Thank God his power has been distributed to all the body of Christ and not just a few.
Pastor doesn't want members praying or reading bible together
- Thread starter pavilion103
- Start date
Being made "perfect" in Christ is not the same thing as that person fully understanding what that means. Maturity comes and takes years of being taught by the Spirit of God, even though we are already "perfect, and complete in him".
It is not enough I think to just assert something when I have shown enough scriptures in an argument that has nothing to do with the power of God but to the wisdom of God as to the building of his temple .
In Christ
gerald
Are you trying to assume that the power of God is not used in building up of his Church? Whose power is it then that changes a person from one degree of Glory to another? Jesus Christ is the "power" and "Wisdom" of God!!! (1 Cor 1:24)
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We are ALL disciples, and therefore we are all called to disciple! That makes us leaders in the world, as Jesus calls us the salt of the earth and the light of the world! There's no getting away from that responsibility as the Body of Christ on this earth.
Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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It is absurd to believe that we are no longer in need of the five-fold ministry. That will always be a necessity in the Body of Christ until Jesus comes again.
We are not I think talking about the power of God . But the difference between gifts and ministry .
and before that how the church and believers of what ever maturity need the ministers as listed by God to the church for the specific responsibility as stated.
What you seem to be saying and others that we do not need anybody to teach or minister to the church or rather tot hose who assume they are now mature enough to not need any teachers (in this instance)
It is not for you or I to demand that God conform to your thinking . But we to His and the Lord said "I that is the Lord ;will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
When I look at the tabernacle made with hands I read of an exactitude of its construction as also in the order of it as also in its set up.
I read that not all had a part in its construct but ALL had some gift to give to it .
The Lord then will not be as loose with the tabernacle made not with hands then .For he changeth not .
To THAT end then he ahs given to the church ministers as so listed to that end .
The power of God is a very broad brush .
But if you are implying that as the power of God is at work in all .I would not disagree with you .
If yous ay the power of |God is workign IN ALL the same way .There is no scripture to sustain that idea.
For an example and I admit it is an extreme case but is not without bearing on this matter.
Those who opposed Moses .Did they not also claim they were as holy as Moses? and had then the same rights or rather authority as he?
Did they not all come out of Egypt? Did they not all pass through the red sea ate etc etc . Yte it was not given to them to lead but Moses .
What of King Huziah? Was he not King of Israel? and greatly helped of the Lord?
Yes without a doubt ,
Yet when eh grew strong he forgot from whence his strength came from and sought to do the office of a priest that he had no right to do.
and went to offer incense unto the Lord . God judged him and he was struck with leprosy for his presumption.
Are they not given for our ensample?
He was given power of God to be King.
They the power of God to be priests .
Is the hand the foot?
Yet is it not of the same body?
but can the foot minister as the hand does?
But cannot the hand give succor to the foot?
and the foot bare the hand?
Paul said the moire he loves the less he was loved .
He suffered as much from the body as he did from unbelievers almost .
and said he was the offscouring of the earth.
You want to be a minister ? then expect to eb cast out and reviled .To be set apart misunderstood reviled and oft forsaken .
Men who are called to the ministry are made of God are from God and lead men to God.
Hirelings are not so and as they are not from God they lead men away from God.
I have perhaps met one man who I considered fitted the pattern of a true Apostle . He denied it .
Yet I have not heard or seen of another in England that comes close .
I have heard popenjays fire crackers false apostles and self proclaimed prophets who make merchandise of Gods people and promise them what God has not.
Who teach damnable heresies and doctrines of devils . Yet this is to a church that boasts it has need of nothing but is so easyly deceived .
Primarily because there is so little reality in the church they have no experience to judge or measure it by .Or have so little of good teaching they cannot tell from the false.
I am not going to keep repeating myself fro there is no need ive written it down here .
So unless you can answer or resolve what the scripture says and what you and others say .I cannot reply again.
in Christ
gerald
I am not talking about disciples or our attitude to the world and the lost.
Im talking about the church and the leadership within it .
in Christ
gerald
I doubt very much that one can judge the true Church in the harsh ways I read here, for the Lord loves her and she is spotless, and without wrinkle, ready for her Bridegroom. You are talking about individual groups, where you should be speaking highly of the Body of Christ. He knows who are His.
I don't know about your God or the fellowship you have experienced, but my God is fully capable and works well among His people, providing gifted teachers and leaders for our benefit, each individual body outfitted by Him for service in all areas of ministry ---with excellence, because Holy Spirit is allowed to work His way, and not man.
Brother, you can believe anything you want as you see it. I for one see things much differently than you. Who is right. Let the readers on this forum decide for themselves, for they also have the same Spirit of God that testifies to it's truth.
Perchance you have read in my post was not there in spirit .
But I do suggest that you go to rev chapter 2 etc. and see what the Spirit "sayeth to the churches"
Which in the main the churches have rejected that it applies to them but says it is for the world .
I refuse to be a soothsayer.
But rather will point out what the scriptures say .
But your argument has been reduced to an accusation to me .
I also refuse to reduce it to that .
I have argued that the church needs teachers and were and are given to the church for its perfection.
