Well said!
Pastor doesn't want members praying or reading bible together
- Thread starter pavilion103
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Well said!
Excellent !!
Seems to me that there is knowledge to be gained with the gathering of believers in Christ.
I always thought I knew a little, and then came grandchildren. My 6 year old Caleb has already told me that he knows everything.
Matthew 18:20
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
I think that the group should meet with the pastor to share some of the thoughts and scriptures that are being shared in the meetings. Also, is there a way that the pastor or a member of ministry can be a part of the meetings. When you are open with your intentions, and what is is you are doing. you are preventing false doctrine. do not be discouraged, it is a good thing to be in the company of equals, friends like minded people, and Gods community. Good fellowship is not easy to find. There is a difference in being submissive and being subjective. Don't allow any man to alter the growth of your faith, authority figure or not.
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
I think that the group should meet with the pastor to share some of the thoughts and scriptures that are being shared in the meetings. Also, is there a way that the pastor or a member of ministry can be a part of the meetings. When you are open with your intentions, and what is is you are doing. you are preventing false doctrine. do not be discouraged, it is a good thing to be in the company of equals, friends like minded people, and Gods community. Good fellowship is not easy to find. There is a difference in being submissive and being subjective. Don't allow any man to alter the growth of your faith, authority figure or not.
I appreciate you writing this out for me
;however, what you wrote does not illustrate how this plays out in the in the Christian life. Can I have some real life examples of how this helps your walk with the Lord? I do not want to assume I know what you believe when I have it all wrong.
I appreciate you writing this out for me
We must always remember that it is the "anointing" that teaches us all things, not man.
1Jn 2:27.. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
God "anoints" men with his Spirit so as to teach his children, until they are able to discern this same anointing within themselves. The five fold ministry was given "until" we become "mature" in our understanding, and then you will be able to learn from this exact same "anointing" that's in you!!
Why the "anointing?"
The word "anointed" means "Christ", and the word "Christ" means "anointed." You are anointed because Jesus Christ lives inside you.
Who lives in Christ?
Col 2:8.. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9.. For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10.. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
All the fullness of the Godhead lives, and dwells in Christ, and you are COMPLETE in him!!!! Baby Christians do not know this. They have to be taught by those to whom God choose to teach. Some know this today, but they do not believe it, because they do not know how to believe, this also must be taught.
God himself is our teacher, not man even thou God anoints man to be a teacher, but it is only for a season until that person whom he teaches becomes "mature", to be able to hear from the Spirit of God himself. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the ones who teach his Church.
John 6:44.. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45.. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The divine order in how God teaches us. You hear the Father. He teaches you something. Then he takes you to the scriptures, and confirms it. Then the Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth.
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This a common mistake .
The ministers of God as listed in Ephesians are to perfect the body prepare the Bride and till we all come to a unity of the faith etc.
When the scriptures say if the Spirit dwells in you , you have no need of any to teach you . It does not mean that you need no mean to teach you now or later .
For God has given to the church teachers .
Not all are Apostles ,prophets evangelists teachers and pastors and those that promote the idea that all are or can be leaders of the church or ministers are misleading at best .
Mature Christians still need not be in that list .
If all are leaders who then follows?
and if all are striving to lead few then are striving to follow .
But does not Paul then say you still need to be taught when you should be teachers?
Yes he does .
But a careful reading of the scriptures shows that ALL should become teachers of the MILK of the Word.
To be able to lead another to Christ even as you were so led and to teach the basics of The faith .
But as you will see he said you are still in need to be taught them yourselves ." For ye are yet carnal."
so in what way are no longer need to be taught?
As to what is good and what is evil .As to what is true and what is error.
For by practice we learn good from evil and if the Spirit of truth abides in us we do by Him "know the spirit of error"
Thus by the Holy Spirit that abides in all believers we blindly follow no one .
But the same Spirit that has led the ministers so he preaches or teaches and by the same Spirit the congregation is led and comes to the same understanding of scripture . Hence that we may all come to a unity of the faith.
The same Spirit that bore witness to our spirits then that we are children of God also bears witness to the truth as it is in Christ and if not bears witness also .
Thus the whole body is built up and edified by the Word of God and the Spirit of God .
Does that mean we cannot in our own studies learn also from God? Of course not . The more we study the scriptures the more we make the job easier for the minister as well as become less passive observers of meetings as it were . But in prayerful understanding and openness to God endeavour to back up the minister in his ministry in any manner the Lord may lead.
For in a meeting we are not to be simply observers and hearers . But are to be; if not Ministers as it were but ministers to the body as the Spirit of God moves and works through us . Every joint supplying.
This is not easy to either write or grasp and some may think im saying as much as yourself .
But in any congregation there are the unsaved the saved the carnal and the spiritual . and of various measures of maturity and understanding.
