***Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, 19.....Ibid.,41.)
Click to expand...

Brother Major,
It has come to be Noon at the ok corral and it is high time me and you settle this biblically once and for all. (( No sarcastic tones or any other ill flavor to this - just a big smile and something we need to do ))

Lets take ONE scripture and one reason you feel it is wrong at a time...Hey remember this is the days of single action revolvers. Sshooter.gif

We can start a thread of our own and walk this out together for who knows Our Heavenly Father may show us that we both are missing the mark. lol Either way it has to benifit others as well as you and I dont ya think ?!

As I have already given you my word in the PM"s some time back that I am not going to get ugly or sarcastic and I have kept my word and I will continue to keep my word as I know you are as well. Praise God for brothers such as you Major. (y)

One rule I would like to propose in this is as follows.....Any time we take a quote from another mans books or papers or what have you we include the entire chapter and any added notes that are there so as to not be forcing what some one else said into our own personal view. Keeping the outsider in total context of what he or she said and how he or she meant it which over rides what we think or believe. AGREED !?!

I hope that you will except this challenge Major for I do beleive it will not only be fun but rewarding as well. I wish they had one of those debate area's where two people sign up and can go at it with out others input unless given permission. Not saying I dont want others to have a say... It just keeps the your mean and you said hateful things and such out of the thread. ;)

Any way let me know Major..I truly beleive we could enjoy this.
I have mine..... 6541_f8b6.jpg
ROFL well I know it does not look like a colt single action........Best I could do.
God Bless You My Friend and Loving Brother
Jim
IMG_20150604_011155.JPG
 
just on this topic..this song reminded me...people laughed at Dolly cos of her handmade coat. Dolly was proud of her coat...I think many of us are proud in that we want the best for ourselves, naturally, others make fun of us for being poor and not looking as good as them. But this comes from a perspective of someone who grew up in poverty. Whats important was not the coat itself but that it was made with love.

 
Lanolin said:
this is so weird.
One guy arguing God gives him $450 suits
Another saying its ok to have Ferarri car.

????

Well, God gave me the gift of salvation and thats worth much more than those things.
anyway, I drive a toyota. Judge me on that. I did sell my old car to another person who needed it, so, its not like I have two. Also, if I do buy a new coat, that means I give my old one away to someone who needs it. If someone gave you a suit and ferrari, that's fine, but if you bought it yourself, boast about it, and not prepared to give it up, then..I don't know. I don't really think that's christian.

we can't boast about our stuff, we can only boast that we are saved by Jesus. and our adornment isn't in the fine clothes we wear (if we have fine clothes) but in our good works....
Click to expand...

Amen Lanolin,
We boast in God and what He does for it is not about us but Him. You know you are sold out to Jesus when some one needs a coat and would like your old one and you give them the new one and keep the old one. For some folks that is simply going to far but I believe that YOU Lanolin would give the new away and keep the old. It is your heart and it shows even if you dont think so.
God Bless and it is nice to see you posting again.
God Bless
 
Lanolin said:
I don't know..ferarris look pretty useless to me. Also ppl would be jealous, steal it, etc.
I guess depends what kind of social circles you live in. I don't see much use for real expensive suits. If they good quality and you need them fine but if you just wearing it to show off how rich you are then no.
Click to expand...

Those were just objects used in this debate. I have niether but if God gave me one or the other I would ENJOY them richly.
Blessings
Jim
 
Lanolin said:
this is so weird.
One guy arguing God gives him $450 suits
Another saying its ok to have Ferarri car.

????

Well, God gave me the gift of salvation and thats worth much more than those things.
anyway, I drive a toyota. Judge me on that. I did sell my old car to another person who needed it, so, its not like I have two. Also, if I do buy a new coat, that means I give my old one away to someone who needs it. If someone gave you a suit and ferrari, that's fine, but if you bought it yourself, boast about it, and not prepared to give it up, then..I don't know. I don't really think that's christian.

we can't boast about our stuff, we can only boast that we are saved by Jesus. and our adornment isn't in the fine clothes we wear (if we have fine clothes) but in our good works....
Click to expand...

ya know Lanolin.....great point, and the reason why God desires for our things to be debit free. If He tells us to give it then we can without any strings or requirements.

and you are totally right that we should boast in what God does for us!

blessings!
 
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Euphemia said:
I am not in denial that there is a lot of fluff out there in today's churches. I only speak about what good churches do, and I speak about what I know to be true. As for wealth and poverty, as Jesus is our King, and we are His possessions, we can be assured that though we may fall upon hard times, and while there are impoverished people in the world who come to Christ, He enables us to gain wealth in all areas of life, and that includes the slice of the pie that represents finances. We are lenders and not borrowers. We are the true leaders in the world.

It is when people of strong faith who step out in that faith based upon the word of God and on God's precious promises to them are maligned and labeled that I step up to defend them. Always will.
Click to expand...

I agree totally with you. I never said that a Christian should live in poverty. Just the opposite is the Bible truth.

As for defending the faith, I also have now for many years done just that and will continue to do so. It has been my calling from the Lord to rightly divide His precious Word and when the Word of God is twisted and misinterpreted that I always step up to defend it. Always have and always will.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Brother Major,
It has come to be Noon at the ok corral and it is high time me and you settle this biblically once and for all. (( No sarcastic tones or any other ill flavor to this - just a big smile and something we need to do ))

Lets take ONE scripture and one reason you feel it is wrong at a time...Hey remember this is the days of single action revolvers. View attachment 1788

We can start a thread of our own and walk this out together for who knows Our Heavenly Father may show us that we both are missing the mark. lol Either way it has to benifit others as well as you and I dont ya think ?!

As I have already given you my word in the PM"s some time back that I am not going to get ugly or sarcastic and I have kept my word and I will continue to keep my word as I know you are as well. Praise God for brothers such as you Major. (y)

One rule I would like to propose in this is as follows.....Any time we take a quote from another mans books or papers or what have you we include the entire chapter and any added notes that are there so as to not be forcing what some one else said into our own personal view. Keeping the outsider in total context of what he or she said and how he or she meant it which over rides what we think or believe. AGREED !?!

I hope that you will except this challenge Major for I do beleive it will not only be fun but rewarding as well. I wish they had one of those debate area's where two people sign up and can go at it with out others input unless given permission. Not saying I dont want others to have a say... It just keeps the your mean and you said hateful things and such out of the thread. ;)

Any way let me know Major..I truly beleive we could enjoy this.
I have mine..... View attachment 1789
ROFL well I know it does not look like a colt single action........Best I could do.
God Bless You My Friend and Loving Brother
Jim
View attachment 1790
Click to expand...

I would love to do this with you!!! I just do not see how it can be done because we will have many others getting involved and the back and forth will get very convoluted and off course.

But if you want to try it I will let you start the thread.........maybe call it, "The OK Coral" and post the Scripture in question that you would like to discuss, ONE at a time and we can go from there.

By the way.......I have TWO single action pistols. One is the pistol my great-great-great grandfather used in the Civil war and I am a really good shot!
 
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