Some here have argued that they have no need of teachers based on the one verse that says "you have no need of any to teach you"
I have argued that it is a misunderstanding of scripture fro clearly if that was true then God would not have among others given to the church teachers.
It was then returned saying that in effect that the same were so mature they had no need of any to teach them as they could teach themselves .
and by another argument that all were leaders . They to the world .I was speaking of the church and that not all were leaders .
Then by another diversion one spoke of the power of God . I pointed out that the power fo God was for some in one way and in others another .
Others pointed or rather mixed up gifts with ministries as so listed.
I then pointed out that a gift is not the same as a ministry as is listed.
One given for example of the gift of prophecy does not make them a prophet .
What more can I argue?
When none is either returned or answered but with each step forward in my argument another simply raises up a quite different subject. That too being answered another is so raised.
thus we now come to my apparent harshness and your perceptions of it.
The church in general is NOT ready .
and by the scriptures says so .
For one it says "I am rich increased with goods and in need of nothing " The Lords words by you then may seem harsh also .
"Ye are wretched poor and blind and in need of eye salve and dont even know it "
and if you look at all the churches mentioned which reflect all the church ages then to all but one he says repent!
to the last he says "behold I stand at the door and knock and if any man has ears to hear and opens the door to THEM will I come and the father and sup with him."
Not to the rest who do not have ears to hear .
The church says that does not apply to us it applies to the world and the unsaved.
But the scripture says "LISTEN to what the Spirit sayeth to the CHURCHES."
and in another place "make sure you understand"!
They whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and it does not seem pleasant to the one being chastened.
God is in for the long haul and is building a church and will have a bride that will last for all eternity .
if all was well as you would claim then let me ask you this .
if the church is the salt of the earth and the salt is to stop the 'meat' from rotting . But all you can see is corruption in all its various forms . Where then is the salt?
Yet I bare you witness even here that men are leaning more upon their own understanding than trusting in the Lord .
Yet they too confess and I would not disagree that they are children of God.
Judgment begins at the house of God .
before it comes to the world.
We are not judged unto condemnation.
For we have passed from death to life and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
But what I have said is the truth .
I would also say that the church does not know God "who is from the beginning" They have but "heard of Him"
How can it be otherwise when men and most of the church it seems does not believe Him who is in the beginning?
But have for A peace sake compromised with the world and mixed truth with error .
You may say that has nothing to do with our salvation?
It may not if you reduce that Salvation to being but BORNagain.
But what says the scriptures ? are we not a NEW creation? Jesus beign the first BORN of a new creation?
Then I argue that it does have a very important place in our salvation and which John places in context of "little children" to young men and to fathers who know Him who is from the beginning "
But here again I have simply developed the argument that started with the need of all the ministries of God given to the church and I you we the church are in need of them all .
in Christ
gerald
It is a good thing that the truth is not democratic . But let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
But let each not be persuaded by his own mind but as the scriptures say it .
You say you see things different but do not show how you do or how you came to see it that way .
What you charge me with then does it not apply to you ? For while I have argued my case .You have not; and while I make no claim of infalibility though some foolishly do .You have not proved me false at all. By any argument that undermines mine .
in Christ
gerald
The Body of Christ, the Bride is always ready, whenever Jesus is given the go-ahead to come get her.
I see the wonderful savour of salt and the glory of the light shining forth from the Body of Christ---everywhere. I see by this thread that it is a matter of personal perception, whether one chooses to see the glass half-empty or half-full.
To you, the glass is pretty much empty.
Every Spirit-filled and Spirit-led church operates in all the gifts and ministries.
.
Be ye also ready said Jesus to his disciples .
and there will be some who are not ready .
and will be like the foolish virgins whos false expectation as to they being ready was the reason of their folly .
But then again another message to the church that says its not for us but to the world and the unsaved .
Praise the Lord then if you are ready .
The vast majority are not.
In Christ
gerald
I don't think you can judge about majority. God knows who are His own, because He looks upon the heart. Everyone who is His, by accepting Jesus Christ by faith, yet you may not think so, will be taken to be with Him.
.
"If we would judge ourselves we would not be judged " I am not judging in condemnation but stating things as they are .
You will therefore have to look at what you say here in the light of what is written in revelation and what "the Spirit sayeth to the churches" and consider.....
In Christ
gerald
Indeed it is a use of a form of judgment to declare that the majority of the Body of Christ is less than what God says it is.
I choose to see things how God views them.
Yet you do not seem to be willing to see things in the light of what the Spirit sayeth to the churches?
The church is a prodigal church.
For it is NOT what the first church was like when it was born on the day of Pentecost and the Bride cannot be anything less than the church then.
Pray tell also what does God say about the church . Present?
and how does those churches most of which needed to repent fit with your perception of it?
and if the Lord is OUTSIDE the church knocking on its door .Is that not a call to repent to a church that thinks he is inside?
For after the resurection what door was a barrier to Him?
How is it then he is outside and knocking on the door?
Then the knockign on the door is to ALL but the promise is to them that have ears to hear and opens the door .
in Christ
gerald
I am still learning! I just wish I could remember what it is I learned!
Just yesterday I was standing at the bottom of the stairs trying to remember if I was going up or if I had just came down.