In as much and by the same measure we are spiritual and have understanding we by our presence either add to the meeting or need to come to be so.
If then there is a good strong nucleus of spiritually minded believers of the same mind as the minister then he is not only helped but also it is the Spirit of God who dominates or rules the meeting not carnality or worse.
I know of one church who had not had a pastor for 5 or more years . One day they had oppurtunity to invite a true man of God to become pastor to the church.
But there was a 'ruling ' group or mind in the church that objected to the length of his sermons . and began to look at thier watches when they thought he had gone on too long .
Understanding they had not had a pastor for 5 years he continued undeterred .
They then began while he was still preaching to stand up and start packing away chairs and no one it seems in the rest of the congregation objected to them doing so.
After a meeting with the church this man of God resigned .
One member fo the congregation publicly said this was not of God.
No it wasnt . The Lord wanted them to have a pastor .
Its simply boiled down to the fact that they did not .
So he rightly left .
Too many churches have their own traditions which are but straight jackets to the Holy Spirit .
That is NOT to say meetings must be conducted in self control dignity and good order. But it should be the order of the Holy Spirit not of man .
So instead of the Holy Spirit leading the meeting it is the traditions of the church that dictates what should happen.
many a church must needs finish on a Sunday morning by 12 noon(?) because the dinner is in the oven.
Others feel a sermon more than 20 minutes long is an imposition on their time.
Others have music above the preaching of the Word of God.
I know a man who reading from Hebrews 1:1 as his text for the sermon began with "GOD," and spoke on God for 2 hours.
and all ,of it was so good I still remember it when I use the word' God' myself .
Others have no perminant minister but have revolving ministers and they do not get to know the sheep and the sheep do not get to know them.
and so on.
If any two are gathered in my name ,Does not mean all together geographically .
For people can be in the same place geographically but not all in the same place physcolgically .
While two people or more can be seperated geographically but are of the same mind in the Lord and are gathered in his name in the presence of God and before the throne of grace.
in Christ
gerald
We as children of the King are all leaders. Who follows? The unsaved---right into the kingdom with us, as they follow Jesus, to whom we have led them!
Holy Spirit empowers us to teach, and the scriptures teach us this point: that we no longer as in the days of the Old Covenant, need men to follow after for truth. We know all truth through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Oops, posted twice! 
Then you will have to reconcile what you have said and what the scriptures say .
For not all are apostles as not all are the hand etc.
Paul said to CHRISTIANS "be ye followers of me as also I am of Christ "
as I pointed out in my post all the children of God are supposed to become teachers of the milk of the word as was taught by Paul in Corinth.
But you needs must reconcile the fact that God has given to the churches for instance teachers to teach the BODY of believers . With what you say .
The children of Israel were given for our ensample .
Was not Moses the leader of them? and then the elders after?
Not all are elders nor all pastors etc. Paul also teaches that a christian be tried and tested before lest they like Satan fall out of pride .
It is oft taught by false apostles and self proclaimed prophets that all can be leaders and teach it as so .
But as with much of their seductive doctrines they teach error and lead the people of God astray.
Its a bold statement that says we know all truth through the ministry of the Holy Spirit .
It is actualy written he will LEAD us into all truth . and to be led to arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth you must be willing to follow .
and as i pointed out the scriptures teach that primarily it si through those ministers and true ministers of God that the church comes to a unity of understanding ="of the faith"
and the church is perfected .
I do not see anywhere that all are leaders .
In truth "the government is on His shoulders"
in Christ
gerald
Brother the "five fold ministry" was not given by Jesus to last for ever. It was given "until" the Church would come to "maturity" also known as "perfect".
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (mature) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Are babies being born on planet earth every day? Of course they are. Do they need to be taught, and given an education? they sure do. Does this child stay in school their entire life? No, Only until they grow to maturity, and learn to teach themselves.
if you think is as you put it mature then I fear you need to look again .
"Till we all come to the unity fo the faith unto the perfect man unto the fullness and stature fo Christ "
I would point you to the church at Ephasis which was the only church the Lord said nothing about the need to repent .
Yet Paul still prayed for them "that the eyes of their understanding may be opened................"
and did not Paul have to rebuke Peter publiclly? fro his hipocracy?
as to perfection we are already in Christ made perfect but are also on the way to perfection.
But the suggestion that we at some point do not need those minsters of God is quite frankly absurd.
It would be liek saying at some point we do not need our feet or our hands,
The last day church on the one hand things it si rich increased in goods and in need of nothing , The Lord says quite differently and on the other the Lord says he is OUTSIDE the church knocking on the door .
in christ
gerald
Brother, what is the desired end result here? "Perfection" which means "mature". A perfect man is a mature man. Is this possible on this earth?
Christ in us is already perfect, but our actions do not match who we already are. Why? Because we have to be "taught" who this person is in us that is perfect. We need teachers to explain how to look into this "mirror" and not forget what manner of man we are, so our actions match to who we are.
Paul spoke to those made perfect . But if he said he had not reached perfection and if he did not know all there was to know about beign made conformable unto the Lords death as also knowing the power of His resurecection. Then I would hazard the thought that what you claim is maturity and perfection is not what he has in mind?
and if we are to follow him as he followed Christ then I think there is yet still more land to be posessed .
I would also argue that the church in general does not know God Or if they do it is as "little children " not as" ye fathers ." and very few indeed have overcome the wicked one because the Word of God dwells in them richly and abides .
The church has made the milk of the Word the meat and has justified the wanderign in the wilderness for 40 years as the NORM of a christain life ,By the scriptures I say they who do so are wrong .
For it only took them 40 DAYS to reach the promised land .
#and let us suppose that what you say applies to those who crossed into the promised land . Then my reading of scripture does not then tell me they were made perfect either .
In Christ we are a new creation. In THAT regard we are as perfect as anew born child is perfect and as the child grows from little children to young men and unto fathers each are perfect in Christ but also being perfected .
You suggest that a person can reach a place of perfection that he needs not need to be taught any more by any one and quote the scripture " ye have no need of any to teach you " But that out of context denies the verse that God has given to the church teachers.
You then argue a person only needs teachers till he is perfected .I assume(?) using that verse in Romans as beign taught of a school master as of the law?
That is not the same at all if you are .
For the law of sin and death is like a teacher that leads us FROM sin and unto Christ .
The Spirit of truth which is the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ imparts the righteosness of Christ to him who is imputed with the righteousness of Christ through faith in him.
But then we are perfected even as we are taught .I do not sday we cannot learn from our own studies ,I do not say we cannot be taught by the Holy Spirit and led into all truth .
I simply say you cnanot be perfected as in Christ without those ministers .
and that not all even mature christians are called to be those ministers either .
For as I said not all are the foot or the hands
and not I but the scriptures.
There are waters up to the ankles waters up to the loins and waters to swim in.
Even a mature man who has learnt to swim may well swim the channel though many cannot ,But no one is going to swim the pacific.
He needs must a ship.
in Christ
gerald
What is this "five fold ministry"? Eph 4:11 is but a partial list of gifts. Teachers must still be students. The learning never stops.
1 John 2:27- "any man" can be also "any certain man". The Holy Spirit teaches us through tools or conduits connected to us. This can be the Bible or inspired people, which is how the Bible came to be, thru inspired people. Later in 1 John 4:1 we learn it is the spirits we need to discern between. Test the teachings to see what holds up and agrees with scripture already proven. Paul also says, "Prove all things". Spirits are constantly trying to instill ideas (teaching) into our minds. Whether from another person (man) or something else.
You should not confuse "gifts" with ministries"
Some may prophecy but not all are prophets .
Prophecy is a gift . a Prophet is a ministry .
Nor are we 'conduits' That is more akin to spiritualism than the scriptures .and while I do not think you had that in mind .Our concepts must be of scripture and that of God than by any other source .
A pastor is not always a teacher though he may teach. An evangelist is not a pastor though he might be both .
An apostle is neither a teacher or evenagelist though he might do all three.
There are the gifts of the Spirit and there are the ministry of the Spirit.
ALL ,may as the Spirit wills manifest the gifts of the Spirit .
But we should allow our thinking that the gifts are proof of anything .,It is the FRUITS that we identify .For by thier fruits ye nshall know them .Not their gifts .
Indeed a man may manifest the gifts but if the fruit is not there the MAN " is nothing " not the gifts are nothing .
If if a man can do this or that "but have not love ,HE is nothing"
The ministry;s of God then are a different matter entirely .
True as I said before we are to never blindly follow no man .
But that does not mean we follow no man . It means we do with the eyes of our understanding OPEN!
The true servants of God those ministers of God will by their fruits be known and they are not ordained by man but are ordained by God.
in Christ
gerald
All Christians are ever learning even those who are "mature" in the Lord. Who is the one that confirms to us what we hear to be truth? It is the "anointing". Young Christians do not understand this, and need to be taught these things. We do not need a man to tell us what is true, as that is the Holy Spirits job, to bear witness to the truth. Can we learn things from a man or woman of God? Yes, but it is not from the person we learn it, but the anointing of God in them. The work of the ministry is not limited to just five ministry gifts given by Christ to the Church but it is what all are suppose to do, by building up the body of Christ as each one does it's part by ministering to it self in love.
Gifts are one thing ministry is another .
Stephen was "full ,of faith and wisdom" but only a deacon. Yet was able to confound his contenders and rebuke the religionists with authority and power. Became the first maryter. He was not an Apostle .
in Christ
gerald